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Default 3D Movement In M&M Games

January 28th, 2014, 05:46
Originally Posted by benetar View Post
Hey! Can we talk about bowel movement?
BeCause that is a popular topic among old timers. And, you know that crap might be better than this crap.
This stuff is all still relevant, benetar. Same tech being used in the game engines of today.
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January 28th, 2014, 10:51
Originally Posted by Morrandir View Post
Oh, you're an optimist.

@DArtagnan
Well… I still don't see a definition of a "3D game".
You mean you don't see an objective definition?

I can only give you a definition that makes sense:

Any game that simulates three dimensions is a 3D game.

In game terms, the third dimension is depth or the z-axis - whether it's based on actual vector math or just an approximation, like an artist drawing a face with depth and shadows on a piece of paper. He's only got access to two dimensions - but he's using trickery to simulate the third dimension. If he was to use vector math and a x,y,z coordination system, guess what, he'd still be simulating the third dimension - because there's no "real" third dimension on a piece of paper. Same goes for a computer monitor.

In layman's terms, if you can move left, right, forward and back - it's a 3D game to an extent. Though there are examples of 2D platformers where all you can do is move forward one "layer" through a door, for example - and calling such a game a 3D game is a bit of a stretch - but I'd say it's technically 3D because there's simulated depth.

I doubt there's an official objective definition we can use - but the concept is extremely trivial to understand.

I assume you understand what 3D is - or I can break it down for clarity:

3D = Three dimensions

3D game = Game in three dimensions

Anyone disagree? Then I'd like to hear a rational argument - and not the CraigWB version of: "You're stupid - you won't get a job - I'm right and smart, bla bla."
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January 28th, 2014, 11:23
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I doubt there's an official objective definition we can use - but the concept is extremely trivial to understand.
That imho is highly debatable.
In a broad context of science, I'd even go so far to say that without clear definitions, noone can understand anything, because you wouldn't even know what you (don't) understand.

One game that comes to my mind, where I think it's difficult to agree if it has 3D (movement) or not, is Neverwinter Nights 2. On first glance of course it's 3D. But you need to take a closer look. When you build maps with its toolset, you can place objects in 3 dimensions. So ok, still 3D, 3 internally modeled dimensions.
But when it comes to player (or creature) movement, it's a little less obvious. Although you can model a 3 dimensional height map, with small hills and stuff, the walkmesh modeling (where the creatures may actually walk) has the limitation that you can't have a walkable area below or overhead an existing walkable area. More specifically, you cant't build a bridge that creatures can cross and that can be walked below. Additionally it's not possible for creatures (including the player chars) to fly, levitate or jump.
So at any given time, any creatures position in the 3D environment can be specified by 2 values, in 2 dimensions.

So everything looks 3D, objects positions are modeled in 3D… but it is really a 3D game? It doesn't have full 3D movement… so?

I hope you get where I'm going. The devil is in the detail.
And if you don't get your detailed definitions right, you will discuss in circles, each one talking about different things.
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January 28th, 2014, 11:40
I don't agree at all, and I don't need science to understand extremely basic concepts.

NWN 2 is a 3D game in every sense of the word - because it simulates three dimensions. You can move up and down, back and forth, left and right and so on. Maybe you're confusing a simulated dimension with a fully functional and realistic version of a third dimension? Games are not capable of simulating reality just yet.

Also, you can't establish any location of a physical object in NWN 2 without 3 coordinates. But since the toolset is based on the old grid-based approach in NWN - you can use 2 coordinates WITHIN the toolset itself - but the game engine uses a camera with 3 coordinates - trust me. It's most definitely based on vector math.

If you don't understand the concept of three dimensions, I'm afraid there's little I can do to change that. I've tried my best - but I have to give up, because it's taking up too much time - and you don't seem to get any closer.

You could make a case for it not being a "full" 3D game with "full" movement - but it's 3D no matter what.

What you need is perhaps an official "science person" to explain dimensions and perhaps point to some established articles. Some people are more comfortable when things are written down by an authoritative person, and that's fine.

I can't provide that, sorry.
Last edited by DArtagnan; January 28th, 2014 at 11:51.
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January 28th, 2014, 11:52
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I don't agree at all, and I don't need science to understand extremely basic concepts.
If you write down basic concepts - BAM! You have science. Science isn't generally complex.

Also, you can't establish any location of a physical object in NWN 2 without 3 coordinates. But since the toolset is based on the old grid-based approach in NWN - you can use 2 coordinates WITHIN the toolset itself - but the game engine uses a camera with 3 coordinates - trust me. It's most definitely based on vector math.
I've never claimed otherwise.

You can move up and down, back and forth, left and right and so on.
No, you can't actually move up and down. You just move back, forth, left, right. The height is implied by the map you're walking on.

