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June 19th, 2007, 01:10
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June 19th, 2007, 01:16
No, and RPGWatch is the least place I'd expect that to happen, so let Fallout loverz speak their voice and NMA haterz likewise.

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June 19th, 2007, 02:53
While I don't visit NMA frequently, I have been a regular visitor since its inception many years ago. It caters to its clientelle effectively, just as we try to do. If you don't like what they do/say, then don't visit their site!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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June 19th, 2007, 03:58
I too was a regular visitor until I was told that I was a f*cking idiot, retarded, etc., etc., because I dared to speak out against the party line (i.e., Fallout 3 will suck no matter what). NMA is into group think real big time.
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June 19th, 2007, 05:25
Originally Posted by Asbjoern View Post
oh, so it's wrong for people to talk about NMA but it's quite okay for NMA to over and over and over talk about how Fallout 3 is going to "suck",
Uh, yeah, we're a Fallout fansite, we talk about Fallout. As far as I know there's no NMA fansite, and as such I have to agree with Dhruin in being puzzled why people think NMA is more important to talk about than Fallout. Especially on places like Something Awful and Penny Arcade.

Originally Posted by Asbjoern View Post
I think people only want to have NMA to treat Bethesda and others reasonably without being prejudiced and biased about every little detail that might be "against the soule of Fallout".
If people want us to do that, they should join NMA and talk to us. Talking about us a lot won't change anything in a hurry.

Originally Posted by Asbjoern View Post
And by the way. How can people not talk about NMA and other "hardcore" Fallout fans, when it is NMA and others that have released a number of articles revolving around the importance and dedication of Fallout fans.
A number? Oh…eh…I guess 1 is a number too, yeah.

NMA is into group think real big time.
Yeah, I totally completely agree with you, they all the think the same, totally unlike all of us!

(sorry, always wanted to do that)
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June 19th, 2007, 07:44
You guys are free to talk about whatever you like. That said, I find it incredibly tiresome when a bunch of different sites I visit start talking about Fallout and then the thread turns into "Oh, man! I can't wait to see the shitstorm over at NMA! I'm going over there right now just to see!!". It happens all the time - more talk about NMA than Fallout itself.

As far as I can see noone mentioned NMA or made any outlandish comments in this thread but BillSeurer comes along and adds "NMA hates everything". Sure. Umm.

Which he is entirely entitled to say on this site - no problem. But I'm entitled to say I'm sick of talking about NMA whenever Fallout comes up.

Just my opinion - you guys are free to jump on me and say I'm wrong if you like.

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June 19th, 2007, 10:07
We have it on good authority that Fallout fans are "perhaps the most important consumers" of a new Fallout game. I regard the opinions of such a possibly significant group of people as perhaps worthy of discussion — pending resolution of whether their opinions really are more important than those of Oblivion fans.

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June 19th, 2007, 10:31
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
Just my opinion - you guys are free to jump on me and say I'm wrong if you like.
I second that emotion. Most of the posters from there that come over here arent trolling and being assholes anyway, there's no reason to constantly rag on them and their site. Youre being as bad as they supposedly are, if youre going to knee-jerk bash them at every turn. Isnt that the main criticism? Knee-jerk response?

It's not us VS them! Relax!
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June 19th, 2007, 11:17
Originally Posted by xSamhainx View Post
I second that emotion. Most of the posters from there that come over here arent trolling and being assholes anyway, there's no reason to constantly rag on them and their site. Youre being as bad as they supposedly are, if youre going to knee-jerk bash them at every turn. Isnt that the main criticism? Knee-jerk response?

It's not us VS them! Relax!
It was Roshambo that really got my pulse racing over there, and he had an unhealthy effect on several others that liked to gather in his shadow. Since Rosh retreated, NMA seems a rather likable and rational place whenever I browse the threads there, and no more prone to group think than any other RPG site.
And at least these guys know how to make an argument. But a reputation is hard to shake off, and of course there is a certain Coquetery with the toughboy image ( "glittering gems of hatred") on that side of the fence too. I don't want to belittle or dismiss the discussion, which I am also taking part in - but I also on a certain level have to admit that the culture clash on the Bethesda forums is interesting and entertaining to watch.
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June 19th, 2007, 12:10
I just understood your former post, Dhruin, as that you meant people here at RPGWatch should perhaps watch their mouth. So I more or less felt targeted.
But I think the problem with others commenting about NMA is, that not that many have actually played Fallout 1-2, but Fallout is still a very big deal in the world of gaming. Just look at the newspost at NMA, where they wrote about a GameSpot poll about the teaser trailer. What was the number, 40% or so in the poll didn't know what Fallout was but still it had its own poll at a mayor gaming website. So when there's a lot of talk about Fallout 3 and people haven't played the former games then they turn their attention to NMA and comments on their reactions, because they can't make any themselves.

