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Default No Mutants Allowed - A History of Fallout Fandom

February 2nd, 2007, 10:57
I'm with Corwin on this! We need the Grim man!
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February 2nd, 2007, 10:59
Maybe they will agree to updated graphics, and the use of a PhysX engine in the game, but they still want their turnbased combat and the other things in FO1 and FO2. However, this isn't a realistic approach in today's competetive market.
Quite the contrary. The very fact that there hasn't been a game like that since 1998 means that it's a market with underemployed resources. Developers and publishers acted like turn-based cRPGs were a thing of the past because they wanted to do something different, not because there wasn't a demand for them. Like it's been mentioned before, the Fallouts and even Tactics have been re-released several times over the last decade, and there was enough demand for them to re-release them a year ago. The demand is there, and it's sure as Hell enough to make the product profitable.

Maybe they can't drop half the budget on The Shiny and advanced "PhysX" engines like they did with Oblivion, but the money is there to be made.

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February 2nd, 2007, 11:23
If it would be well designed Isometric + TB, with great story, great dialogs and characters with rich personalities I would buy 5 copies of the game just to support the series with cash.
Is the Geneforge worth playing? I never saw it, is it really good as you say?
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February 2nd, 2007, 11:45
Yep. You'll want his other games as well. For five copies of each, that comes to $915. Mighty generous of you.

Statues wouldn't be better if they could move. Model airplanes would not be better if they were the same size as airplanes.
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February 2nd, 2007, 11:53
I don't have money I am poor university student but if Fallout 3 would be TB & Iso I woyuld buy it 5 times anyway. Fallout has a special place in my heart
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February 2nd, 2007, 12:02
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"Exactly right. I haven't heard a single remark that actually has to do with the article in this thread."
Humm, well I think some of us have, doctor_kaz certainly did then a couple of jokes then one dissenter, then as with myself we were talking about the premise set in the article trying to expand, understand and rationalize the cause and effects.
While went didn’t say the interview by name certainly some of the debate is what the article intended to cultivate, is it not?
Or do you really think we have all missed the premise and intent?

Well I did enjoy the article and looking forward to the series which is why I and I think others have been trying to participate, though I do understand why you could feel like that after having to deal with such intense disagreements.

Personally I don't know a lot about NMA other than they are the most reliable Fallout site and when I need something Fallout its where I go to get files, understand potential bugs and find fixes.
So I am not sure what several in the thread are referring too, other than being die RPG fans (if I understand correctly) which sounds like a great pastime since most of us here are RPG fans, some even diehard.

So for the record I really liked FO and FO2, though I am not an isometric view or TB Only fan.
As an example I found a lot of the same game design atmosphere, humor and quite possibly some of the best NPCs ever written, voiced and acted in another Troika game, Bloodlines on the other hand Arcanum was great too, all have been pretty dang buggy at least at release.

Trust me, most of the names I have been called you can't translate in any language…they're not even real words as much as a succession of violent images.
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February 2nd, 2007, 12:04
The graphics in GF are pre-historic, but it has great gameplay and is a lot of fun!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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February 2nd, 2007, 12:48
So for the record I really liked FO and FO2, though I am not an isometric view or TB Only fan.
It's not impossible to create a good roleplaying experience with a first-person real-time game, nobody's made that claim. The problem is that fans don't want a Fallout sequel that isn't isometric and turn-based. What's the point in doing it otherwise? That it is isometric and turn-based is part of why people loved the games, and if you change that part of the formula it doesn't feel like a Fallout game anymore.

Iso-TB and FP-RT are distinct experiences, and while one can argue that the one is superior to the other, there's no point in changing the fundamental feel of an established franchise. The only conceivable reason is to try and garner more fans, and historically that method has failed almost every single time.

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February 2nd, 2007, 20:39
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
The graphics in GF are pre-historic, but it has great gameplay and is a lot of fun!!
On the other hand it runs perfecty on the same prehistoric configurations and probably on a microwave oven as well!!!
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February 3rd, 2007, 01:10
Originally Posted by Kharn View Post
These and many more predictable recycled arguments to be debunked in the coming week!

