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Default Bioshock - System Specs Released

July 11th, 2007, 18:45
swat 4 was a shooter too but you could play the entire game without killing anyone. to me that game had far more choice/depth/tactics than many sameolesame rpgs. but even system shock 2 could barely be called an rpg. the choices in the beginning added to gameplay more than stat style rpg which based on quest achievement ala bloodlines rather than monster slaying. to me any game that offers that kind of advancement is the superior. i imagine bioshock will offer something similar even if there is no true stats but instead a development based off of the ecology of the world. no one can say how it will work 'til we play it but boo to those that cringe at innovation.
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July 11th, 2007, 18:55
this is the early stages of pre-release

it takes at least 2 years before we start saying they should make more games like this.

To say something good about an RPG it takes someone from another genre, but not a professional gamer reviewer.

I need to make a chart on this but here's a few examples:

BG - at release: sucked (to reviewers for not being 3d). 2 years later: best game ever made
NWN - at release: sucked, not enough like BG and what's this toolset thing I'll never use? 4 years later: wish NWN2 was more like it
ToEE - at release: game breaking bugs and doesn't stick to the real rules. now: too bad Troika went out of business, they made some great games.
Pool of Radiance - at release: ate 7 people's computers. 2 months later: reviewers en mass suddenly decide to have another look at the game and in retrospect say it was pretty addictive once it got going.

You're right, we need more sweeping generalizations. There's not enough of that anymore.

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July 11th, 2007, 19:16
Originally Posted by Lucky Day View Post
Pool of Radiance - at release: ate 7 people's computers.
By the way … : Has anyone ever sued them for this horrible bug ?
There was definitively something damaged through this.
I'm just curious …
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July 11th, 2007, 19:36
'Net connection for activation? What's wrong with CD keys?
It's not that big a deal for me, but it still mildly annoys and confuses. More crap for the honest consumer to wade through, while the pirates willl doubtless just crack and play.
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July 11th, 2007, 20:03
Standard practice for all games that include shooter elements: play up the shooter elements (since everyone understands them, and they show of them thar fancy particles), and downplay/ignore everything else.

Making a stealth game? Show off how you can sneak up behind an NPC, slit their throat, and toss their body over the railing to demonstrate the physics. Ignore the patience elements: hiding in shadows for 15 minutes listening to guard patrol patterns.

Making an RPG? Show off the combat, the monsters, fireballs, spell-casting animations, etc. Ignore the character interaction and all those hard-to-read words
in the dialogs.

Making a mindless shooter? Show off killing things, blowing stuff up, and explosive headshots. Ignore… Well, there often isn't anything else to ignore.

Previews of games all too often focus on the killing and explosions that you find in virtually every game. Those are easy to show, and make for great "demo movies" (pardon me if I think the word "demo" should only be applied to an EXE I can download and play for myself).

Then they ignore or downplay all of the distinctive elements that don't show well, require patience, or require a lengthy background explaination for you to understand what's going on. But these are the elements that I consider most important in making a judgement whether a game is a "must buy" when it's first released, or whether I ignore it and reconsider after the fact if it turns out to be worthwhile after all (re: Stalker dot dot dot).

And it's the parts they ignore that are most telling. If they don't show something, we can't know if it's even in the game, whether it's stripped-down or "streamlined", or whether it's normal fare for the genre. Although if it is something the devs consider impressive, it will be shown. Absense isn't necessarily a bad sign, but it is seldom a good sign.

All of the preview material I've seen on Bioshock has focused on blowing things up, killing stuff, and how plasmids can be used to explode and/or kill stuff. We're told there is a story. We're told you get to make meaningful decisions. We're told — often on the side through message boards — lots of side details.

But we don't get to see them. That's the part that is making me cranky. About this game and all the others coming down the pipe. I don't care about killing and explosions. That's a given. It's a tiresome cliche, so far as I'm concerned. But I understand that's what sells the most games.

I want to see more of the other things. The details that are going to distinguish this game from any other flashy, unsatisfying shooter. But they're not showing any of that (and if they have, I missed it, someone please post a link). We're told that this is a game that will appeal to fans of Thief and SS, but I haven't seen anything to convince me this will be more than a generic, performance-hungry shooter.

Meanwhile, Ken keeps chanting, "It's an FPS! It's an FPS!"

I loved Thief. And Deus Ex. And Bloodlines. But not SS2. Sorry, but it tried too hard to be an FPS.

Mr. Levine, please, show me something that will convince me this is a game I will enjoy. Show me, don't tell me.

Hammer, anvil, forge and fire,
chase away the hoofed liar.
Roof and doorway, block and beam,
chase the Trickster from our dream.
Last edited by Stanza; July 11th, 2007 at 20:13.
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July 11th, 2007, 20:22
Originally Posted by Stanza View Post
Mr. Levine, please, show me something that will convince me this is a game I will enjoy. Show me, don't tell me.
Huh? Why are you begging for Levine to lie to you?
It seems to me like the problem is you and your expectations and not Levine or Bioshock. I think that Levine has made it very clear through his narrated videos that this game is not an RPG and not very story-driven either. In fact, he said that they will be finishing the gameplay and the levels first and that the story will be slapped on last minute. This is probably also the reason why they haven't shown any story so far. It probably just doesn't even exist yet (except for a vague general concept).
And as far as the "meaningful" choices are concerned, I think he has also made it pretty clear that it's basically hmmm… do I hack the security gun so it turns on my enemies or do I use one of my plasmids or a trap?

