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Default Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’

January 5th, 2014, 05:27
Originally Posted by TopCat View Post
You should know that the chart of bears does not show evolution
It shows drawings of bears. Does that say anything to you?
Someone wants you to think that he proved something by showing you
a drawing of bears… Is that science? No! Is that facts? No! So??
It shows that bears and raccoons have a common ancestor or so we are lead to believe.
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January 5th, 2014, 05:36
Findings of vegetation in drillings made at the northpole.
We are talking rainforrest vegetation.
It points towards pangea ? maybe, I don't know but it do point to that there's been a change in conditions worldwide.
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January 5th, 2014, 06:03
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
It shows that bears and raccoons have a common ancestor or so we are lead to believe.
Exactly, you are lead to belive, with nothing more than a drawing.
Thats what seperates science from fairytales.

This is a fairytale.

The whole project around TET builds upon enough time to make fairytales a bit less
stupid.

Everybody knows that rain on rocks does not produce life, but…
If it rained on the rocks for millions or billions of years… Still stupid to me.

Everybody knows that a fish does not turn into a pig, but…
If the fish tried to get up on land for millions or even billions of years…
Thats stupid with a capital S, It's a fairytale!

When do you think oil and coal was made and how?
Do you know that the magnetic field of the earth was to strong for life to exist
even tenthousand years ago?

How do you think that a "simple cell" would evolve knowing that a simple cell is more advanced than the biggest car factory on earth!!

Darwin did not know that. If he would, he would not have published his book.
He was not stupid like his followers.
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January 5th, 2014, 06:16
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Yes, very strange, since they (animals) have developed very differently and you can't say they've "degenerated". That term means nothing.

Are smaller animals degenerates of the larger ones ? Are the red kangaroos degenerate because they've changed colour ?
Your term means nothing.

You are just saying things that come to mind, but with nothing to back it up.

On top of this, your are philosophising ! You said you wanted facts. Nowhere in the bible does it say animals can "degenerate", whatever that even means.

Can you please stick to facts as you said. Or should I quote you again.



This is very misleading. There will always be missing links. Let me explain:
Let's say we have in our "evolution line" that goes from 1-10 (1 being the furthest back we can go and 10 being now)
We have examples from 3-6 and 7.5-9 and then 9.5-10.
Let's say we find the missing link 7, you will say no evidence was found for 6.1-6.9. Let's say we find evidence for 6.1-6.9, you'll say we have no evidence from 6.01-6.09.
Let us say we find evidence for 6.091-6.100, you'll say we have no evidence for 6.0901-6.0909.

And so on.

A very simple story someone once told me demonstrates the idea though.

Let us say a bank was robbed. You are the jury. The defendant is seen on camera entering the bank at night, entering the manager's room, taking the key to the safe, opening the safe, the camera in the safe is turned off during the robbery, then the camera just outside the safe is also off, the next camera to pick him up is in the main bank reception with a bag that seems full on his shoulder, then coming out of the bank with the bag.

So basically, you're missing the robber taking the money, but money is missing from the safe and you know he was in the bank. Your "missing link" is one piece out of a massive puzzle.
Are you going to convict the defendant? Or are you going to say he's not guilty ?

Most people would convict him and they would most likely be right. Of course there's a chance they were wrong and the guy only went in to get his stuff from the safe while someone else robbed the bank that night. Or God could have robbed the bank himself, but the more likely explanation is that it's the defendant.

So you see the missing link is not a really good argument, because the point is that evidence for evolution is massively overwhelming.

In case you do want some examples of evidence :
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib…0_0_0/lines_01
Would you read this slowly and see if it contained anything but the assumption that there is overwhelming facts for the evolution?

Degeneration is a scientific fact proven by studies, tests and so on.
It is even a natural law, the second law of thermodynamics.
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January 5th, 2014, 10:48
Originally Posted by TopCat View Post
Degeneration is a scientific fact proven by studies, tests and so on.
It is even a natural law, the second law of thermodynamics.
Can't let this basic misunderstanding of the physics pass. It's been refuted many times, of course, as have all the other absurd YEC claims (moon dust etc. etc.) you find on creationist sites.

The second law of thermodynamics does *not* say that all things degenerate. What it says is that the entropy (which you can loosely interpret as disorder) in an *isolated* system can never decrease. Animals (and all other forms of life) are not isolated systems, we eat food which gives us the energy to maintain our structural integrity. And the ultimate source of the energy that sustains life on this planet is, of course, the sun.

