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December 9th, 2013, 11:21
Originally Posted by JonNik View Post
Nah think about it! they are unique creatures fearsome and special encounters meant to keep you from high danger areas and providing special rewards (or guarding them) and a special feeling of accomplishment when you defeat them.

But yeah, maybe a tiny bit of a stretch
In my experience, Gothic wasn't so much about strategy as it was about having enough hit points and a big enough sword/bow

But I'd say the combat system, overall, is more player-driven than most RPGs - and I see your point
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December 9th, 2013, 11:29
Oh, I forgot to mention another key similarity between Diablo and Dark Souls. Both games are extremely punishing when it comes to player death.

Diablo is worse, actually, because you lose all your gear if you're not careful.

Difference being that Diablo has "Normal/Nightmare" modes - where Dark Souls starts on "Hell"

Most people confuse Diablo with mindless clicking because they've never played Hell when the game first arrived

People who understand Diablo know that Hell is the real game - and Normal/Nightmare are the tutorials.
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December 9th, 2013, 11:32
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I did forget that levels are randomly generated in Diablo, that's true. Since I'm not that much into architecture - and much more into finding and interacting with stuff, I don't think the exploration varies THAT much in Dark Souls from random levels. But if you're into architecture and nice (often) empty vistas - I understand why'd disagree.
You're just contradicting yourself. You like exploration but you don't like architecture? The 3D architecture of polygons that makes up the whole world? But you like finding and interacting with stuff? Finding, as in discovering and using a secret? What dark souls is all about?


Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Well, if time and resources were infinite - I would take combat to a much, much higher level than Dark Souls.
Me too. Which is much, much, much, much, much higher than Witcher 2 or Skyrim.
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
But what I'm saying is that if Witcher 3 could be Witcher and have more significant loot distinction, I'd be fine with it. It's not a big deal to me, because I don't expect Dark Souls when I play Witcher.
Ok, so you actually agree with me all along?

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Personally, I get bored with dark, dark, dark and gritty, gritty, gritty. I like variety - and I love lush forests and stuff like that.
Well, dark and gritty with two "evil" options is pretty much Witcher. Maybe you don't like Witcher any more than I do?
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Dark Souls + Skyrim in an ideal world would be better than just Skyrim - but not that much better.
Better enough, though.
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
As I said, I think Skyrim has much better stealth - and it also has MUCH better archery. I also MUCH prefer the perks over dreary stats - and I know that stats matter a lot in Dark Souls.
Stats? Not really. I've won the game with a level 1 - never raising my stats. Because Its mostly a game about…
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I like new toys in my progression - not incremental increases.
New toys. Loot. The same loot I hope Witcher3 gets. Loot that changes gameplay in the same way Dark Souls weapons change it.
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Skyrim is a much, much better games for my tastes than Dark Souls could ever hope to be, but to each his own.
You don't know that.
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
It doesn't trump Skyrim when it comes to stealth, archery or mounted combat - now does it?
Not really, no.
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Probably why I got sick of Dark Souls so quickly, because I'd already played Demon's Souls until I couldn't take it anymore.
A lot has been tweaked to make the game less frustrating. Like unlimited carry weight so you can collect every item, the Estus Flask instead of grinding for grass.
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December 9th, 2013, 11:37
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post

I'm the sort of person who thinks that Diablo is also very, very similar to Hellgate London - for instance, even though HGL has a third person perspective and much more "player-driven" combat.

Some people consider those two games very different, and perhaps because they don't think so much in "design document/premise" terms as I do.
Whatever! Diablo IS very similar to Hellgate: London. But Hellgate isn't similar to Dark souls, either. Who considers them different?! They're both made by Bill Roper and they both…
Originally Posted by SirJames
Diablo: An Isometric, randomly generated level design, left-click spamfest with randomly generated item prefix/suffix system and very limited inventory space. Dark Souls has none of these features! They're as far separated in systems/design as any two RPGs can be.
DA, I think its time to admit you just don't like Dark Souls cos you got your ass handed to you and ragequit and missed out on the best game to hit PC in years. Don't be mad! Get back on the horse, you can do it!
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December 9th, 2013, 11:42
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
You're just contradicting yourself. You like exploration but you don't like architecture? The 3D architecture of polygons that makes up the whole world? But you like finding and interacting with stuff? Finding, as in discovering and using a secret? What dark souls is all about?
I like physical objects and I like "natural environments" a lot more than empty hallways with non-interactive objects that have loot in them.

Ok, so you actually agree with me all along?
I don't think so.

