Obsidian Entertainment - More Feargus

I hope this doesn't sound too harsh but that's as much turn-based as if I told you Fallout is basically realtime — just hit the "end turn" button really fast and it's practically the same.

Not really, becuse in FO, no matter how fast you hit end turn, enemies don't attack at the same time. At no point are actions taken simultaneously. In every IE or nwn or Kotor game everyone acts simultaneously, or in real time. Regardless how much you pause, when you unapuse everyone starts moving again at the same time, or in real time. ANd in FO, no matter how fast you hit end turn, everyone has their own turn and no one ever, in combat, takes actions at the same time.

FO goes from RT to TB when you enter combat, and then back to RT when combat ends. But during combat it is always TB. And in nwn, IE games, and Kotor, its always RT, regardless if you are in combat or not. Pausing has nothing to do with it. Pause means stop, end means end. TB and Phase systems have ends, RT systems have pause.

Roqua you idiot - that wasn't meant to be literal. I'm saying NWN2-with-pause-pressing is as close to turnbased as Fallout is close to realtime just because you press the button quickly.

In other words - it just isn't.

Oh, okay. You had me worried for a minute. They don't call me retarded for nothing.

Oh, how much do you pay them!!

Nothing, they do it out of kindness

But you said they didn't do it for nothing!!

I show them my boobs.

Originally Posted by roqua
Let's say you had it set to pause everytime combat started, and all characters were on full puppet mode and would not act with out your input, so it paused when the character had nothing queued. At the most this would be phase, or round based, since every character does not complete an idividual turn.

But, since all actions are always performed at the same time, that is why it is ccompletetly RT combat, since combat, when not paused happenes in RT. Whereas in a phase system (like wiz 8, you queue your commands, and every character and enemy performs the commands individually). In order not to be RT, characters would not attack in RT (meaning, the same time).

I'm not sure I understand. Remember that NWN2 is still round-based internally, albeit with no common frame of reference. Actions aren't carried out at the same time - they are carried out once per round.. then sit on a ticker until the round comes again. The commands are carried out individually.

Or do you mean turn-based as in non-simultanious, as in person A fully completes their action, then person B has their go, then person C etc? If so I think I understand what you mean, though that wasn't what I would refer to as turn based as you can get many turn-based games where the turn is more to do with a fixed round in which you have instructions/they are carried out, which can then be resolved simultaniously with the computer.

Guess we're talking about turn-based instruction vs turn-based action. NWN2 can easily do the former, but not the latter.

Conversely what I understand by 'real time' is really 'real time instruction'

Originally Posted by kalniel
Or do you mean turn-based as in non-simultanious, as in person A fully completes their action, then person B has their go, then person C etc? If so I think I understand what you mean, though that wasn't what I would refer to as turn based as you can get many turn-based games where the turn is more to do with a fixed round in which you have instructions/they are carried out, which can then be resolved simultaniously with the computer.

Yes, this is what we mean. And you answer the issue yourself when you say "you can get many turn-based games where the turn is more to do with a fixed round". Just so - those games are round based, not turn-based.

Whilst games like NWN2 have rounds on individual timers, the actions are still resolved simultaneously in realtime (even though the various characters might be on a different heartbeat). This is completely different gameplay to real turn-based (IGOUGO) and many concessions are made with the D&D ruleset to accomodate NWN2's (et al) gameplay.

I can appreciate this may not be to an individual's taste but for those that prefer TB, it can't shoe-horned into realtime just by pausing the simultaneous action.

To use ToEE as an example, let's say my party suddenly encounters a Hill Giant and my weak gnome mage is within the giant's range. He will surely get squashed by the first attack. The combat stack shows the order (based on initiative) for combat, and I can see that three characters get to act before the giant but the mage was caught flat-footed and won't act until after. My first three characters need to kill or disable the giant, or somehow buff or protect the mage to survive.

Because of the strict turn order and the known number of action points, I can plot out a course of action with greater depth and precision using a wider variety of tactics (including Charging, Tripping, weapon reach considerations and so on) in a way that would just become a jumble in realtime. The turns and action points make initiative and dexterity more important (and reward their use) and ranged weapons are more tactical (the distance isn't simply closed in the first round before any shots are fired).