If you only go to lunatic fringe sites (such as answers in genesis) and look at conspiracy theories you are never going to understand anything about reality. Do you guys really want to live the rest of your lives in cloud cuckoo land?
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January 5th, 2014, 12:12
Originally Posted by TopCat View Post
Everybody knows that a fish does not turn into a pig, but…
If the fish tried to get up on land for millions or even billions of years…
Thats stupid with a capital S, It's a fairytale!
On the contrary. We now know that the evolutionary ancestors of both ourselves and pigs were indeed fish. Of course fish don't suddenly turn into pigs; rather successive generations are minutely different from the previous generation and over many generations that leads to major evolutionary changes. i.e. lot's of small changes lead to big changes. There are many strands of evidence leading to this conclusion, including the fossil record, genetics and embryology. See Neil Shubin's book: "Your Inner Fish".

Of course, one can understand why many people don't want to believe this, since it detracts from our position as special little snow flakes. Just to think, your great, great, …, great, great grandad was a fish and you are closely related to pigs!
Last edited by Roq; January 5th, 2014 at 12:33.
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January 5th, 2014, 12:54
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
This is probably true, same way that i cannot convince you that the earth is not millions of years old.
There's a massive difference though, as even I with rudimentary knowledge of biology, physics and probability theory have shown you to be wrong on many points.

If you want to believe in magic, then that's fine, but then there's no point in this discussion as everything I say you could just counter with "God did it".

Why did polar bears not die ? God made them live.
How did the Ark survive for so long with so many animals without new sources of food ? God did it.
How did the Ark fit so many animals ? God did it. He used Time Lord technology to make the Ark bigger on the inside.

And so on.

If however, you want to look at scientific evidence, which is the method we use to understand the world around us and which has given you the computer you use to type on as well as the ability to fly all over the world then you need to think of non-magic things. If you start doing that you will realise all your "maybe"s like maybe there was no desert, maybe polar bears didn't exist and so on would be answered by a theory that has been refined over 200 years. While this is actually not a lot when you compare it to many mathematical theories (like probability theory which has been around for ~500 years), it still has had many years to improve on its original foundation.

And while science might be wrong many times, the whole idea is that it will fix itself by finding out what is wrong.

So if you believe in magic, let me know. Because that is where I cannot convince you otherwise and you can't convince me.

However if you want to talk about evidence, then you should be able to convince me. For now I have not seen one shred of evidence for a young earth and at the same time I've shown you to be wrong/misunderstand very simple scientific principles. So if you send me your evidence, be sure to actually understand it, because I am not an expert and if you do not understand it then you shouldn't assume I can.

Other than that, the earth being millions of years old is not just corroborated by evolution, it has many other factors involved.

Evolution itself is corroborated not only by how species look alike but by observing micro-evolution in many different species and other evidence too.
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January 5th, 2014, 12:56
Originally Posted by TopCat View Post
Would you read this slowly and see if it contained anything but the assumption that there is overwhelming facts for the evolution?
Not an assumption just like that, but one based on multitude of evidence.

Degeneration is a scientific fact proven by studies, tests and so on.
It is even a natural law, the second law of thermodynamics.
You are trying my patience.

Again, do not tell me how obvious it is.

Explain what "degeneration" means !
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January 5th, 2014, 13:07
Originally Posted by Roq View Post
Can't let this basic misunderstanding of the physics pass. It's been refuted many times, of course, as have all the other absurd YEC claims (moon dust etc. etc.) you find on creationist sites.

The second law of thermodynamics does *not* say that all things degenerate. What it says is that the entropy (which you can loosely interpret as disorder) in an *isolated* system can never decrease. Animals (and all other forms of life) are not isolated systems, we eat food which gives us the energy to maintain our structural integrity. And the ultimate source of the energy that sustains life on this planet is, of course, the sun.

If you only go to lunatic fringe sites (such as answers in genesis) and look at conspiracy theories you are never going to understand anything about reality. Do you guys really want to live the rest of your lives in cloud cuckoo land?
You totaly missed the point, the universe is an isolated system and thats never been refuted.
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January 5th, 2014, 13:19
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Not an assumption just like that, but one based on multitude of evidence.

So, why is not the multitude of evidence provided?

You are trying my patience.

