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April 12th, 2007, 02:43
I would say that education is not equal. Let's face it—suburban "upper crust" schools have more resources, better teachers, and better parent support than inner city schools. It's unfortunate, because I'm sure there are good kids that want to succeed but don't get a fair chance. On the other hand, there's lots of kids (in both situations) that waste the opportunity they're given. Given demographics, this could be considered a legit racial issue.

I agree with you on the other 3. Those aren't racially exclusive problems. Certainly major contributors to the failure of kids of all races, but not racially exclusive.

Big kudos to elkston for looking beyond the propaganda and taking some personal responsibility. It's so easy to accept failure and then point the finger (I think that's where Jesse and Al are leading); it's refreshing and encouraging that such nonsense hasn't been universally accepted by the black community. I was impressed as hell when Cosby made his comments, and terribly disappointed when much of the black "leadership" crucified him for it. It's good to see Cos isn't standing alone.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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April 12th, 2007, 03:39
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
Elkston, forgive my ignorance, but I thought education, at least, was equal in America. Self discipline, is not a 'black' issue, it's a problem everywhere because 'liberals' have propagated the belief that we have a 'right' to 'express' ourselves as we wish. Poor self image, is also universal; just ask everyone on a diet.
Brown vs the Board of Education, Topeka, (1954) desegregated our schools, but I would say that nothing is equal in America. We just like to pretend it is. But the dichotomy of privilege is a lot less dependent on color than it once was due to people on both sides of the color line who have worked to change things.

IMO, people like Sharpton are an insult to the African Americans who spent their lives working to improve conditions for their race, who made personal sacrifices, and who never made money or got their name plastered all over the media while doing so.

Role models? There aren't many around for anyone. In some ways, I think american blacks have some of the best: A good example would be the many NFL players who have risen above horrendous childhoods to make a success out of their lives. I'm not denying that their aren't 'race' problems in america, but I'm not sure the root causes are what you listed. Again, I'm looking 'in' from afar, but perception is important!!
I agree, Corwin on the lack of role models being universal. Unfortunately, black NFL superstars are more of a stereotype than a real success story.The two fields that in the past have been most open to African Americans are sports and music. Many of the men and women who rise to fame in these fields are grossly exploited from childhood and have the odds for any lasting financial success stacked against them. A lot of very famous and successful black sports figures(not to mention stellar jazz musicians) have ended their lives in the same poverty they came from.

I grew up in the north, where segregation was illegal (yes, even back then!! ) but there was still bigotry and racism. It's a battle that is fought in people's minds and hearts as much as in the courts. chamr may have a point maintaining that unchecked idiocy can be used by idiots to substantiate their racism, I just don't think that's the case in the Imus situation. As roqua said, the issue is self-limiting. He's branded himself and everyone who listens to him as beyond the pale, corporate sponsors are pulling the plug, MSNBC won't air his show,etc. If I were one of the Rutgers women he slandered, I would be suing him for all he was worth. All these things are appropriate to the situation. Nobody needed to head up a lynch mob and pretend that he's a mainstream threat to civil rights.

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April 12th, 2007, 04:48
Why would you sue if you were a Rutger women? On what basis? It made you feel bad? What if the Rutger women sueing made me feel bad, could I sue them? I thought free speach was protected. It wasn't libel, it wasn't lsander, and it wasn't defimation of character (unless I can sue someone that calls me slang like dog).

Why is everyone so sue happy?
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April 12th, 2007, 05:48
I believe it's the American Way!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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April 12th, 2007, 07:23
Originally Posted by roqua View Post
Why would you sue if you were a Rutger women? On what basis? It made you feel bad? What if the Rutger women sueing made me feel bad, could I sue them? I thought free speach was protected. It wasn't libel, it wasn't lsander, and it wasn't defimation of character (unless I can sue someone that calls me slang like dog).

Why is everyone so sue happy?
Have you looked at the faces of the team as they line up to be grilled by the media on their feelings? These are young women whose lives have been totally derailed by this jackass. Calling them whores is slander, as they are not engaged in selling sex for money, but playing basketball and trying to get an education. And yes, if they insulted you on national airspace and made you a household word and forced you to deal with every pushy journalist on the street shoving a microphone in your face, you would certainly be entitled to the same legal redress. These young women may be big enough human beings to forgive the guy, but that wouldn't be me.

I don't see this as being sue happy—that's when you suck down some boiling hot coffee because you have no brain function telling you not to and sue the vendor.

BTW roqua I'm glad you're back.

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April 12th, 2007, 09:57
In my opinion, the whole thing has been blown way out of proportion.