Why should Levine pretend that Bioshock is a story-driven, dialogue-heavy RPG when in reality it's just what he advertises it as being, i.e. an FPS with a great deal of freedom?
I don't mean to be harsh but maybe you need to realize that Levine is not making the game you are looking for and maybe you should just move on instead of begging for someone to give you a reason to buy a game that is simply never ever going to be what you want it to be?
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July 11th, 2007, 21:02
Have they mentioned if there's going to be a demo?
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July 11th, 2007, 21:06
My rant is to all games in general. I know that this particular game, Bioshock, is not a stat-driven RPG. It's certainly not going to turn into one on my account. Dialog trees? Very unlikely.

I am, however, hoping that there is more to the game than just killing mutants. That decisions amount to more than "do I kill this guy with a gun or a plasmid?"

Given Irrational's reputation, I assume that there is more to this game than shooting/shocking mutants. Ken has said things to the effect that "this is an FPS 2.0", something that goes beyond just being a regular old FPS. But I still don't know what that is. Hype?

Every time I check up Bioshock, I get the impression I should expect something more than a standard shooter. But I never grok what that is. Is it simply that you have plasmids and can apparently set traps and hack turrets? I don't consider that to be new. It sounds like Deus Ex and SS with a new mythology to explain your augs/upgrades.

If it's going in the direction of DX or SS, I'd expect some opportunity to interact with characters in a meaningful way, have the ability (or at least the illusion of) being able to influence the story. Having puzzles. Something more. What is it?

I want to explain it, but I can't find the words to make it coherent. Best idea is to approach Bioshock as if it were just another FPS, ignore the hype, don't expect anything more.

The hype leaves me confused, expecting more, and not knowing what that is supposed to be. I hate hype.

If this were "just another shooter", I'd ignore the hype. After release, if good things are being said about it, I'd pick up a copy. And quite possibly enjoy it.

However. Bioshock is being talked about across various RPG boards, expectations are high. It's difficult to be pleasantly surprised when you're expecting great things from the get-go.

And at this point, I'm rambling, even more incoherent than usual, and in need of a fresh dose of caffeine. Toodles.

Hammer, anvil, forge and fire,
chase away the hoofed liar.
Roof and doorway, block and beam,
chase the Trickster from our dream.
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July 11th, 2007, 21:09
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Have they mentioned if there's going to be a demo?
Official word is no playable game demo. A gaming rag is claiming to be shipping this week with a "demo", but the 2K people say otherwise.

Hammer, anvil, forge and fire,
chase away the hoofed liar.
Roof and doorway, block and beam,
chase the Trickster from our dream.
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July 11th, 2007, 22:21
Originally Posted by Stanza View Post
And at this point, I'm rambling, even more incoherent than usual, and in need of a fresh dose of caffeine. Toodles.
No, it was definitely much more coherent than that other post where you were begging to be lied to . I get what you mean now but no one can really answer all of these questions, of course, until we have played the game. However, I have a very strong feeling that your "Deus Ex/SS2 in a different setting" speculation is pretty close to the truth (maybe minus the strong narrative parts of Deus Ex). Personally, I'm not expecting much story-wise. It looks like they have gone the id (Doom, Quake) route with this one which is: Make the game first, think up a story later. This game has been hyped so much… if the story would be a strong selling point then I'm sure that Levine & co would have shown us more of it. They haven't though. They have only shown us gameplay and combat so -realistically- I'd expect this game to be pretty much all about creative ways of killing stuff and about having fun exploring the levels.
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July 11th, 2007, 23:07
Yes, that very nice - and sort of refreshing to hear a developer saying that his game is an FPS, not a RPG. But is does involve a very ground-breaking ethical and moral choice regarding the Little Sisters, I think. However that Ken Levine says his game is an FPS game, not a RPG game is NOT the problem.

The problem, as I see it, is that Bioware and Bethsoft both are trying to pass off Mass Effect and Fallout 3 for shooters while they really are fully fledged rpgs. I hope this is just business tactics to get the shooter audience excited enough to buy Mass Effect and Fallout 3 as both Bioware and Betsoft know that the fans will buy the games anyway…
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July 11th, 2007, 23:11
Originally Posted by Lucky Day View Post
this is the early stages of pre-release

it takes at least 2 years before we start saying they should make more games like this.

To say something good about an RPG it takes someone from another genre, but not a professional gamer reviewer.