Again, do not tell me how obvious it is.

Explain what "degeneration" means !
Things tends to fall to pieces.
Even the dna chain in spite of beeing able to repair itself degenerates.
Why do you have a problem with the expression?
It's the opposit to evolve.
Its happens with everything thats not mantained in a proper way.
So, for life to exist you need mantainance, or it degenerates
Who would provide this in TET?
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January 5th, 2014, 13:34
Originally Posted by TopCat View Post
You totaly missed the point, the universe is an isolated system and thats never been refuted.
The universe is expanding, entropy *is* increasing and current theory suggests that it will die a "heat death", when life will exist no longer. Fortunately that will take some time, though. But, that wasn't your point. What you said was:

"That things degenerate is simply because of the laws of thermodynamics.
The same laws that makes it impossible for things to evolve.
Things wears out cause of radiation, wind, water and so on, look at everything around you it's not hard to see. That is sience. You can test it, it's a FACT!!"

This is nonsense: Our world is not an isolated system, since it has energy input from the sun. That's what enables local decreases in entropy over the world. Think of your refrigerator, it extends the life of food, but the cost is an increase in entropy outside of it. Similarly with the world.

Sure mountains erode, but new mountains and landforms arise through plate tectonics… That's why (incidentally) you find fossils of sea dwelling creatures up mountains.
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January 5th, 2014, 13:47
Originally Posted by Roq View Post
The universe is expanding, entropy *is* increasing and current theory suggests that it will die a "heat death", when life will exist no longer. Fortunately that will take some time, though. But, that wasn't your point. What you said was:

"That things degenerate is simply because of the laws of thermodynamics.
The same laws that makes it impossible for things to evolve.
Things wears out cause of radiation, wind, water and so on, look at everything around you it's not hard to see. That is sience. You can test it, it's a FACT!!"

This is nonsense: Our world is not an isolated system, since it has energy input from the sun. That's what enables local decreases in entropy over the world. Think of your refrigerator, it extends the life of food, but the cost is an increase in entropy outside of it. Similarly with the world.

TopCat:
-I didn't say our world is an isolated system, I said the universe is!
Read before you answer, it helps.
I do like to see your interest in these matters.


Sure mountains erode, but new mountains and landforms arise through plate tectonics…
Well then, I take that as evidence for a worldwide flood when the great fountains of the deep burst up to the surface that started the plate tectonics we see today.

Well, what would the world look like if it was billions of years old…
No mountains, no valleys.
Think about that for awhile.
That is strong evidence for a young earth.
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January 5th, 2014, 15:24
Originally Posted by TopCat View Post
Well then, I take that as evidence for a worldwide flood when the great fountains of the deep burst up to the surface that started the plate tectonics we see today.

Well, what would the world look like if it was billions of years old…
No mountains, no valleys.
Think about that for awhile.
That is strong evidence for a young earth.
Plate tectonics isn't something that occurs over a few thousand years, as the plates move very slowly, usually less than 10cm/year in fact. So in fact plate tectonics implies an old earth - It's around 4.5 billion years old in fact. Mountain formation is complex, but one way they form is along the fault lines between colliding plates. This is a continuos process and so doesn't imply a young earth. You may be aware that this interaction between plates is also the cause of seismic activity, such as earthquakes. If the plates zipped around at the kind of speed that a young earth would imply, we'd all have died of concussion or got squashed, mashed or buried in volcanic ash.

And as we have been discussing, there is no geological evidence for a world wide flood, which would in any case require lots of magic wand waving, for reasons mentioned earlier in the thread.
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January 5th, 2014, 16:01
Originally Posted by Roq View Post
Plate tectonics isn't something that occurs over a few thousand years, as the plates move very slowly, usually less than 10cm/year in fact. So in fact plate tectonics implies an old earth - It's around 4.5 billion years old in fact. Mountain formation is complex, but one way they form is along the fault lines between colliding plates. This is a continuos process and so doesn't imply a young earth. You may be aware that this interaction between plates is also the cause of seismic activity, such as earthquakes. If the plates zipped around at the kind of speed that a young earth would imply, we'd all have died of concussion or got squashed, mashed or buried in volcanic ash.

And as we have been discussing, there is no geological evidence for a world wide flood, which would in any case require lots of magic wand waving, for reasons mentioned earlier in the thread.
All this is what you belive.
There is not any substantial evidence for this 4,5 billion years and everyone knows that it is an assumption.