Yeah, we totally never had good dev interaction! Did you even read the article the newspost linked to or did you just decide to comment out of the blue?

Your shock that a Fallout fansite would put other games below the game they are dedicated to is understandeable, though. Jeesh, talk about peripheral vision.
I apologize you are correct I hadn't actually read the article. I was commenting on how annoyed I had become with this particular niche.

The reason I didn't read the article is too often I have gone to the NMA site only to wish I hadn't. Those stupid cartoons of yours for instance.

So, I just finished reading the article now however, and after re-reading my own comments I still stand by them.

The lack of dev interaction I was referring to to was the comments from some of the devs themselves saying they stopped reading their own forums. That wasn't everyone of course.

I'm a fan of Fallout and enjoyed it immensely. These are hardly "myths" as you say. It might make you feel better to say that and if that's what you want, be my guest.

These are my observations as I've followed the game and the reactions over the years. I'm sorry to say they've earned reputation as its perceived. That's the way I see it. If I'm wrong why is this "mini-flame war" even going on?

To tell you the truth it was the hijacking of the top RPG list over at the .dot that I discovered this community in the first place. Either DaC or your NMA linked to it and it was the first time I saw the place.

It's not impossible to create a good roleplaying experience with a first-person real-time game, nobody's made that claim. The problem is that fans don't want a Fallout sequel that isn't isometric and turn-based.
you forgot the word some before the word fans there.

if you change that part of the formula it doesn't feel like a Fallout game anymore.
so you say. the fact that Fallout was so different from Wasteland did that stop it from keeping the same spirit? I said before the shots from Fo3 looked like they were recycling. Let's get this game up to the times. I tried playing FO2 again last year..its tedius and out of date.

That's all I'm going to say for now. And me without my Stimpack.

Hmm..how would a "History of the RPGDot/RPGWatch Regulars" article go over?
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February 3rd, 2007, 01:29
What, more work for the staff, another article suggestion!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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February 3rd, 2007, 03:29
you forgot the word some before the word fans there.
Why would you claim to be a fan of something and then want it to be something else? That would be kind of like saying Halo was a great game, but would have been a lot better as a real time strategy game.

Apparently, a lot of people are of the opinion that because the atmosphere, humor, etc. were so paramount to the success of the franchise, that these elements can be transplanted to a dissimilar game and still be a success. And it just might be. None of that really has to do with Fallout being a video game. Fallout was an isometric, turn-based roleplaying game.

Of course, without the atmosphere, humor, etc., Fallout would not have been as great. But Fallout was more than just a setting. The way the game played, in my opinion, had as much to do with its atmosphere as the story.

First person, real time games can be immersive. They have the ability to put you in the middle of the action in a way that causes you to think on your feet. This gives a certain atmosphere and because of this first person perspective and real time are frequently used in games that are fairly fast paced. Seeing exactly what your character is seeing facilitates games of this type. Fallout however is not fast paced. It was not an action game. It was a turn-based rpg. This, to anyone who plays video games, suggests an entirely different gaming experience than something such as Oblivion.

And this is why I believe Fallout fans (the majority of them anyways) seem to be very skeptical of Bethesda when they say that FO3 will be made on the same engine. Oblivion is very different from Fallout reguardless of what Bethesda thinks.

Basically I guess it comes down to whether you think Fallout was the sum of its parts or something greater, and I'd like to believe most Fallout fans take the latter position. Fallout was not a great game for any one reason; it was the accumulation of everything. The thought of removing any of it just doesn't sit right, which is why most of us would prefer it to be left alone than to be resurrected as something else, something not Fallout.

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February 3rd, 2007, 05:26
Originally Posted by hordespawn View Post
Why would you claim to be a fan of something and then want it to be something else?
I think you're making wrong use of the term "fan". I really, really don't want to start another or continue the flame war from earlier (really, I don't ) but the people that you are probably referring to (regulars at RPGCodex and NMA) are not Fallout fans. The people that you are referring to are completely obsessed with Fallout (and not in a good way if I may add). Obsession does not equal fandom.