But still, people should be allowed to speak about NMA if they choose. The talk at the mayor gaming websites is complete bullshit anyway.

EDIT. But well, NMA have really positioned themselves in the current situation by constantly being very negative towards the Fallout 3 project and the conservatism at NMA is very easy to dislike.
But I actually expected NMA to gain more support in their crusade against Bethesda/Fallout 3, but it looks like many have turned against NMA instead.

But I suppose people wanted to end this discussion.

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Last edited by Asbjoern; June 19th, 2007 at 13:34.
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June 19th, 2007, 14:29
I'm happy for the thread to go as long as it likes and I'm not trying to close it down. And I don't mind NMA being discussed one little bit but often you can't really call it "discussion".

For example, I enjoy reading Qt3 regularly but I can't comment on Fallout without being lumped in with the more fanatical NMA members (and honestly, I really am quite reaonable when I post there, even if I do have a "hardcore" viewpoint.

Have a look at this thread and look how many people are only interested in talking about NMA.

I also approve of this. I also want a special NMA only mode where there is no S.P.E.C.I.A.L., only first person view and the game can't be paused.
Lol. And, lo behold, there was furious gnashing of teeth and bereaved wailing at NMA….
This almost made me want to visit NMA to see what they hate about what's been announced. Fortunately I had an attack of sanity.
Damn, and I clicked this thread hoping to get the QT3 digest version of the NMA reaction.
Me too.

This thread does not deliver.
There appears to be a thread on NMA about it, but it's been "Moved:" to somewhere that apparently only registered members can access. Odd.
They're having a members-only conference about how they can spin this information so that Bethsoft is still the Devil.
$5 says they attempt to take credit for getting Bethesda to make the game more like the original.
…and that's just from page 2 of the 8 pages. It's gets old rather quickly.

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June 19th, 2007, 16:08
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
I'm happy for the thread to go as long as it likes and I'm not trying to close it down. And I don't mind NMA being discussed one little bit but often you can't really call it "discussion".

For example, I enjoy reading Qt3 regularly but I can't comment on Fallout without being lumped in with the more fanatical NMA members (and honestly, I really am quite reaonable when I post there, even if I do have a "hardcore" viewpoint.

Have a look at this thread and look how many people are only interested in talking about NMA.

…and that's just from page 2 of the 8 pages. It's gets old rather quickly.
Yeah, you're right. I took a look over at the websites that Brother None suggested/commented, and the threads there are filled with negative NMA commentaries. NMA have really made a name for themselves (for better or worse).

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June 19th, 2007, 18:35
Originally Posted by Asbjoern View Post
But well, NMA have really positioned themselves in the current situation by constantly being very negative towards the Fallout 3 project and the conservatism at NMA is very easy to dislike.
What what what? In the years leading up to this trailer, not only were all out newsposts neutral, but we actively enforced a policy of "don't bash Bethesda, we don't know anything yet." VDweller is still enormously angry at us for that (see the opening of his article), and Rosh left in a huff because of that, and now we told we were "never giving them a chance". Oh, c'mon!

Originally Posted by Asbjoern View Post
But I actually expected NMA to gain more support in their crusade against Bethesda/Fallout 3, but it looks like many have turned against NMA instead.
And yet many agree with us too. Believe me, we don't like our reputation much either, on NMA, but we don't mind if people bash us as long as they can see we have a point somewhere, and many do.

Maybe our reputation will change over the years, maybe not, there's a lot of people (like BillSeurer here, no offense) who got maltreated or banned on NMA and seem to have made it their life's goal to spread the word that we're evil. Sucks, but it's the way it is.