Well, dark and gritty with two "evil" options is pretty much Witcher. Maybe you don't like Witcher any more than I do?
I like Witcher 2 a lot.

Stats? Not really. I've won the game with a level 1 - never raising my stats. Because Its mostly a game about…
Sounds even worse.

New toys. Loot. The same loot I hope Witcher3 gets. Loot that changes gameplay in the same way Dark Souls weapons change it.
You mean weapons with different stats? Sure.

You don't know that.
We don't really know anything, that's true.

A lot has been tweaked to make the game less frustrating. Like unlimited carry weight so you can collect every item, the Estus Flask instead of grinding for grass.
I don't recall that being a big issue for me in Demon's Souls. Surely you can come up with something better?
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December 9th, 2013, 11:44
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Oh, I forgot to mention another key similarity between Diablo and Dark Souls. Both games are extremely punishing when it comes to player death.

Diablo is worse, actually, because you lose all your gear if you're not careful.

Difference being that Diablo has "Normal/Nightmare" modes - where Dark Souls starts on "Hell"

Most people confuse Diablo with mindless clicking because they've never played Hell when the game first arrived

People who understand Diablo know that Hell is the real game - and Normal/Nightmare are the tutorials.
I've played plenty of Diablo. I had a level 80something Barbarian in D2 ladder so I understand Hell difficulty, I've got a barb/wizard at 60 in D3. It's still a leftclick fest, only its all about loot. Loot which doesn't change the gameplay from weapon to weapon, but just your attributes like damage or resists.

Dark Souls starts on New Game then goes to New Game+, then NG++, NG+++…..NG++++++.
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December 9th, 2013, 11:45
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
Whatever! Diablo IS very similar to Hellgate: London. But Hellgate isn't similar to Dark souls, either. Who considers them different?! They're both made by Bill Roper and they both…
No, Diablo wasn't made by Bill Roper - he was just one man on the team. He did make some unfortunate decisions for Hellgate, though. Especially when it comes to PR and marketing.

DA, I think its time to admit you just don't like Dark Souls cos you got your ass handed to you and ragequit and missed out on the best game to hit PC in years. Don't be mad! Get back on the horse, you can do it!
If that's the only way you can imagine someone not being particularly fond of Dark Souls - you're kinda supporting my point about your position on it
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December 9th, 2013, 11:50
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
I've played plenty of Diablo. I had a level 80something Barbarian in D2 ladder so I understand Hell difficulty, I've got a barb/wizard at 60 in D3. It's still a leftclick fest, only its all about loot. Loot which doesn't change the gameplay from weapon to weapon, but just your attributes like damage or resists.

Dark Souls starts on New Game then goes to New Game+, then NG++, NG+++…..NG++++++.
So, you understand that your character build in D2 was essential as well? You could build your entire character around specific loot setups. Loot could change everything.

Loot wasn't "random" in terms of planning. It was just not pre-ordained to drop at specific locations.

Again, the difference between Dark Souls and Diablo when it comes to combat - is that Dark Souls is player-driven and Diablo is character-driven. PRIMARILY, as obviously both character and player matter to some extent in both.
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December 9th, 2013, 11:54
Originally Posted by DA
I like new toys in my progression - not incremental increases.
Originally Posted by SirJames
New toys. Loot. The same loot I hope Witcher3 gets. Loot that changes gameplay in the same way Dark Souls weapons change it.
Originally Posted by DA
You mean weapons with different stats? Sure.
Are you listening or just arguing with everything I say because you're jealous of how I clocked Dark Souls with a level 1 and you couldn't beat the first boss?

I mean:

Originally Posted by SirJames
Aww, c'mon now. What weapons do you get in witcher? Sword and Silver Sword and a few stances. I mastered it all too quickly. In Dark Souls every weapon has different animations reaching different ranges and normal, slashing, piercing, thrusting versions of physical damage. Then on top of that you can use the weapons one or two handed which changes the moves again. You pick which to use based on your environment like narrow corridors you dont want wide arcs or you'll hit the wall which will break your swing… So that's two "stances" already, if you like. But then there's ANOTHER set of animations for using a weapon in your offhand, giving you the full three stances from W1. But not just sword and silver sword plus a bunch of potions - you have loads of straight swords, greatswords, axes, maces, curved swords, thrusting swords, ultra greatswords, curved greatswords and polearms - Each with unique moves sets from eachother. Not just sword and silver sword!!
You're the one who likes the incremental just stats increases that you don't like!
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December 9th, 2013, 11:59
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
If that's the only way you can imagine someone not being particularly fond of Dark Souls - you're kinda supporting my point about your position on it
No, the point is everything you say you like in an RPG Dark Souls has. You don't seem to have a real reason for not liking the game, so I assume you fall into the category of people who just couldn't step up the the challenge and not one of those who could and consequentially found an immensely rewarding and replayable game therein.