As a matter of fact we'd all died of concussion and got squashed, mashed and burried in volcanic ash except for eight people and the animals on the ark.

that is what caused oil, cool and fossils.
Glad you are starting to understand!!!
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January 5th, 2014, 16:02
Originally Posted by TopCat View Post
Things tends to fall to pieces.

Even the dna chain in spite of beeing able to repair itself degenerates.

Why do you have a problem with the expression?

It's the opposit to evolve.

Its happens with everything thats not mantained in a proper way.

So, for life to exist you need mantainance, or it degenerates

Who would provide this in TET?

Except for the fact that everything suggests that's not the case. DNA can in fact change in any number of ways. This includes "growths" as well as "diseases".
Evolution suggests "diseased" mutations will eventually die out while "strengthening" mutations will survive.

I put those words in quotes because I can't think of the right way to say it right now. Also typing on phone.

Can explain later if necessary.
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January 5th, 2014, 16:11
Look, this is a big lie !!
I would be very happy if you showed me who came up with this nonsence.
It does not seem like he is a scientist in this field, but I will hold my breath until you tell me.
Exciting when things like this happends.
We have never had a mutation thats been strengthened on living creatures.
Mutations is always loss of information.
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January 5th, 2014, 17:11
Originally Posted by TopCat View Post
Look, this is a big lie !!
I would be very happy if you showed me who came up with this nonsence.
It does not seem like he is a scientist in this field, but I will hold my breath until you tell me.
Exciting when things like this happends.
We have never had a mutation thats been strengthened on living creatures.
Mutations is always loss of information.
Strictly speaking point mutations can't increase the overall amount of information in the chromosome of an individual on their own (although they *can* increase the variability in a species's gene pool as a whole). However there are various mechanisms that do: One of them is gene duplication, whereby a gene gets copied incorrectly and the recipient gets two copies of the same gene. On it's own this wouldn't increase the information content, but point mutations in each of the recipient genes allow the two genes to vary independently. There are many studies of this mechanism in action, in the literature, a particular one that springs to mind being the development of insecticide resistance in aphids.
Last edited by Roq; January 5th, 2014 at 19:11.
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January 5th, 2014, 17:31
Originally Posted by TopCat View Post
All this is what you belive.
There is not any substantial evidence for this 4,5 billion years and everyone knows that it is an assumption.

As a matter of fact we'd all died of concussion and got squashed, mashed and burried in volcanic ash except for eight people and the animals on the ark.

that is what caused oil, cool and fossils.
Glad you are starting to understand!!!
In fact there are many strands of evidence for the age of the earth dating back some three centuries to James Hutton. Even dendrochronology - the science of dating using tree rings, goes back more than 10,000 years!? and Ice Core dating nearly 1m years!? That's already far too long a period for your absurd bible based chronology.

I mention these other forms of dating, since I've already encountered the ridiculous creationist arguments against radiometric dating and you simply wouldn't understand the physics if I were to explain why those are wrong. As you've shown by your less than high school level of understanding of thermodynamics.

And, I see you've now given up on your second law of TD arguments. That's good - did you visit a creationist site and find out that even those dumbasses can understand why that argument is specious?
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Default Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’

January 5th, 2014, 17:55
Originally Posted by TopCat View Post
Look, this is a big lie !!
I would be very happy if you showed me who came up with this nonsence.
It does not seem like he is a scientist in this field, but I will hold my breath until you tell me.
Exciting when things like this happends.
We have never had a mutation thats been strengthened on living creatures.
Mutations is always loss of information.

It very simply isn't.
A very simple example would be a change of colour. Another one would be people who have 12 fingers instead of 10.

You can call it a lie. You can misunderstand the science behind it. You can deny it all you want but it isn't.

Also see Roq's more scientific answer than mine.
Still on the phone. I'm on the train back home.
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January 5th, 2014, 18:17
Well he is right about one thing the human genome is deteriorating.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK7566/
http://discovermagazine.com/2013/jul…obably-harmful


As for proof the earth is young. I honestly dunno. But the fossil record isnt proof of evolution rather it is at best circumstantial evidence where you draw lines to say evolution is true.

I have yet to see any proof that one kind of animal can evolve to another. Sure there is mendellian variation but never any real evolution. Both sides dont really have any real proof.
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