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December 15th, 2006, 11:23
I'd like to see the same rules which apply to my char, apply to all my enemies. I think sometimes, the games cheat!! Ever had an enemy wizard keep firing spells at you, while you run out of mana, or memorised spells? I have!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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December 15th, 2006, 13:43
Originally Posted by Lethal Weapon View Post
To put it simply: the race for better graphics will never end.
No, it'll sputter out as diminishing returns set in. Dev houses will bump up against their artists' personal talent limits and the technical advances that remain will no longer excite people enough to sell any additional copies. Hell, you see the first part already. Plenty of dev houses are working on next-gen games that look like last-gen games with better shaders. Even Tim Sweeney's beautiful Unreal Engine 3 can't help an artist who doesn't know that arms widen and narrow occasionally between the shoulder and wrist.
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December 15th, 2006, 15:24
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
I had tremendous fun in NWN2 *as a RPG* - I loved watching my choices have impact in the world, with people and places. And I looked forward to watching the world change as a took a new character through who was different and made different choices .
Yet in the end you end up at the exact same spot fighting the exact same guy having done the same quests along the way. Yeah, you can choose to be "good" or "evil" but it really makes very little difference on the large scale.

NWN2 is a fine game but its choices truly are hollow as they have almost no effect on the ultimate outcome of the game.
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December 15th, 2006, 15:33
A lot of insight here into what makes things work in a game. You can have the best ruleset, the phattest loot, the most titillating eye-candy and still have a game fall flat on it's face. What makes a game great?

As Lethal Weapon pointed out, it's very much the same thing as what makes any creative endeavor succeed at the highest level: inspiration and talent; and to a lesser extent, originality and execution.

Without these qualities, all you have propelling the game is a transparent desire to make money.

Playing a game with no creative inspiration is like being trapped in an endless loop of car commercials, or politicalspeak. You have constantly the feeling of being manipulated.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
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December 15th, 2006, 16:26
Originally Posted by BillSeurer View Post
NWN2 is a fine game but its choices truly are hollow as they have almost no effect on the ultimate outcome of the game.
There are two routes we can take to get to my wife's parents house, which is ~200 miles away. One is pure highway, rest areas and the like. It is quick and efficient and ensured that when the kids were little we'd never be too far from a rest stop - and during the winter we knew we'd never be in an unplowed area.

Then there is the somewhat slower way along single lane 'highways', through rural areas, farms, up scenic roads, and through small towns. It takes a bit longer, but we take it when we have the time.

Each has the same start and destination - but it is the way in which we take the trip that makes all the difference.

And that is how and why I play RPG's.

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December 15th, 2006, 19:48
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
There are two routes we can take to get to my wife's parents house, which is ~200 miles away. One is pure highway, rest areas and the like. It is quick and efficient and ensured that when the kids were little we'd never be too far from a rest stop - and during the winter we knew we'd never be in an unplowed area.

Then there is the somewhat slower way along single lane 'highways', through rural areas, farms, up scenic roads, and through small towns. It takes a bit longer, but we take it when we have the time.

Each has the same start and destination - but it is the way in which we take the trip that makes all the difference.

And that is how and why I play RPG's.
But there AREN'T two routes in NWN2 (nor most other CRPGs). It's the exact same route but you can be an a**hole to the people along the way or a nice guy. You still hit all the same spots and end up at the same spot.

CRPGs just can't afford to include much optional-for-some-small-subset-of-players content. So they have no flexibility like in true face-to-face games. We put up with it because the good ones are still fun and have interesting stories.
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December 15th, 2006, 20:05
Originally Posted by BillSeurer View Post
But there AREN'T two routes in NWN2 (nor most other CRPGs). It's the exact same route but you can be an a**hole to the people along the way or a nice guy. You still hit all the same spots and end up at the same spot.
I think the difference between our opinions isn't that great, so I'll just agree to disagree on this one.