And then when it comes down to it my whole point to begin with you'd agree with if they had the time and money to add it. But you don't care if they do or not because you don't want it to be like Dark Souls. Only you actually DO want it to be like Dark Souls, only in a format that doesn't kick your ass and make you ragequit.
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December 9th, 2013, 11:59
Yes, I know you're in love with that aspect of Dark Souls. As I said several times already, if weapons could be as distinct in other games without losing something - I'd be fine with it. Stats include stuff like weight, damage type and speed.

Diablo has similar stats - and weapons inflict different kinds of damage, have different speeds and weight. It's just not animated in a 3D world with "real weight".

I know you think that's a big deal, but to me it's not THAT great.

I still prefer an interesting character progression system, though.
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December 9th, 2013, 12:01
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
No, the point is everything you say you like in an RPG Dark Souls has. You don't seem to have a real reason for not liking the game, so I assume you fall into the category of people who just couldn't step up the the challenge and not one of those who could and consequentially found an immensely rewarding and replayable game therein.
That, or you suck at putting yourself in the shoes of people who're not irrationally attached to everything in Dark Souls - who're able to see where exploration, story and NPC interaction falter in it.

I know which I'm betting on

If you want examples of good exploration, look towards games like Fallout 3 or Skyrim - where you find unique stories with appropriate environs that go along with them. In Dark Souls - you explore mostly empty hallways or rooms with the same breakable tables over and over, and you're lucky if you find an entire sentence printed on the floor now and again. Sure, the ARCHITECTURE is nice - but that's not at all enough for me.

Exploration, to me, is not finding loot, loot and more loot. Just as I'm not interested in combat, combat and more combat.

The NPCs are deliberately opaque and vague - which I find boring. I don't care to imagine my story - I want it to be told.
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December 9th, 2013, 12:13
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
That, or you suck at putting yourself in the shoes of people who're not irrationally attached to everything in Dark Souls - who're able to see where exploration, story and NPC interaction falter in it.

I know which I'm betting on
But you're the one who hasn't played long enough to explore in order to find the NPCs and items which build a story slowly like a mystery. Like Myst, which I know you liked. How do you know the game falters in these areas if you don't get to them.

I put myself in your shoes and I deduct that if you were able to beat the combat challenges you'd have got to the story, and therefore you have not because you were not. You died, spat your dummy out and said the game sucks.

If you got to Hell in diablo and think thats where the game starts then what do you care about story, really? There's no exploration, the levels are random and you forgot about it. Shows how much you love exploration, really.

I'm not irrationally attached to DS, I can think of so many ways to improve upon it, but its the game which comes closest to the ideal RPG for me and I think RPGs need to work in that direction and not become like world of warcraft or something.

The way WoW handles quests is horrible. They're meaningless. I think finding a quest should be like finding a super rare artifact. Like in MajorMUD when you went on your allignment quest to commander Markus and it was such a big deal and you were so excited. Not just filling your quest log with crappy tasks for chumps and grinding them all out.
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December 9th, 2013, 12:24
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
But you're the one who hasn't played long enough to explore in order to find the NPCs and items which build a story slowly like a mystery. Like Myst, which I know you liked. How do you know the game falters in these areas if you don't get to them.
Because I played Demon's Souls for a LONG time and beat most of it - and there's no way someone with your attitude can convince me that Dark Souls is an entirely different game.

There's no evidence to support it whatsoever. It's the same engine, the same developers, and the hours I spent with it felt EXACTLY the same except for the fact that it wasn't one hub connected to 4 areas.

Official reviews emphasise the non-linearity as the primary difference as well - and the developers were always clear about keeping the formula intact.

I remember people claiming that Demon's Souls had a great story as well - and that exploration was interesting.

I don't think it had a great story and I don't think exploration was all that interesting.

I do appreciate that you could "unlock" different entrances to levels as a shortcut (much like Diablo, incidentally) - and that you had machinery that operated doors in a 3D environment. That was cool - but it's not really the kind of exploration I value the most.

I put myself in your shoes and I deduct that if you were able to beat the combat challenges you'd have got to them, and therefore you have not because you were not. You died, spat your dummy out and said the game sucks.
From what I know of you, you have quite a lot of life to live before you could put yourself in my shoes.

You sound like a 12-year old who's genuinely proud of investing himself into a computer game.