As stated by others, Imus is a shock jock. He often lets go a barrage of racist and derogatory remarks about various groups or individuals. His audience tunes in to listen to this as part of "the product" that he sells, if you will. He mixes sarcasm and humor so that you can't really be sure if he's serious about what he's saying or just joking. This is what his audience tunes in to listen to.

MSNBC and the various advertisers who have been so quick to pull their sponsorship know the kind of program that he runs and have been quite happy with it to date. It's completely hypocritical for them to get on their high horses now.

Anyone who feels offended by anything Imus says, certainly has the right to sue him or his network. It's not for me to decide who has a case or who doesn't. Let the Lawyers and courts decide that. Bear in mind however, that our country has already decided that it's legal for the KKK and the American NAZI party to spread their belief's and recruit new members.

I will say that I feel it's silly for anyone to take the remarks heard on his show personally. You have to understand that it's all part of "the show" so to speak and is designed to attract listeners for the purpose of earning money. It's not meant to be taken personally. Considering how long Imus has been on the air and all of the people and groups he's ragged on, I seriously doubt that his personal opinion matches what he says even 50% of the time. Probably much less. I doubt that he really considers any of the group as "nappy headed ho's".

The bottom line? If you don't like that kind of show, don't listen to him. Period.

The only real concern should be whether we want a show that could be seen as an encouragement for racism to be on the air. But, this brings up disturbing problems as well. If we decide that we as a society should not encourage verbage that might spread racism and that it's appropriate for us to take action to prevent its possible spread, then shouldn't we also outlaw music lyrics that could be viewed as "racist"?

We allow various musicians and "Rappers" to write songs that include lyrics using the "N" word and calling women "Ho's". We even let them sing about "Capping" people (killing them). As I see it, we either have to form a new entity to be our "Race Police" or stand behind "freedom of speech", which says that if I don't like the name you called me, I can call you something worse in return and even provide an appropriate hand signal that says "Ha, how do you like me now!?".

Since the "Race Police" sound like way too much work and I'm already a supporter of "freedom of speech", I'll cast my vote for the latter.
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April 12th, 2007, 14:38
Originally Posted by magerette View Post
Have you looked at the faces of the team as they line up to be grilled by the media on their feelings? These are young women whose lives have been totally derailed by this jackass. Calling them whores is slander, as they are not engaged in selling sex for money, but playing basketball and trying to get an education. And yes, if they insulted you on national airspace and made you a household word and forced you to deal with every pushy journalist on the street shoving a microphone in your face, you would certainly be entitled to the same legal redress. These young women may be big enough human beings to forgive the guy, but that wouldn't be me.

I don't see this as being sue happy—that's when you suck down some boiling hot coffee because you have no brain function telling you not to and sue the vendor.

BTW roqua I'm glad you're back.
The legal resdress should be freedom of speach, attack back. No one seriously called them anything, it was a joke.

And the fact they are female is irrelevant. Is our society supposed to be equal or no? Even if there are blatant examples of when its not equal we shouldn't enforce that by seprating women from men in the arena of slang names.

What if Howard K. Stern sued everyone that didn't take his side in this stupid case because his name is a jew name and thats why they went after him?

What if Imus called a guy team a bunch of ball licking child molestors? WHat if he called the same girls a bunch of up-tight puritans? Whats an okay fake insult to give? And what not? What if he called them all dykes? Or tangled haired cave-women?

Either we have free speach and you can insult at will wihtout being sued (unless it actually is libel, slander, or defimation of character) or you can't. It has to be even across the board or the whole system will be even more of a joke than it is right now.

Edit: Thanks for the welcome back. I never really left, just lurked a little.
Last edited by roqua; April 12th, 2007 at 22:35.
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April 12th, 2007, 15:40
Originally Posted by roqua View Post
Either we have free speach and you can insult at will wihtout being sued (unless it actually is libel, slander, or defimation of character) or you can't. It has to be even across the board or the whole system will be even more of a joke than it is right now.
That is my point - the court of public opinion already goes by 'you should be killed for making someone feel bad', but public policy based on that is unconstitutional and destructive.

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April 12th, 2007, 19:09
yeah… people in 'power' the media/talkshow hosts should have the freedom to destroy people's character by any means and pulling them into a den of lions when they are not in a line of work that dictates a professional spotlight…
just because everyone else on the outside on any side has no business making themselves involved in the escalation of this, everything is the fault of imus as he may the error. freedom comes with responsibilities and anyone who thinks otherswise might as well just exhume are forefathers/mothers corpses and defile them. while not a fan of either 'reverend' i think they have more of a right to intervene and push their questionable motives than imus had in saying what he said. also where i come from calling any woman a whore is the worst thing you can call do to her save of beating her.
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April 12th, 2007, 20:47
I think the guy's got all the attention he wants.