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December 15th, 2006, 21:15
are you related to robert frost at all mike…i enjoyed your example and share those sentiments.
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December 16th, 2006, 00:25
I disagree a little; there are sometimes 2 roads in NWN2. For example, you can join the Watch or the Thieves. There are differences. I imagine that there will be other differences depending on which characters I take with me, though I haven't explored that avenue!! Two roads diverged in a Yellow Wood…..!!

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December 16th, 2006, 01:13
I like the stat-crunch, just as long as it's optional, I can pay attention and take the thing as seriously as I want to, but I definitely want the choice. This is the type of choice that endears RPGs to me. If I want to break out the rulebooks and spreadsheets and really plan everything down to the last detail twenty levels out, it's an option. Then again, if I want to just sit back and make no more decision than plunking x number of skill points into the next-higher skills of my choice, that's fine as well.

I think NWN gives you this flexibility, if you really wish to make a totally gimped character to make the game tougher, you could. If like me, you dont necessarily want to do "the best" of everything to make the game a bit more of a challenge, that's fine too. I just take the choices that feel right for my character. You can also crunch the stats on everything down to your +2 charisma loincloth and walk all over everything in the game, and that's entirely possible too. These are the type of "choices" I really care about in an RPG, the personal development that allows me to pretty much craft the exact character that i want. That's how me and my avatar become one.
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December 16th, 2006, 03:09
When I watch ďBraveheartĒ I live through William Wallace. When I read a good book I become immersed in the world and story and live through the main character(s). When I play Silent Hill I live through the characters of the game. When I play an rpg my character lives through me. I create his story, his motives, his ego, super-ego, and id.

Letís ask this: when rpgs were created what did they allow that other forms of entertainment didnít? You could reread the LotR trilogy, Conan, etc only so many times, and there was a big group of dorks that didnít want to actually become warriors of legend (or werenít motivated enough to) and that couldnít become a powerful wizard in real life. Wargames set the foundation for what the mechanics of an rpg could be (since a lot of people wanted to try out there tactical might as generals but werenít actually generals). So, regardless of invented the first rpg game, it would of inevitably have been invented and provided the same exact thing: the ability to create that warrior or wizard and have your own adventures in that fantasy world instead of reading about them.

Across the large spectrum of pen and paper rpg offerings, from Fudge to Harn, whether you are a gamist, narrativist, or simulationist, from the first until now, there has been only one consistent: that consistent being that the characterís physical abilities are 100% independent of the playerís. Any game, regardless of medium, that has rpg in the title cannot have physical input from the player be a factor in any game outcome or that game ceases to be an rpg and becomes something else. You cannot play a role and be a role. Here is my proof:

The LAW of Noncontradiction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noncontradiction

As a second proof let me give these two examples.

Example 1)

Group A) is a group of people that dresses up in medieval attire and has mock battles with each other. One of the players, who plays the character Golthar, a powerful knight very skilled in the use of arms, is a wheelchair bound cripple. There combat is based on game rules on to-hit and strike mechanics, including some rolls of dice, etc, though it is played out in costume and real weapons are wielded.

Group B) this is a group of people that also dresses up in medieval attire and also engages in melee group combat. But this grup, like ARMA, really trains with swords. The speak in character and invent personas to play, but the outcome of combat is based on their personal martial skills, and not that of their characterís.

Does Group A)=Group B)? No. They are united in dorkiness but that is all. One group plays an rpg and the other group does not.

Example 2)

A new game comes out that allows people to create a character and play in a fantasy world. But all physical tests/conflict in the game are decided with the playerís skill and not the characterís skill. For ranged combat you have to knock a can off the desk, when you level up you move closer to the can, when you get a better weapon you upgrade from an elastic to a sling to wrist-rocket to a bb gun, etc. For melee combat you have to hit a cat with a toilet paper roll, when you level up and get better weapons you move to dogs with sticks, then cats with bats. To make a jump or climb a wall you have to make a jump or climb something. Etc. This might be fun, or funner than traditional dice rolling, etc, but what it isnít is an rpg.