But then again, you're making some kind of joke, right?

If you got to Hell in diablo and think thats where the game starts then what do you care about story, really? There's no exploration, the levels are random and you forgot about it. Shows how much you love exploration, really.
I forgot to mention it and I explained why it's not a big deal to me for these games - because exploration doesn't work for me in DS, so random or no - it's still pretty boring to me.

As I said at first, I've changed a lot since I played Diablo. I no longer care about endless punishing combat and exclusive focus on character progression.

I used to care when I was younger and I felt it was worth my time. Probably because I had more time and I hadn't played so many games that were so similar.

I also remember a time when I considered besting an AI some kind of feat - and not just the inevitable result of investment I see it as today.

You'd have to be physically or mentally disabled NOT to best an AI - if you invest yourself. It's a computer game designed for mass consumption. Ok, if you're 70 years old - it might take extra work, but that's about it for being a real challenge.

I'm not irrationally attached to DS, I can think of so many ways to improve upon it, but its the game which comes closest to the ideal RPG for me and I think RPGs need to work in that direction and not become like world of warcraft or something.
I don't see what wanting it to improve has to do with being rational.

It's very simple. A rational human being understands that people like different things for different reasons.

You love the combat system and you obviously think the exploration was worthwhile because you could expand your arsenal by looking around. That's fair - and I have no problem understanding that.

I would probably have loved it 10-15 years ago.

I was quite happy with Demon's Souls for a while, afterall.

The way WoW handles quests is horrible. They're meaningless. I think finding a quest should be like finding a super rare artifact. Like in MajorMUD when you went on your allignment quest to commander Markus and it was such a big deal and you were so excited. Not just filling your quest log with crappy tasks for chumps and grinding them all out.
Yes, and finding a super rare artifact that no one else could find in a casual themepark MMO designed around communities and competition around a level playing field would work really well
Last edited by DArtagnan; December 9th, 2013 at 12:35.
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December 9th, 2013, 12:44
“That may be true, but I'm a fighter and a leader! I'm strong but fair, and often misunderstood. I will correct you with tactical knowledge rather than blame you or question "why?". I'm definitely a player you'd want in your group if you wanted to slay the dragon, but I have little patience in waiting while you listen to every sob story of petty townsfolk beneath me. I AM THE HERO!”

The Witcher games are designed to allow you to role play as Geralt of Rivia, a pre defined character. You cannot role play the Witcher games as anything other than Geralt of Rivia. The above quote illustrates that you have not bought into the character Geralt of Rivia since he is nothing like what you described above and there for you will not enjoy the Witcher games.

Your initial complaint was this

“Witcher games need more loot. If they made it like Dark Souls with heaps of weapons I'd be more interested. “

But it makes no sense for Geralt to want “heaps of weapons” so they game wasn’t designed to have this. I don’t believe the new game will have this either.

There is a separate debate about the merits of playing a pre defined character in a RPG but if you remove or alter the character of Geralt then you won’t have a Witcher game anymore since Geralt is the Witcher and defines the nature of the game.
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December 9th, 2013, 13:59
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
From what I know of you, you have quite a lot of life to live before you could put yourself in my shoes.

You sound like a 12-year old who's genuinely proud of investing himself into a computer game.
I grow weary.

Look, I didn't start arguing with you about any of this crap. You said "Dark Souls is basically Diablo" and I disagreed, stand by that, and you've changed the subject. You've tricked me into talking about issues unrelated to my initial comment in order to "win" the argument with me on those grounds, which you have to do because I'm an aggressive poster that you don't back down to, or admit to when you're wrong. Ok. You win. As you say, someone with my attitude could never convince you of anything. Not with facts and logic, or even at gunpoint. You win!

Is that the kind of maturity you want? You want to know how old I am, if I'm 12?

Well, if you want to know more about me, just ask nicely.

I'd tell you that I got into RPGs on Amiga 500 winning Curse of the Azure Bonds, so I might not be entirely grey just yet, but I'm getting there, and have played almost every old computer RPG game from Akalabeth onward. I was a smart kid - those games were hard! Compared to kids who grew up playing WoW and CoD we're miles apart. And the load times in those days! No hard drive! Having to reload those fights swapping disks and go through the "what's Word1, line2, page23?" copy protection and everything. Brutal, but I stuck with it!

Deathknights of Krynn on Amiga was my favourite RPG until Baldurs Gate came out, and my name "Sir James" was a replacement for "Sir Dryden", the knight in the pre-made party because my name is James. Nothing to do with champagne or crusaders I haven't heard of.