(sorry for the continued hijacking of the thread, Dhruin)
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June 19th, 2007, 19:27
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
we actively enforced a policy of "don't bash Bethesda, we don't know anything yet."
What exactly is your definiton of "active enforcement"? It can't be post deletion or I wouldn't have found all of this after just a quick search (not bashing Bethesda, huh? Hahaha… good one ).

From your friendly neighborhood "We are not bashing Bethesda" crowd at NMA
As it happens Bethesda developing F3 is a kick in the balls for Fallout fans
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33736

Don't get me wrong, I love being an asshole, but do we really want asshole bethesda, the creators of asshole oblivion to make asshole fallout?
In my humble opinion, their asshole kat people, asshole orcs a and asshole human designs and animations are so flawed, disjunctional and ugly that they come nowhere near the graphics and sense of style that was fallout.
And don't get me started on asshole oblivion gameplay.
I mean, hasn't the fallout franchise been raped enough by F:BOS (and FOT)? does it have to be assraped now as well?
Yes, I believe Bethesda will completely wind up raping Fallout.
Yes, for the 197654th time yes Bethesda will rape Fallout for the fans
You know what folks? I have just about had it with diplomacy and patiently explaining to everyone why Bethesda is the last developer who should work on Fallout3… Fuck Bethesda! Fuck their one-choice-per-dialogue system. Fuck their fancy graphics that are not compensating one bit the crappy, shallow and lacking imagination gameplay… Fuck interplay for delivering us into the hands of complete amateurs and FUCK the commercialism that has plagued the game industry for so long, allowing nothing but softcore, hack'n'slash TRASH to come out of the developers' labs.
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33626

Why are we the Fallout community taking this crap? Especially from Bethesda.
We all know where Bethesda is
taking this game, yet no one is yelling at them, we're constantly
in-fighting which each other wasting time, which they continue to
rape this license.
Bethesda making F3 possibly for 360 is like your best friend banging your mom, Not to mention giving your sister a dirty sanchez!
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34434

Bethesda currently employs game designers who are so utterly inept that they make Capstone (RIP, thankfully) seem outright competent in comparison.
Bethesda is a studio showing great abilities in the brand of screwing up games.
And that's why myself and others are collecting up Todd and Pete's lies, so we can publicly call them out on them when the public sees these details as well. We will do so extensively and brutally, and as publicly as we can. I even have a news post made partially ready, "Todd Howard and Pete Hines are liars." as one possible headline.
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/vie…er=asc&start=0

How does it have some relevance to this, when the same guy [Pete Hines] you're phrasing has verbally buttfucked the respect some of us had for Bethesda.
They should replace Hines, if he's been making that shit up on his own
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8008