Even now from us here.

He's what I have once read as the term "attention whore".
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April 12th, 2007, 22:31
Originally Posted by curious View Post
yeah… people in 'power' the media/talkshow hosts should have the freedom to destroy people's character by any means and pulling them into a den of lions when they are not in a line of work that dictates a professional spotlight…
just because everyone else on the outside on any side has no business making themselves involved in the escalation of this, everything is the fault of imus as he may the error. freedom comes with responsibilities and anyone who thinks otherswise might as well just exhume are forefathers/mothers corpses and defile them. while not a fan of either 'reverend' i think they have more of a right to intervene and push their questionable motives than imus had in saying what he said. also where i come from calling any woman a whore is the worst thing you can call do to her save of beating her.
Well, here in civilized society being called a whore hasn't been that bad of an insult since women got all uppity and started wearing pants and engaging in other whore activities. Its still an effective insult and thats why its a good insult, especially when they aren't whores. If you are trying to insult someone why use a bad insult? And Imus said hoe, not whore.

And how did Imus error? He insults people all the time. Wouldn't an insult error only be an error if it wasn't insulting? And if no one has any reason to be involved in the esculation of this wouldn't that actually mean people should keep their opinions to themselves, kind of taking the free out of free speach?

And whose character was destroyed? The team's as a whole? No one has ever been sued over "defamation of characters." There is no sole identifiable victim. There wasn't even a false accusation against anyone. There was no damage made to anyones reputation. It was a joke, made against a team. Feed them to the lions? You are an odd feller, and quite dramatic. Did i just defame your character? Listen to the audio of the incident and tell me anyone's reputation was in jeopardy.

And your little patriotic speach about our forefathers is great. Exept we have the right not to be responsible with our freedoms. There is no responsiblity on my part not to allow soldier's to quarter in my house. I can lie every second of every day. I can say "George Bush molestor Hitler when he was young and thats why Hitler started the Nazi party." I can also say there was no holocaust and jews are liars. I can say black people smell like fish. I can abuse my right of free speach with no responsibility all day long. I can even say all women are whores. I can say all sorts of mean and hurtful things. I can love it and smile while doing it.

Let's say I overdrew my bank account and i got charged an overdraft fee. If I said, "All Banks are thieves." No one could sue me. If I said, "[Name of my bank] are thieves and stole my money." They have a defamtion case against me. But if overdraft fees are thievery is a matter of opinion, so they wont win and are just wasting money bringing me to court.

Imus could define whore as anyone engaging in sexual activity without being married, in which case if you have a group of more than 2 American girls over 18 together you certain to have a whore. He is entitled to his opinion on what a whore is and who or what group are whores. The Klan can have a national show and say all blacks and jews are inferior races. I don't think they'd bring in the ratings, but they have a right to their own opinion and they have a right to share that with whoever will listen.

Yes, free radio is public air and his freedom of speach is curbed by laws, but he violated none of them. He didn't use any word banned by the fcc or do anything that he isn't allowed to do. He made a joke, the wrong person heard, and now our freedom of speach has been a little more marginalized. Chalk one up for tyrrany.

I don't see how anyone can't see a perfect correlation between mccarthyism and political-correctness.
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April 12th, 2007, 22:42
It's definitely out of proportion, why is everyone calling him racist? He was talking about the whole team when he said "That's some nappy-headed hos there", he didn't say "them black girls".

Yes, it was a stupid comment, but I don't think he should be fired over it. Why is it that black comedians seem to be able to say anything thing they want about other races and nobody blinks, but as soon as a white man makes an offhand remark everyone wants his head on a platter.
Last edited by JDR13; April 12th, 2007 at 22:58.
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April 12th, 2007, 22:49
words can be just as destructive as weapons as everyone knows
since thankfully its not legal to use weapons on another living being in most cases
i see no reason people should have the 'freedom' to use words in the same way.
destructive behavior breads a destrucive society.
but i guess some folks like chaos and carnage
over thoughtfulness and restraint.
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April 12th, 2007, 22:55
Originally Posted by curious View Post
i see no reason people should have the 'freedom' to use words in the same way.
So you believe that … um … someone … should decide the appropriate and inappropriate words that people can legally use, and in what context they can use them?