Let me give you an example of fandom. Me. I'd consider myself a pretty big fan of the original Realms of Arkania trilogy that came to an end with Shadows over Riva in 1996. Ever since then there have been three attempts at games in the same world and setting (LMK, Armalion -both of which were cancelled- and Drakensang which is currently WIP).

I was kind of disappointed (especially with the first two, LMK and Armalion) to find out that all of those games would not continue in the tradition of the original trilogy but on the other hand, I was really happy that I would be able to return to this great virtual world (Aventuria) at all. I mean how awesome is that? They (licence holder Fanpro) could have just said 'ah feck it' and it looked like they did for a looong, looong time after Armalion was cancelled but then finally after years of waiting and hoping Drakensang was announced.

Sure, Drakensang is going to be completely different from the original RoA games but still… I'm perfectly able to accept that the developers have to make certain changes and compromises to turn the game into a (mainstream) success. Times are changing. It's a natural progression. Begging for an "old sk00l" Realms of Arkania experience would be right on par with begging for black and white TV to return. Ain't gonna happen. Period.

That's why I'm keeping an open mind about Drakensang. Of course, it might turn out that I don't like the game. Maybe they're going to screw up the design in some way or another but that risk is associated with any game. We'll see about that.

Drakensang will be giving me the opportunity to revisit a virtual world and setting that I like a lot. I'm looking forward to it. Gameplay or perspective changes don't matter to me as long as the game is fun. Which I hope it will be.
I'm also one of those strange people who really enjoyed C&C Renegade. As a first person shooter it was radically different from the C&C RTS series, of course, but still… it was great fun to play a different game in the same world and setting. I didn't have a problem with that at all and never felt the need to spew forth endless amounts of crap and hate at the developers of Renegade or -now- Drakensang.

Maybe because I'm a fan and not pathologically obsessed like certain other people(?)
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February 3rd, 2007, 06:46
Bradylama
"nobody's made that claim."
Right, I was just sharing my personal, open to “all views” preference.

"The problem is that fans don't want a Fallout sequel that isn't isometric and turn-based."
Well that maybe true and justified for many or even most Fallout fans.
I would wager however that, if say Troika had decided to make a more variable view game, for instance with a cam similar to NWN2 to allow personal preferences of perspective views, to maybe see new and improved graphics or whatever, it wouldn't have an negative effect, even to the fans whom only want an Iso view.
I also submit that allowing choice of play style is part of the core philosophy which makes Fallout series standout above other games.

"What's the point in doing it otherwise…..oesn't feel like a Fallout game anymore."
Percepually sound but as I just mentioned above not accurate 100% of the time and is why I listed various other view possiblity choice without effect and reasons why these personal choices could exist in harmony with your view.

"Iso-TB and FP-RT are distinct experiences….."
True and as you mentioned there is no point to change fundementals, but there are ways to enhance the original feel or concepts by allowing choice which does bring more fans and personally I have no objections and actually encouage devs to actually retain core princapale but provide more choices, since smaller nitch titles are hard to sustain without new fans, otherwise the whole concept can be killed off, until someone else trys to pickup where others failed to get the proper balance to continue to survive.

hordespawn
"And this is why I believe Fallout fans (the majority of them anyways) seem to be very skeptical of Bethesda when they say that FO3"
I sure hope you don't think just because we are a little more open to enhancing Fallout, suggest we support Bethseda, good lord you are in the wrong forums if you think "we think" Bethseda is going to do justice to Fallout.

Bethseda has had to actually hire an outside wirter to actually create the one of the better questlines they have ever had, the Dark Brotherhood.
Personaly if I had to choose I of all the quests I like the Thief guild quest the best.
Hell PB's worst quest (I haven't a clue what that is, since I like them all) would still be better than most anything if not all Bethseda's quests.
The only positive things I have been able to say about this situation is the Editor and Character Creation. I personally think more choices is a good thing.