What came first, the chicken or the egg? The egg that laid the first chicken, which was mothered by something chicken like but was not exactly a chicken. When something turns into something else, whether that something else is better or funner or whatever, it stops being what it once was. When things change they get a new name and stop being classified as what they used to be. Pluto was once considered to be a planet, but thanks to definitions and classification based on fact and criteria, in no longer is from the what evidence we have and what the definition of planet is. Homo Erectus and Homo Sapien is not the same thing. An actual, real rpg will never have the playerís physical skills impact their characterís. What goes up must comes down. E=MC^2. A body at rest remains at rest, and a body in motion continues to move in a straight line with a constant speed unless and until an external unbalanced force acts upon it. The rate of change of momentum of a body is directly proportional to the impressed force and takes place in the direction in which the force acts. To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Boobs are good. Gay men like penis. Kung-fu is neat. And an rpg can only be an rpg. If it is something else it canít be an rpg. There is no such thing as an action rpg, there are action games with rpg elements.

Iím not saying that action games with rpg elements arenít better than stupid gay rpgs, Iím saying that they arenít rpgs. Thatís logical fact. They canít be to anyone who puts any stock in logic.

Iím sure action games with rpg elements are the future of the ďcrpgĒ genre (really yh action game with rpg element genre in reality), but they arenít, have never been, and never will be an rpg.

I challenge anyone to disprove my logic or my examples with actual logic and examples. You canít. You can ramble on about how awesome this is or how better or how its oppinon etc, but you canít disprove my proofs.

The avatar is not me. The avatar is an empty shell who I fill with life. Whereas Mario is filled pre-filled with a preset life, purpose, direction, and waits to share it with whoever picks up the controller.
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December 16th, 2006, 05:11
rpg is a dying word that will only spawn endless debate until games stop using it as a crutch to draw people in. the hardcore gamers will continually get pissed off and the casual gamers are duped into thinking there are actually playing an in depth game which is probably more hollow than similar gamesfrom decades past. large budget games of any merit will only succeed by telling a good story through the inovations of whatever the current technology allows. whether they let you have different color hair or have the option of allying with someone or plotting there demise are really just trivial choices since now matter how advanced games get, imitating all the possible choices (parellel universes) would be a futile attempt. if a game touts the option for you to 'be a thief' or 'be a paladin' it should allow you to play those roles as accurately as possible.

someone mentioned thief, and i think the thief games as they stand let you play the 'role' of a thief more than any other game so does that not make them the best thieving role playing game by definition. the only way games that allow you to play a role will evolve is by focusing on these type of roles. this is the draw of party based rpgs since it allows you to develop simultaneous characters but since you are controling them all, you aren't making different choices based on their charcter types only learning different skills. using a fireball or a sword to brake a barrel isn't making a choice but 'burning' someones clothes so they couldn't dress and chase after you versus slaying them in there sleep is a huge choice that envolves morals-something any great story must address. how you burn the clothes or what weapon you use is a nice feature but doesn't change your 'role'.
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December 16th, 2006, 12:17
Originally Posted by roqua View Post
When things change they get a new name and stop being classified as what they used to be. Pluto was once considered to be a planet, but thanks to definitions and classification based on fact and criteria, in no longer is from the what evidence we have and what the definition of planet is.
The definition of a planet didn't will itself into existence. The IAU invented it, this year, and the rest of the world accepted it in recognition of that body's authority. No-one recognises your authority to define the term RPG. It's evolved many meanings over the past thirty years, but has no accepted definition. I myself will continue to apply it to any game which feels RPGish.
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December 16th, 2006, 14:24
I didn't define what an rpg is. I gave proofs of what it isn't. And you can believe what you want. I could've gave proofs that 1 + 1 doesn't equal 3, and you could've replied with the same statement. Anyone can belive what they want about anything. You can believe a couch is a cow, but unless you can prove it, or if I disprove it, you're belief has little wieght.
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December 16th, 2006, 14:35
roqua once again demonstrates why no-one has ever won an argument with him. Only a fool would try.
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December 16th, 2006, 14:38
Or someone with a sound argument and logical conclusions to their statements. I conceded plenty of points when argueing with people, if they have a valid point. If I'm right, why would I give in?
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December 16th, 2006, 14:40
Originally Posted by magerette View Post
Playing a game with no creative inspiration is like being trapped in an endless loop of car commercials, or politicalspeak. You have constantly the feeling of being manipulated.
This is very much the feeling when I look at modern publisher's practises : They don't want originality, they want money.