I find this sort of situation far more gripping than the realtime combat in NWN, BG etc and it just can't be simulated by pausing.

Yep, Dhruin expressed it perfectly; that is why I love TB combat- it makes you think!! You're actually playing a game, not just clicking a mouse button!!

I've got the same sentiment, things are much more fun Turn based.

Baldur's gate was what first got me playing D&D, and I never got to play much TB games, they all had RT, so I never knew what I was missing.

I've recently stumbled onto POR2 and I'm going to borrow TOEE, and I'm really pretty excited, I'm still trying to get POR2 to work at the moment, and I've shelved NWN2 as well, it got boring, I enjoy tactical combat over dialogue, I can get dialogue in ANY game, I want my D&D turnbased goodness! :/

Originally Posted by ThatGuy
I've got the same sentiment, things are much more fun Turn based.

I enjoy tactical combat over dialogue, I can get dialogue in ANY game, I want my D&D turnbased goodness! :/

Get hold of The Gold Box games if you want turn based goodness. Of course you have to be willing to put up with extremely dated graphics and sound, but if you love D&D and turn-based combat these are the games for you.

You can usually get them on ebay (especially collection CDs) and you will need DosBox to play them.

I'm more of a 3.5E person, but I'll definetly hit up the gold boxes up once I get POR2 working, as well as TOEE finished a few times, thanks for the advice!

I wouldn't really hold POR2 up as good combat. It was slow and pretty optionless. They changed to 3.0 from ad&d and its about as bland as ad&d combat. I would suggest, if you are looking for good TB combat, and ad&d, buck rogers. Also, if not ad&d, you already mentioned ToEE (great combat), then JA2 and Silent Storm. But definitely JA2 and ToEE. I think the combat in Realms of Arkania is great, but a lot of others disagree. But it will be hard to find anyone that holds the combat in POR2 up as a shining example of good combat. I liked POR2 more than most people, and I semi-enjoyed the combat, but it isn't a good example of TB combat in my opinion.

@ThatGuy
Try Fallout if you can find it!! It's not D&D, but for great TB combat, it's excellent. Arcanum is another title you might enjoy.

FO 1 and 2 are great games, but the way the mechanics work it kind of reward you for saving and reloading over and over. Can't kill the deathclaw? Save and reload to get eye crits everytime. (ambigous for no spoilers): got sucked into some guys downstairs office and not want to give in? No big deal, shoot your way out by saving and reloading to guarantee a win without actually cheating. Kind of takes the fun out of the combat unless you have enough will power to not do that. And, its only single character. Dogmeat isn't bad since he doesn't use ranged, but especially in part 2 party memebers add the only real strategy to the combat by shooting you a lot.

I think the combat of FO has the chance to be grade A, but the mechanics have to fit it (no saving during combat) and it could really benefit (as any combat system would) from having controllable group members.

Arcanum is another fantastic game, but the combat was not really a highlight of what made the game great. It was pretty sloppy in RT (but quick) and pretty choice free in TB. A couple tough battles, but the only section of the game I think an actually strategy had to be really emploed was the mine cave with the rock guys. Also the one little portal thing south of the inventors house if you were really underleveled for it.

But you did name two great games corwin, I just have to disgree with your recommendation if he is looking for games with good TB combat.

And roqua, which ones would you suggest!!

Am I correct in naming the Might and Magic series? After the in-depth scalpel -in-hand dissection of what exactly is Tb and what is round-based, I can only hope I am right.
As I recall, in M&M, your characters each had initiative which determined when and how often they would act, but they did act one at a time in a strict sequence.

Not that i need to say this, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: I just realized that you could also play through combat without pausing, which might technically disqualify them. I never did, though.

The last might and magic I played was world of xeen, and I cant really remember how combat worked, but I remember the dragon kiting example in the beginning of 6 or 7 where you run around shoting the dragon.

Going off of memory, in eob, it was phased time. The enemy didn't move unless you moved, but when you performed an action the enmy moved at the same time. So it kind of like mock RT, but time is broken down into RT phases. I guess you could look at that as super TB RT instead of phase. But if I remember right thats how combat was in m&m. But I think in at least 9 nthe enemies moved regardless if you did or not, and your parties actions were just broken up into time chunks. But again, I am going off of memory and talking about games I was never a big fan of and never put much thought into.