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April 12th, 2007, 22:57
i agree JDR13 that most comedians, black or any race/religon think that they can make insults about their own group, but even though most of it is not really funny, it may improve the calmraderie between some people. personally i think the worst thing i've ever seen and been disgusted by was sarah silverman's 'jesus is magic'…no words for that one.
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April 12th, 2007, 23:03
no mike, i don't. the fcc doesn't allow obscenity (which isn't offensive to me) but allows alot more stuff i don't agree with it. i personally would never vote for anything that would add more restraints. i just dream/hope of a country/world where people value honour and integrity. those kind of things can't be forced on anyone anyhow nor should they be attempted to. to me they are just more 'stretchmarks' on a civilization whose health is waning.
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April 12th, 2007, 23:20
Oh, I completely agree with you - responsibility is an individual thing, not a state thing. Same with character, honor and trust. Too many people in the world (not just US) lack those things.

It was the 'should not have the freedom' thing that tweaked me!

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April 12th, 2007, 23:33
So now we get to the meat of it. There shouldn't be a law, but people shouldn't do it. How do you get them not to do it? And what if a women thinks your views of being called a hoe is as bad as being beaten physically is offensive. You are adding to waining health of our society, right? Unless you are saying that you know better than a woman what should offend her?

How society used to work is through discrimination and prejudice. If someone didn't value what your group valued, and wasn't willing to conform, they wouldn't be allowed in that group. Society governed their own norms and mors. I am not talking about discriminating against race and religion by the way, just values.

Its the same way now, but agenda driven. It isn't illegal for a pregnant woman to smoke, but how many dirty looks would a pregnant woman get smoking in public? No need for a law, societal presure stops that but for the most low class people. I can't go into a fancy restuarant, be loud and make racist comments, and then expect the patrons to invite me to their dinner oparties next week, could I?

Its self governing. And if people have a problem with what Imus says, the free market should take care of it. If this remark was so offensive to everyone I hope they wouldn't listen to his show and put money in his pocket.

And it sounds like you are quite bigoted against those that are insulting. I also wish this country were different in many ways. I wish people would see that my opinion on everything is right and what I do should be emmulated by children and everyone should value everything I do. But how does that increase our diversity?

And no, no one with an ounce of reason believes names are as harmful as weapons. Weapons cause real harm, words can only cause fake, temporary harm to sissies. Call me any name in the book, it won't hurt me at all.
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April 13th, 2007, 00:30
Just saw a news update that Imus has indeed now been fired. Total bull sh*t!
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April 13th, 2007, 00:32
Originally Posted by roqua View Post
*snip*

Its self governing. And if people have a problem with what Imus says, the free market should take care of it. If this remark was so offensive to everyone I hope they wouldn't listen to his show and put money in his pocket.

And it sounds like you are quite bigoted against those that are insulting. I also wish this country were different in many ways. I wish people would see that my opinion on everything is right and what I do should be emmulated by children and everyone should value everything I do. But how does that increase our diversity?

And no, no one with an ounce of reason believes names are as harmful as weapons. Weapons cause real harm, words can only cause fake, temporary harm to sissies. Call me any name in the book, it won't hurt me at all.
roqua you've presented a lot of thought provoking material in that post and somewhat to my surprise I agree with a lot of it.

Your last statement though is a little superficial. Back when the earth's crust was still cooling, I had a high school English teacher who basically told us:
"If you say you can't express something in words, then you are pretty well screwed, because words are all we have. " You aren't going to do much effective communicating with ESP. You can express hatred, anger, disapproval and dismissal of a person's worth pretty well with words.

Words are tools and weapon. They can be more effective, be remembered longer and cause far more harm than a physical slap in the face. Words fuel the propaganda machine, words cause wars, name-calling and insults cause pain, especially out of the blue from total strangers on the national news. I don't think you have to be a sissie to value your reputation .

All harm short of death is temporary harm. It may not be the deep drastic harm we think it is at the time. It may become something that ultimately changes someone for the better, but at the time it happens, it's very real.

If Imus had joked around in the same room with these women and no one else had gotten involved, it would be a one on one thing as you describe. Most people would laugh and shrug it off. But the media got involved. The insult that isn't really an insult isn't the big deal here to me. It's the disruption of lives, the being exposed to the entire world like a specimen under a microscope, the fact that any resume these women submit in the next ten years will be from one of those NHH from Rutgers, not from Jane Doe the person that I think is the problem.

But then, I just hate the media.

@JDR13—I agree with your comment also. Total BS.

Edit: I think tangle-haired cavewomen is more of a compliment, myself. Yes, everything is relative.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
Last edited by magerette; April 13th, 2007 at 00:40. Reason: reply to earlier post
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