Pete The Goat Fucker Hines wrote:
Fallout 3 is our baby…
… Of all the dumbass rehashed crap he [Pete Hines] has said, that line pissed me off the most.
STFU BETHESDA!
Fallout 3 isn't your fucking "baby," it is the child the courts had removed from his father, and handed your rich ass, because the father couldn't afford to feed him anymore.
Seriously, Pete, this drivel doesn't work, as we were hoping you might be bright enough to understand this moronic PR-speek doesn't work with us, when you feebly loafed at your job when you happy assclowns got the license initially, and now you make statements that could top Chuck's?
Simply unbelievable. Bethesda has indeed grown over the years, and one of the things that has grown the most spectacularly is the heaping piles of shit they shovel onto their "fans", regardless of TES, Fallout, or any of their other shitty licensed works.
THEN Bethesda are gonna enter production of fallout 3!
Damn them all to hell! Raaarggahhar!!
By gamers for gamers" (By dicks for profit)
considering Bethesda's previous titles (which make excellent coasters or frisbees imo), it's pretty easy to make assumptions. Unless they're doing a complete 180 from what they've done before, it's safe to say that they'll come out with a big steaming pile that simply has the name Fallout on the box.
Pete is the spokesman for the developers at Bethesda, and he's clueless, and is JUST NOW trying to develop a clue. Given what has been said about Fallout by other Bethesda developers, this could be taken as indicative of the whole team, especially when the Head Nimrod In Charge of the project, Todd Howard, also says some spectacularly stupid things.
"How they developed Oblivion" and the rest of the crap Pete said is indeed the point of the discussion, not that he said "it will be just like Oblivion, but with guns", but that is where indications lead with his choice of words. He is discussing the treatment of theirs towards the IP, and the treatment towards their own IP has been questionable since they skullfucked TES into Morrowind for console trash
If Bethesda decides to take the same negligent approach towards game design while skullfucking the design for trendy reasons and laziness, then that is similarly their problem and I see no reason why we should happily take it. AGAIN, for the third load of bullshit PR-speek.
Bethesda PR, and some developers, dump a fresh shovelful of steaming bullshit right onto your head. What do you do?
1. Sit there with your best shit-eating grin and nicely give them suggestions on how to not dump shit on your head.
2. Sit there and take it like a cheap whore.
3. Grab the shovel from their hands, beat them over the head with it, and then feed them back their own bullshit.
History says that the Fallout fanbase are not too fond of being fed bullshit, so I know which one most people picked. It was particularly obvious from the initial reaction to much of the bullshit they shoveled in the past.
odd Howard will come out and say "Oh sorry fallout fans,i skullfucked your game and i lied to you,I should have been honest from the first moment"
Seriously,we're fucked.There's nothing we can do.I personally consider fallout 3,y'know,dead meat.
That might happen, when Bethesda decides to "refine" Fallout down again for Sellout 4, which would be apropos if they whored out with Fallout 3, as it would be the fourth sell-out in the franchise.
Bethesda + Raph [Koster] + MMOG = The Triforce of Crap
Summary: This had better not be true. If it is, Bethesda deserves everything (and everyone) hurled their way.
…Bethesda to just do what they want with the license, though, especially if they butt-rape it into Oblivious form. It'd make them happy.
I originally had no intention of buying Oblivi-yawn, yet after seeing those clips I seem to have an irresistable urge to play the game for the sole purpose of fucking with the (as someone else put it) "Radiant Asshole Intelligence".
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17697

Maybe then Todd and his clueless buddies will get it out of their empty heads to develop a Fallout 4.
Anyway, I'd rather Bethesda made their own damn sci-fi console game instead of fucking with someone else's ideas.
I think lying is instinctive for Pete.
If (due to divine intervention because anything lesser might not be sufficient) it [Fallout 3] turns out to be something more than a steaming pile of brahmin excrements I'll buy without having second thoughts.
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34366

@ Todd Howard: OK fucktard speak like a normal motherfucker! Shit this annoys me. It was so dificlut to read though, as he always hesitated and avoided questions.
Dickhead!
You clearly don't know Todd that well. The dork is nervous, and when he's nervous he pathetically tries to appear humble. What's not clear is whether the nervousness roots from the interview, the masked Fallout die-hards who burned a an effigy of the quest compass outside his place last night, or his insecurities over the meaning behind the Cleveland steamer Vlatko plopped on him after last week's company party. It smelled like Wendy's chicken nuggets.
Or, y'know, some strange combination of the three.
I agree that "fucktard" was exagerated but you gotta admit that he sounded like a…stuttering fucktard….uh.
Oh, really? As if Todd and Pete don't already do this without their speech/mental impediments…
That code was NEVER Bethesda's, and since Todd came on board, Bethesda's code has been "For Profit By The Lowest Common Denominator, By Todd Howard".
About the only passable thing they've internally developed was the TES series, which is going downhill every time Todd and Pete wipes their ass with it to rape for more money.
Well, that excludes MSFD, HayT, Pete, Todd, and a few other Bethesda employees. At this point, I'm fairly certain Scruffy the Janitor has more of a clue, and can actually form a coherent sentence. Pete and Todd are both supposedly involved with game development, and can't speak about it worth shit? What fucking use is a Lead that sounds like Meathead Mutt in interviews?
Or how about we ask for it now instead of the bullshit Todd and Pete have kept spewing since…oh, two years ago? It should be due, considering the rest of the shit Todd and Pete have said over two years
…circa the last time Pete had his mouth open to make funny noises.
Todd's clueless: Fallout 3 = fucked.
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June 19th, 2007, 19:42
I'm sorry to do this to you, Moriendor, but I specifically said "In the years leading up to this trailer."