I need to make a chart on this but here's a few examples:

BG - at release: sucked (to reviewers for not being 3d). 2 years later: best game ever made
Bad reviews for baldur's gate? I remember nothing such. I guess it depends on one's reviewers. My local games mag (pelit) gave it 91 which is far from bad:

Adrenaline Vault, The (AVault) 23.01.1999 5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars 100
UHS (Universal Hint System) 22.06.2000 5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars 100
games xtreme 12.03.1999 9.5 out of 10 95
IGN 18.01.1999 9.4 out of 10 94
Pelit Jan, 1999 91 out of 100 91
GameBoomers 2004 91 out of 100 91
Svenska PC Gamer Jan, 1999 90 out of 100 90
GameSurge Aug, 1999 85 out of 100 85
PC Player (Germany) Jan, 1999 85 out of 100 85
FiringSquad 16.01.1999 80 out of 100 80

I think you need to choose better reviewers.
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July 11th, 2007, 23:27
i think people are taking the "coming up with the story part last" far too out of context. in a linear game, and non 'living' gameworld yes that would be a sign of a weak game. in this case though levine and co. had ideas about certain aspects of the game and ecology and let those 'naturally' interact with each other creatively along with creating the physical environment that also is part of the ecology. in other games a writer can write a story and certain levels are created to add visuals to the story basically. my approaching development from a functional approach i think it allows for a much more natural story to devlop when the characters and environment aren't forced to follow a predetermined story.

there are thousands uopn thousands of great stories written througout time but how many, believable game worlds have actually been created.

are planned suburbs that fit singular visions better than old towns or historic citys/villages that are more heterogenousily built around certain functional districts. everyone likes what they like.

while i don't think the story of bioshock will be epic, system shock 2 wasn't, it will be believable and intense. is everyone forgetting how most of the story was told through logs? without those logs system shock 2 would not have had an engrossing story. i expect nothing less from irrational this time, since many other developers have pulled off weaker versions themselves.

bioshock seems to offer what all good games should. the choice to have fun playing around, and the choice to go deeper, observing and interacting with the world, not just collecting a new trinket or weapon.
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July 12th, 2007, 02:01
All I know is that with this game, my one year old, cutting edge graphics card just became minimum spec.

Not that it's on my personal list, but it's not an encouraging sign.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
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July 12th, 2007, 10:12
Person above: I guess your video card wasen't a cutting edge card at the time then since the card I got almost 2 years ago is in the recommended specs.

You can upgrade a computer toget recommended specs for $500 and it isn't hard to build your own computer.
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July 12th, 2007, 15:16
Those minimum specs are extremely cheap to comply with. These minimum specs are no worse than what the PC has had for the past 10 years. It's basically a high end PC from 3 years ago and the recommended specs are a high end PC for today. If you own a PC with a PCI-E slot, then you can meet the minimum specs cheaper than you can buy an XBox 360.
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July 12th, 2007, 19:00
Originally Posted by guenthar View Post
Person above: I guess your video card wasen't a cutting edge card at the time then since the card I got almost 2 years ago is in the recommended specs.

You can upgrade a computer toget recommended specs for $500 and it isn't hard to build your own computer.
Perhaps not cutting edge, but the best I could find —nvidia's most current release in June of 06-(nvidia 7900gtx, 512 mb ram)

I think the difficulty of building a computer is relative. I wouldn't attempt it though I do try to do research on the components and get my input to those that do it for a living.

And I certainly don't intend to spend $500. to upgrade a one year old machine, thanks anyway. But I'm not complaining—I know I'll have to upgrade at some point and when I have to I will—this last machine has a second slot for SLI, etc and plenty of room for memory upgrades. It's just too soon for my budget.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
Last edited by magerette; July 13th, 2007 at 22:15. Reason: corrected specs
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July 13th, 2007, 03:55
Originally Posted by zakhal View Post
Bad reviews for baldur's gate? I remember nothing such. I guess it depends on one's reviewers. My local games mag (pelit) gave it 91 which is far from bad:

Adrenaline Vault, The (AVault) 23.01.1999 5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars 100
UHS (Universal Hint System) 22.06.2000 5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars 100
games xtreme 12.03.1999 9.5 out of 10 95
IGN 18.01.1999 9.4 out of 10 94
Pelit Jan, 1999 91 out of 100 91
GameBoomers 2004 91 out of 100 91
Svenska PC Gamer Jan, 1999 90 out of 100 90
GameSurge Aug, 1999 85 out of 100 85
PC Player (Germany) Jan, 1999 85 out of 100 85
FiringSquad 16.01.1999 80 out of 100 80

I think you need to choose better reviewers.
Good research Zakh

Sorry about that, I was making sweeping generalizations about the BG2 reviews not sweeping generalizations about BG. I left out the "2" for brevity's sake.

I recall the reviews for BG were quite good although I had a lot of trouble with it being too complicated and the movement rate too slow at the time.
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July 13th, 2007, 04:18
Originally Posted by Lucky Day View Post
Sorry about that, I was making sweeping generalizations about the BG2 reviews not sweeping generalizations about BG. I left out the "2" for brevity's sake.
BG2 got nearly across-the-board 90%+ ratings.

You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.
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