So, you don't back down to people with my attitude? Isn't that what I'd do?

When I play games these days I get angry when people surrender before the end, but its so common in this new age of over-accessibility that even my favourite games have a surrender/concede option built in and only a small fraction of games actually play through to their natural conclusion. People just want to concede at the sight of any challenge until they get easy wins. They're happy to put in the time working on winning, gradually improving like in an MMORPG, but not happy to have to overcome seemingly impossible challenges. Time consuming=good, Hard=bad. Even if the total time to overcome the hard challenge is less they get frustrated. Because their will is weak, they're too tired, whatever. I enjoy playing a losing battle that I might actually achieve a great victory and this is very rare these days.

You conceded in Dark Souls, so I see another "wow generation" 12 year old who just wants to hear a story and not have to fight through challenges to find it just like you see a 12 year old in me because I'm proud that I invested in the game and came out the winner. Like that's something children actually do these days? Wrong. Are we not RPG gamers? Why are you on this site if becoming invested in a game is too much? These are RPG games, the most complicated genre, not casual puzzle games. You're supposed to get invested in these games! Dark Souls is actually an easy game, just not overly accessible. It forces you to approach gaming in a different way and should be commended for that!

The fact is, they don't make gamers like me anymore. Players like me are so rare that I can't think of any others. Who the hell wants to keep playing when they know they'll lose and actually enjoys themselves? ME. Gamers my age generally "just want to relax after work", by working some more. None of my friends IRL like Dark Souls. New kids just want easy wins. Its the "skinner box" style addiction that runs new, accessible RPGS, and not the challenge of overcoming a mighty foe.

I remember sayings that kids these days have never heard: "it's not whether you win or lose but how you play the game" or "Don't start a game if you're not going to finish it". This wisdom is totally lost in online games these days.

People these days play MMORPGS and its strange to start talking to a stranger! I started playing MMORPGS with MajorMUD and you'd get to know everyone on the server. That was normal in my day! Now your global chat is filled with trolling and memes. Nothing like I remember from the golden days. You don't go on a quest together, you grind the quests solo and join a queue for a multiplayer event where your required addons play for you. You just go to work again! You be a healer or a tank and work for the raid and don't talk or have fun, but there's no real community feeling. They get frustrated so quickly when they fail. They look to blame people, ask "why?" but don't offer the solution to the issue. They have 3rd party addons and macros to play for them, and even tell them what to think by means of DPS readouts and such.

So, I rationally accept that you like different things for different reasons, but I also know why you like these different things because I know what drives them. I did say I like movies, so I like to hear a story too. But when I play games I play games. No addon help, no complaints, no fear. You want the dots connected for you, fine. Accepted. That's perfectly normal. Dark Souls only has a small, "cult" following anyway. In Dark Souls it's clear that I'm the best of the best. Teams can't blame me because there is no team. I just win.

I can accept your normality but can you accept my…..?
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December 9th, 2013, 14:09
Originally Posted by lostforever View Post
But it makes no sense for Geralt to want “heaps of weapons” so they game wasn’t designed to have this. I don’t believe the new game will have this either.

There is a separate debate about the merits of playing a pre defined character in a RPG but if you remove or alter the character of Geralt then you won’t have a Witcher game anymore since Geralt is the Witcher and defines the nature of the game.
That sounds awfully linear for an "open" game. Like I was saying, surely there's room in an open world RPG for some open character progression while still allowing for the by-the-lore-book approach. If lore is getting in the way of potentially improved gameplay and customisation options I say ditch it and just make a great RPG.
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December 9th, 2013, 14:13
Well, I'll add my two cents regarding Dark Souls Versus Diablo.

Having played both extensively, I think they are extremely different games, with almost nothing in similar. Diablo is a completely dumbed down click-feast.

Dark souls is the complete opposite of that.

To say that the games are similar just because they both have a dark and gritty setting and both have loot. It is like saying Mass Effect and System Shock is the same game because they are both set in space and you can collect items.

I also liked the old games, and dark souls is almost the only game interesting for a player who enjoys a challenging RPG for the PC.
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December 9th, 2013, 14:38
Back on topic, I'd love to see W3 do less cinematics than W2. There were several times where I felt like I was doing far more watching than playing, reminded me of Game of Thrones. Story was pretty good but always getting pulled out to watch rather than play annoyed me.
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December 9th, 2013, 15:11
Yeah back to the frigging topic. We had two pages of a thread about Witcher 3 taken over by the long winded discussion about DS versus Diabolo games.

I agree with you greywolf. Projekt Red did indeed overdo cinematics in TW2.
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