The policy of actively enforcing people to shut up (by vatting posts, we never delete posts, it's policy) was dropped somewhere between the publication of glittering gems and the release of the Fallout 3 teaser, as it became obvious to us we were doing Bethesda all kinds of favours while they weren't doing anything for us.
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June 19th, 2007, 19:51
I more or less feel inclined to make a reply to your post. You disected it so thoroughly so this time I'll satisfy my argumentative urges, though I've restrained myself the last couple of days, when you've posted.

Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
Uh, yeah, we're a Fallout fansite, we talk about Fallout. As far as I know there's no NMA fansite, and as such I have to agree with Dhruin in being puzzled why people think NMA is more important to talk about than Fallout. Especially on places like Something Awful and Penny Arcade.
You asked for it. Now you have your very own fan blog. I know, it's quite lame.

If people want us to do that, they should join NMA and talk to us. Talking about us a lot won't change anything in a hurry.
With the experiences I have from your board, I don't think anybody would get anything fruitful out of that.

A number? Oh…eh…I guess 1 is a number too, yeah.
Is it really necessary to be so condescending? But ok, for your pleasure. Glittering Gems of Hatred, part I-III. abbaon added the link, but I suppose you don't need it, because you were one of the writers of "gems of hatred". Perhaps you count it as one article, but because it was released over a period of time in 3 parts, then it in my mind counts as three.

But have you given it the thought that it isn't about what NMA has done or hasn't, but NMA has become over time a metaphor of "hardcore" Fallout fans, so when people talk so much about NMA, might be because they see you as a stereotype of the common Fallout maniac (sorry to use that word). So when other "hardcore" fans - not necessarily associated with NMA - writes articles for example someone (I can't remember who. It was a blog where the photo of the writer was on the frontpage) wrote an article (as you also did) about Fallout fans and their importance then this is also channeled to NMA.
You see the "hardcore" Fallout fans as a general whole and NMA becomes the centre of it.

What what what? In the years leading up to this trailer, not only were all out newsposts neutral, but we actively enforced a policy of "don't bash Bethesda, we don't know anything yet." VDweller is still enormously angry at us for that (see the opening of his article), and Rosh left in a huff because of that, and now we told we were "never giving them a chance". Oh, c'mon!
ah, not all newsposts were neutral, but yes, you have actually made a good work with being objective in your news posts, which is appreciable.
But that is just your official face. Your unofficial viewpoints are still that Bethesda's Fallout 3 is going to be a pile of rubbish. The moderation and general consensus of your board gives this impression, and boards are just as much as news coverage what defines a website.
NMA have a legacy. And I see you've deleted the "dumb posts" forum, which is good, but also the least you could do.

And yet many agree with us too. Believe me, we don't like our reputation much either, on NMA, but we don't mind if people bash us as long as they can see we have a point somewhere, and many do.
It isn't about if one can see the point or not, but the template of how that point is forwarded is just as important.
I don't for example visit RPGCodex because their template is filled with prejudice and subjectiveness. It isn't to treat others (developers) with respect in my view.
Even though I agree with many of their points that still doesn't make me want to visit their website (which they're probably glad).

Maybe our reputation will change over the years, maybe not, there's a lot of people (like BillSeurer here, no offense) who got maltreated or banned on NMA and seem to have made it their life's goal to spread the word that we're evil. Sucks, but it's the way it is.
Don't make BillSeurer look like the one that is wrong. The forums of NMA are full of elitism and arrogancy. But if you're trying to change that, of course you should have a chance to escape that legacy, but you can't possibly think this happens over night.

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Last edited by Asbjoern; June 19th, 2007 at 20:00.
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June 19th, 2007, 19:55
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
I'm sorry to do this to you, Moriendor, but I specifically said "In the years leading up to this trailer."