And yes, I'd call NWN2 a 3D game too.
But if someone claimed the game not to have "full 3D movement", I'd say "Depends on your definition!"
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January 28th, 2014, 11:53
Originally Posted by Morrandir View Post
If you write down basic concepts - BAM, you have science.
I don't need to write it down - that's what YOU seem to need me to do

No, you can't actually move up and down. You just move back, forth, left, right. The height is implied by the map you're walking on.
Yes, you can walk up and down. When you walk along an incline - that's walking up - and there's no way around that

And yes, I'd call NWN2 a 3D game too.
But if someone claimed the game not to have "full 3D movement", I'd say "Depends on your definition!"
I'd agree with that
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January 28th, 2014, 12:02
OK, then how would you briefly describe the differences between NWN2 and Skyrim concerning movement?
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January 28th, 2014, 12:07
Originally Posted by Morrandir View Post
OK, then how would you briefly describe the differences between NWN2 and Skyrim concerning movement?
You mean apart from jumping, diving, swimming and so on?

There's no difference that makes one game 2D and the other 3D.

I've explained that NWN2 is 3D and you agree - so what are we talking about?

If you don't agree you're moving up when you're walking along an incline or that NPCs are down when you're above them - that's fine with me. I don't see how that makes sense at all, but I'm not here to convince you.
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January 28th, 2014, 12:17
Originally Posted by Morrandir View Post
OK, then how would you briefly describe the differences between NWN2 and Skyrim concerning movement?
You realize you're arguing the finer points with somebody who claimed Dungeon Master was a 3D game just a few hours ago, right? Dungeon Master, as in the whole level is a two dimensional plane, and motion is step-mode and restricted to 90 degree angles?
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January 28th, 2014, 12:26
Beyond Dungeon Master simulating multiple levels when you go up and down staircases - that's a pretty amusing example of how CraigWB doesn't have the first clue what 2D and 3D really mean.

I guess if we locked Skyrim to horizontal movement - it would magically stop having a simulated third dimension. I guess in that severely skewed world, moving up is actually what three dimensions are all about.

That clearly means if I lived in a one floor apartment and I just walked upright - I'd be living in a 2D world, right?

It's getting better and better, I have to say

Even better, if we could only move in predetermined steps in Skyrim - the world itself would suddenly become 2D and when we move forward - we're not actually moving along the z-axis but that alternate CraigWB dimension that only high school graduates can appreciate
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January 28th, 2014, 12:38
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Beyond Dungeon Master simulating multiple levels when you go up and down staircases - that's a pretty amusing example of how CraigWB doesn't have the first clue what 2D and 3D really mean.
It's actually pretty amazing how many times you've tried to explain what you mean by "3D", and he still doesn't understand. Since he claims to know so much about gaming history, for a long time I figured he was just being intentionally obtuse, but I'm becoming convinced he doesn't understand anything you're saying.

Let me try to put it this way, back in the 80s just about any game you played, your "character" (or whatever it was you were controlling) would move left/right, up/down, or some combination of those 2 dimensions, on your (obviously 2D) screen. You would never move "backwards" or "forwards" (relative to the viewer). There were only a few exceptions in those days, for example, the Star Wars arcade game from the early 80s. Games were called 3D, rightfully, when they added backwards and forwards movement.

Of course, there are various other different definitions of what constitutes a "3D game" as well, but it should have been obvious long ago which one you're using. Even CraigCWB's favorite site, Wikipedia, which he loves linking people to, calls Dungeon Master a 3D game. And yet anyone who calls Dungeon Master 3D has no credibility? So Wikipedia has no credibility. Wonder why he links it to us.
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January 28th, 2014, 12:41
Beyond Dungeon Master simulating multiple levels when you go up and down staircases - that's a pretty amusing example of how CraigWB doesn't have the first clue what 2D and 3D really mean.

You see what you're trying to reason with, Morrandir?
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January 28th, 2014, 12:50
Originally Posted by Stingray View Post
It's actually pretty amazing how many times you've tried to explain what you mean by "3D", and he still doesn't understand. Since he claims to know so much about gaming history, for a long time I figured he was just being intentionally obtuse, but I'm becoming convinced he doesn't understand anything you're saying.

Let me try to put it this way, back in the 80s just about any game you played, your "character" (or whatever it was you were controlling) would move left/right, up/down, or some combination of those 2 dimensions, on your (obviously 2D) screen. You would never move "backwards" or "forwards" (relative to the viewer). There were only a few exceptions in those days, for example, the Star Wars arcade game from the early 80s. Games were called 3D, rightfully, when they added backwards and forwards movement.

Of course, there are various other different definitions of what constitutes a "3D game" as well, but it should have been obvious long ago which one you're using. Even CraigCWB's favorite site, Wikipedia, which he loves linking people to, calls Dungeon Master a 3D game. And yet anyone who calls Dungeon Master 3D has no credibility? So Wikipedia has no credibility. Wonder why he links it to us.
Hehe, well, I tend to cut people a bit of slack. I can be quite stubborn as well - though I think I'm better at not going there than I used to be.

One part of reality is that we're going to be wrong very, very often. There was a time when I couldn't truly accept that - but that was a long time ago.

Craig is probably just really invested in appearing "smarter" than the norm, and I can appreciate not wanting to "lose face" in public.