Trust me, most of the names I have been called you can't translate in any language…they're not even real words as much as a succession of violent images.
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February 3rd, 2007, 07:12
Originally Posted by hordespawn View Post
Why would you claim to be a fan of something and then want it to be something else? That would be kind of like saying Halo was a great game, but would have been a lot better as a real time strategy game.
A fan could appreciate something for what it was and not need to see it repeated a second time. That fan could want to try something that had never been done before — like a first-person, real-time game in the Fallout milieu — without wishing the original had taken that tack. I'm speaking hypothetically, since I fucking hated the mechanics of the first two games, but the idea that "a fan of something" must want to see that thing rehashed over and over is not necessarily the case.

Statues wouldn't be better if they could move. Model airplanes would not be better if they were the same size as airplanes.
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February 3rd, 2007, 07:32
I think a LOT of people feel that the very WORST developer for the Fallout Licence is Bethsoft, simply because the things they do worst, are the things which really stand out as the strengths of the original games!! Sorry, but Oblivion with guns does NOT equal a Fallout game for me!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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February 3rd, 2007, 08:28
I take the opposite view. I see Bethsoft's chief strength in its ability to develop and respect a fictional world, which is where the appeal of Fallout lies for me. The dialogue in the original never impressed me as anything more than workmanlike. Great voice acting, though.

Statues wouldn't be better if they could move. Model airplanes would not be better if they were the same size as airplanes.
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February 3rd, 2007, 08:55
I guess I was a little too specific. My post was not meant to be a "copy the original down to the letter" but rather to stay true to the basis of the game. I'll be the first to say that the Fallout world is rather captivating and visiting it in a different way could be refreshing. People have adapted Fallout for tabletop gameplay. I've looked over it and changes were made to the game. For the most part though, they kept what was already established as good, added a few twists for novelty, gave the option of experiencing the world from a different point of view, and made some changes to make it playable with dice.

I'm not against change. A rehash of the first two games would be pointless, but just taking the name and slapping it on something completely different wouldn't be any better. There are certain aspects of the game that could be updated, but if you want to change practically everything then what's the point of calling it a Fallout game? I personally liked the combat system in Fallout, but a modification of the combat system wouldn't necessarily be bad. I can't realistically see a Fallout game being made first person and real time and still manage to keep its rpg elements intact though. Something along the lines of NWN might not be so bad (NWN still had a turn based element to it, it's just abstracted and put on a timer), but that's not what can be expected from FO3.

There's also the other facts that FO's original developers are all but gone. If Fallout was still in the hands of the original developers, I think the Fallout fanbase would be different. But it isn't. It's as if a novelist had created an amazing world, and then stopped writing only for someone else to come in and continue the story. Invariably, it will be different, and very likely it will miss the mark that made the original great. This holds true to a lesser extent with video games. There are additional complications in that video games are made by teams rather than individuals, but a radical change in the dev team will mean a significantly different game. In Fallout's past, this has often meant that the game didn't really fit within the Fallout universe which caused the allure of revisiting the setting you liked to not really be as strong as it should have been.

Even assuming that FO3 was to be made by someone other than Bethesda, I have really yet to hear any compelling reasons why a turn based engine could not be successful. Real time is not the "wave of the future", it's just different, not better or worse.

And for the record, I never assumed any of you thought that Bethesda would do Fallout justice, I was pointing out that they are the ones who are making the game so ultimately the get to decided what goes into the game, reguardless of what any so-called fan would prefer.

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February 3rd, 2007, 08:57
One simple question: How many really memorable NPC's has Bethsoft ever created? Please name them!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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February 3rd, 2007, 10:18
Sure. I remember these people as vividly as I do any other videogame character, bar those in Planescape: Torment. You may not, but your memory is a faulty instrument and not to be trusted.

Dagoth Ur, the mad god
Vivec, the bored god
Caius Cosades, the cynical shirtless crackhead
Crassius Curio - come on
Divayth Fyr and his creepy clones
Yagrum, the last dwarf
Maiq, but that's cheating
Owyn, the Arena Blademaster
Lucien LaChance, the ham
The Night Mother
The Gray Prince
Mazoga, th- pardon me, Sir Mazoga
Mankar Camoran, who certainly made the most of his screen time

I could go on if you like.

Statues wouldn't be better if they could move. Model airplanes would not be better if they were the same size as airplanes.
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