The policy of actively enforcing people to shut up (by vatting posts, we never delete posts, it's policy) was dropped somewhere between the publication of glittering gems and the release of the Fallout 3 teaser, as it became obvious to us we were doing Bethesda all kinds of favours while they weren't doing anything for us.
These quotes are all from a few months ago when we had that little argument where you and the Biofreak disputed that Bethesda developers were ever getting personally attacked at NMA. To counter your point, I collected these quotes and links back then, not today. It was the "ace up my sleeve" so to speak . I'm quite sure that a lot of these posts (possibly not each and every single one of them but like 95% at least) are from pre-glittering gems since glittering gems was when we had our little "clash" (or are you not Kharn?). Just check the dates.
With all due respect, I don't really care how you run your site, but what you said up there makes me want to suggest another name change to "Brother of Lies" or at the very least "Brother of Spin" .
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June 19th, 2007, 20:08
Originally Posted by Asbjoern View Post
You asked for it. Now you have your very own fan blog. I know, it's quite lame.
I love it!

Originally Posted by Asbjoern View Post
With the experiences I have from your board, I don't think anybody would get anything fruitful out of that.
Perhaps, perhaps not, there are a number of people over there now defending Bethesda. Except for the obvious trolls, they're still there. Note that there were also some obvious anti-Bethesda trolls we banned.

Originally Posted by Asbjoern View Post
Is it really necessary to be so condescending? But ok, for your pleasure. Glittering Gems of Hatred, part I-III. abbaon added the link, but I suppose you don't need it, because you were one of the writers of "gems of hatred". Perhaps you count it as one article, but because it was released over a period of time in 3 parts, then it in my mind counts as three.
One of? I was the writer, baby! Go me.

That said, it wasn't really intended as a "look how important we are"-article, but more of a "come and understand our point of view." I'm guessing it failed, there?

Originally Posted by Asbjoern View Post
But that is just your official face. Your unofficial viewpoints are still that Bethesda's Fallout 3 is going to be a pile of rubbish. The moderation and general consensus of your board gives this impression, and boards are just as much as news coverage what defines a website.
Not really, the first service we provide is news, the second is mods, the third is info, the fourth is a forum. Nobody is forced to go onto our forum to read our news. As for "our unofficial viewpoints," NMA doesn't have unofficial viewpoints. Its staff does, sure, but it's not exactly rule-enforced (though I'll admit there are some old leftover rules like "no discussion of Fallout online".

Originally Posted by Asbjoern View Post
Don't make BillSeurer look like the one that is wrong. The forums of NMA are full of elitism and arrogancy. But if you're trying to change that, of course you should have a chance to escape that legacy, but you can't possibly think this happens over night.
Ok, I won't expect our reputation to change overnight if you don't expect us to somehow reform the entire community overnight.

Originally Posted by Moriendor View Post
These quotes are all from a few months ago when we had that little argument where you and the Biofreak disputed that Bethesda developers were ever getting personally attacked at NMA. To counter your point, I collected these quotes and links back then, not today. It was the "ace up my sleeve" so to speak . I'm quite sure that a lot of these posts (possibly not each and every single one of them but like 95% at least) are from pre-glittering gems since glittering gems was when we had our little "clash" (or are you not Kharn?).
Yes. Like I said, our official policy of discouraging or outright vatting speculative posts was dropped somewhere between glittering gems and the Fallout teaser, but apparently my memory has got it wrong (sorry about that). I couldn't tell you exactly where because I don't think there was ever any point we officially said "let's stop doing it", we just stopped, by vague consensus. But it figures that Rosh leaving in a huff was our encouragement both to write glittering gems and to drop the "no speculative posts"-rule, my chronology is just wrong.

I don't know if you have an account on NMA, if you do, you can for example view this thread. A very innocent thread speculating on Fallout 3 based on Oblivion. Still vatted for being speculative (not Rosh's lovely reply after it was vatted).

Now that I'm posting anyway, the Escapist wrote about us in their recent article.
Last edited by Brother None; June 19th, 2007 at 20:17.
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June 19th, 2007, 20:39
I appreciate your honesty. And from what you tell, it sounds like NMA has matured to the task before it.
You certainly won't be by default one of my "blacklisted" websites any longer. But time will tell.
But the change from niche fansite to the fansite is also necessary, if your criticism are to be taken serious but also if you're not to be ignored in the competition with newer fansites, when Bethesda rolls out their Fallout 3 to glowing reviews.

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June 20th, 2007, 00:16
Originally Posted by Asbjoern View Post
I appreciate your honesty.
Same here… even if it took a bit of convincing .
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