I do remember a time when I functioned in a similar way, and it's all good

Doesn't mean it can't be somewhat amusing, though.

Then again, he COULD be right. I'm just not seeing it.
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January 28th, 2014, 13:32
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I've explained that NWN2 is 3D and you agree - so what are we talking about?
I'm trying to get your definition of 3D games.
I don't have one myself. I've never before really made up my mind about the actual meaning of 2D or 3D in games.

Originally Posted by CraigCWB View Post
You realize you're arguing the finer points with somebody who claimed Dungeon Master was a 3D game just a few hours ago, right?
Originally Posted by CraigCWB View Post
You see what you're trying to reason with, Morrandir?
Yeah, but to me it's more fun to have a discussion with guys having a different opinion, than with guys who in these disussions insult on a personal level.
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January 28th, 2014, 13:33
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I've explained that NWN2 is 3D and you agree - so what are we talking about?
I'm trying to get your definition of 3D games. If you can't or don't want to write it down, perhaps I can.
I don't have a definition myself. I've never before really made up my mind about the actual meaning of 2D or 3D in games.

Originally Posted by CraigCWB View Post
You realize you're arguing the finer points with somebody who claimed Dungeon Master was a 3D game just a few hours ago, right?
Originally Posted by CraigCWB View Post
You see what you're trying to reason with, Morrandir?
Yeah, but to me it's more fun to have a discussion with guys who perhaps have a different opinion, than with guys who in these disussions insult on a personal level.
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January 28th, 2014, 13:46
Originally Posted by Morrandir View Post
I'm trying to get your definition of 3D games.
I don't have one myself. I've never before really made up my mind about the actual meaning of 2D or 3D in games.
You're STILL not getting it?

One last time - any game that SIMULATES the third dimension, is a 3D game. That means the SLIGHTEST and LEAST functional "third dimension" implementation is arguably (and technically) a 3D game, though it might not make sense to talk about it as such - like my platform game example.

To put it another way - if you were to translate some game using "trickery" instead of vector math, from trickery to vector math, the game is 3D if you need three coordinates to represent where the camera/player is in the world. In a 3D world, x,y,z are essentially interchangeable - but for clarity, let's say X = horizontal position of your eyes, Y = vertical position of the eyes and Z = "depth" position of the eyes.

The world map or dungeon level would usually be created in an editor - and the player/camera would need to have a position (and a facing, actually) in that world - and for that, you'd need 3 coordinates. Otherwise, it'd be impractical to have the illusion of movement as position and facing changed.

I don't see how I can make that any clearer.

The ONLY difference between a game like MMX (obviously using vector math - and obviously a 3D game to you, I hope) and Dungeon Master - is that one game is using vector math, and the other is using what I call trickery - because it depends on the implementation. It's still math and there's still a third dimension - it's just not vector math. Vector math is precise and efficient, but it's not required for a simulation of 3D. You could argue that it's almost certain to be a more precise simulation of 3D, but we're not talking about precision - just simulation.
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January 28th, 2014, 14:07
When using the definition that you're using of what constitutes a 3D game, I think part of the problem is that it's been so long since any non-3D games were even on the market (at least on the PC), a lot of people can't even remember what they were like.

2D: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_Ofx-Ban4#t=134s
3D: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHUToeQykp0#t=10s
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January 28th, 2014, 14:15
There are lots of 2D games on the market still, and people are playing games like Angry Birds like crazy.

However, I do think the fact that vector math/polygons is so common these days make people forget that there was a time of 3D games that didn't involve vector math.

One of the first I can remember is Lords of Midnight for the Spectrum - which was a HUGE deal back in the day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lords_of_Midnight

Quote:

The 3D effect used in the game was achieved by "billboarding" (see sprite) pre-scaled images of mountains, forests, buildings, etc. to create the impression of a perspective-correct landscape scene, available from a viewpoint of 8 points of the compass: the technique was self-described as "landscaping".[3] The techique created a strong impression at the time, and the game received praise for its graphics; "landscaping" was also used in the sequel Doomdark's Revenge, but did not see significant further use in games.

An appropriate early example of 3D trickery.
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January 28th, 2014, 14:24
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
There are lots of 2D games on the market still, and people are playing games like Angry Birds like crazy.
Fair enough, but I was thinking more along the lines of the type of games that would be discussed here, and that the people here would be likely to be playing. Again using the definition you're using, I don't think there's been a (well known) PC RPG that you could call 2D in many, many years.
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January 28th, 2014, 14:32
Originally Posted by Stingray View Post
Fair enough, but I was thinking more along the lines of the type of games that would be discussed here, and that the people here would be likely to be playing. Again using the definition you're using, I don't think there's been a (well known) PC RPG that you could call 2D in many, many years.
http://www.dex-rpg.com/index_en.php

http://starbound.gamepedia.com/Starbound_Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_Fortress

I know for a fact that at least two of those have been discussed more than once around here

As have countless 2D "Rogue-likes" through the years.
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