Me, as an customer, I feel manipulated by their greed for money. They want me to buy a game that generates the most cash for them, things like "fun" are only to to enhance this, if they are considered from the publisher's side at all.
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December 16th, 2006, 14:50
Originally Posted by curious View Post
rpg is a dying word that will only spawn endless debate until games stop using it as a crutch to draw people in.
large budget games of any merit will only succeed by telling a good story through the inovations of whatever the current technology allows.
I don't believe this.

You could write the same towards books and novels : Let me try this example :
"Mystery Story is a dying word that will only spawn endless debate until games stop using it as a crutch to draw people in."

You could say, that books will only succeed by telling a good story through the innovations of whatever the current technology [read : "telling technology", as I put it - meaning the technology used to tell a story via a novel/book] allows.

So, in the last consequence, you write that genres are obsolete.

I, on the contrary, believe in genres. There are several of them, even in the gaming sector : Adventures, RPGs, Jump & Run games … Similar to those in literature : Mystery stories, thrillers, histirical novels, satire …

I believe that there are several genres ot there, wghich are defined by their own definition. Like RPGs, for example.

What's going on now is a mixture of genres. Maybe something completely new will emergy one day (the mixture of RTS/RPG in Spellforce hints about this), or sub-genres will emerge (like the Action-RPG by Blizzard).

But I still believe there are certain genres, no matter what developers might try to mix. Of course, there will be mixtures, but still there are Giraffes and Okapis that don't mix, do they ?
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December 16th, 2006, 15:33
Originally Posted by curious View Post
…..someone mentioned thief, and i think the thief games as they stand let you play the 'role' of a thief more than any other game so does that not make them the best thieving role playing game by definition. the only way games that allow you to play a role will evolve is by focusing on these type of roles. this is the draw of party based rpgs since it allows you to develop simultaneous characters but since you are controling them all, you aren't making different choices based on their charcter types only learning different skills. using a fireball or a sword to brake a barrel isn't making a choice but 'burning' someones clothes so they couldn't dress and chase after you versus slaying them in there sleep is a huge choice that envolves morals-something any great story must address. how you burn the clothes or what weapon you use is a nice feature but doesn't change your 'role'.
We need to define the concept of role. Do you think that the nameless one in Gothic 3 is an character that you fill with a personality? No, cause you just make choices that are only a part (big) of the total personality. His real personality is expressed by his sarcasm when he speaks and this personality lasts since Gothic 1. Oblivion let you shape your character but in a generic manner and you are just the man (or the animal ) that helps the died emperor. A real different role is a role that let you see the world and the story in a different manner. If you are the hero of the hammerites you see the world in a different manner, Garrett the thief has a different vision of the life, the Trickster too. I think that a RPG can attempt to let you enter in these deep roles letting you share their prospectives with a margin for your choices and this kind of game cam be still be defined a RPG.

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December 16th, 2006, 19:41
labels add no benifit and viewing/judging games on how they don't fit the 'genre' in question rather than their quallity of substance is ludacris to me. i realize the human mind naturally categorizes things to make our brains work more efficiently but to hold anything or waste time 'pontificating' or arguing about it makes no sense to me. to me its just another form of predjudice like looking at someones color and saying oh 'he's black' or 'she's asian'. a person can be african american and look completely white. you could go further and say all kinds of sterotypes about races, genders, which is only the mind 'categorizing' rather than 'humanizing'. calling people 'gay' or any other slew of derogatory remarks or insults only proves that some people are prone to dispute equality and don't really have any desire to 'take the quest' that envolves striping away the surface to understand the substance.
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