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Default Fallout 3 - Preview @ Gameplayer

October 17th, 2007, 12:35
Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. I've long abandoned such uselessness, maybe not soon after I saw Fellowship of the Ring. I started to see it as a separate product from the books. Sure you have hopes and dreams for the transition to the silver screen, but it's a different medium and you can't control the outcome. People should stop trying to control every outcome.
It's not about the illusion of control, it's about the freedom of speech. When something is not like one feels it should be, then I consider it very natural to speak out against it. Even for something as relatively insignificant as a computer game.

You're speaking about the changes to the LOTR movies as if every single one of them was a necessity for adaption to the big screen. I find that suggestion extremely flawed, because I personally see a ton of changes that did not have to be there and did not - to my mind - enhance the experience of cinema.

For the record, I like the movies very much and consider them works of art.

I'm not sure I see any logical reasoning in not voicing concerns when things are registered to invoke them. That would be counterproductive to the truth, and it could be considered irresponsible.

I was pissed when Metallica started to abandon their roots and make crap music. Now, who cares? They drove their own creativity in the ground. Wait, now I sound bitter, don't I? Point is, I see what you mean, but in the end, it doesn't really matter. You shouldn't pin your identity down on the product of someone else.
Why do you assume it has to do with identity? I like something, I see it lessened, and I speak out about it. Is that the same as using it as my identity? That is a very strange viewpoint if you ask me.

Then again, I never had an idol except perhaps my brother when I was a young boy, and I retain a great measure of respect for my parents, but I certainly didn't do what they did, nor do they necessarily inspire my opinions about everything. Point being, maybe you identified with Metallica and maybe you shouldn't have done that. I suspect it has very little to do with the way most hardcore fans are responding to Fallout 3.

In any case, what you saw happen to Metallica is not entirely dissimilar to what has been happening to the gaming industry as a whole. Judging from how you sound, I find it hard to believe that you're really as totally indifferent about it as you claim. Maybe it's because you don't care about games like you used to care about Metallica, but remember that we don't all idolize the people responsible for products we like.

The Fallout series has a lineage that a lot of people want to see respected, but that doesn't mean it has to. At least not in the way they perceive it. Bethesda may have a vision of their own, as Fallout fans of their own, that doesn't jibe with those old-school hardcore fans. They should just accept it instead of cursing the devs to Hell.
I find it interesting that you're literally saying that they should just accept it. You're not even offering your own perspective as a possible alternative, no you're actually telling people what they should do.

Naturally, you have as little influence in the matter of what people will do as the rest of us, so it doesn't bother me. I just happen to wonder how one can come to feel justified in telling others what they should do, based on his own individual perception of life.

Live life for yourself. Bethesda's vision of it will be Bethesda's vision and they will probably be extremely proud of their work once it's finished. If they'd have made it for some other audience, not very much so. In turn, those fans have the freedom to hate the result, but be true to yourself and don't just hate it because it deviates from the original formula.
Why must it be about hate?

I'm not sure I get that perception, but maybe it's because I don't put all hardcore fans into one basket.

In any case, I doubt you will find many people being more true to themselves than I, but I suppose it's possible.

My way of being true to myself includes speaking my mind about things that I care about. I can't be sure that I will dislike Fallout 3, but I do feel very certain that it will not remain true to the originals to the extent most hardcore fans would prefer. If they dislike the game, then maybe it's not "just" because of the deviation, but the consequences to the gameplay and the overall experience of such deviations.
Last edited by DArtagnan; October 17th, 2007 at 13:15.
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October 17th, 2007, 13:15
Like for any topic that incites strong feeling, people tell other people that they shouldn't believe what they believe, like what they like, do what they do. That, too, is human nature. Both sides do it, actually, and both sides of course usually claim that only the other side is doing it. All in all one could be quite happy about how things are going, from an outside perspective: opinions are raised, opinions are heard, people have free choice to support the various sides. Of course there can be only one outcome, so many people have to be left dissapointed - but thats the nature of the game. But even so, the noise the fans have made may have repercussions down the road that may lead to good things. I doubt VD would have started his game, had he not found likeminded souls on the web, and maybe other people, other developers will look at these FO3 discussions and it may influence future ideas and designs. It is always good to speak out.
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October 17th, 2007, 13:34
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
I most definitely don't support some of the rhetoric and actions of some of the hardcore fans, but why should they accept it? Why not fight for their position?
Oh, just some advise from my end. In my experience, it's not healthy nor productive to have your identity bound to such material and worldly things. But everybody's free to make their own decision on this. I'm guessing that with time, people will learn for themselves. Things happen the way they happen; trying to control most things in your life just drains your energy.

Buddha out.
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October 17th, 2007, 13:39
Oh, just some advise from my end. In my experience, it's not healthy nor productive to have your identity bound to such material and worldly things. But everybody's free to make their own decision on this. I'm guessing that with time, people will learn for themselves. Things happen the way they happen; trying to control most things in your life just drains your energy.

Buddha out.
You don't even register the irony, do you?

Here you are, advising people on a message board about not trying to control things.

By your own measuring stick, you're officially caught whilst trying to control things in your life.

I think you and Buddha need a little talk.
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October 17th, 2007, 14:11
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
You're speaking about the changes to the LOTR movies as if every single one of them was a necessity for adaption to the big screen. I find that suggestion extremely flawed, because I personally see a ton of changes that did not have to be there and did not - to my mind - enhance the experience of cinema.
No— every change to the LOTR movie probably had a reason, and what that reason was came from the minds of those professionals who produced it, wrote it, directed it, and so on. Your opinion on these changes is rather insignificant in the face of what the end result turned out to be. You are very much entitled to your opinion, of course, but being loud and getting emotionally worked up about it is what I find not being productive nor helpful to one's own mental health.

Why do you assume it has to do with identity? I like something, I see it lessened, and I speak out about it. Is that the same as using it as my identity? That is a very strange viewpoint if you ask me.
I was not specifically speaking about you, but more about the sort of people that gets very trollish very soon about the subject, because he or she is extremely emotionally attached to it. That was what Dhruin's point was, as far as I understand it, and I agree. In such cases, part of one's identity is pinned to the product/piece of art/community/sub-culture and any perceived attack on the subject of one's devotion will be responded to defensively. The problems lie in what is seen as an attack and that responding defensively isn't the same as simply voicing one's opinion.

Point being, maybe you identified with Metallica and maybe you shouldn't have done that. I suspect it has very little to do with the way most hardcore fans are responding to Fallout 3.
Well yeah, I can relate, because I was (and still am) very attached to the whole metal scene to the extent that I thought it saved my life. I know many more people that (still) feel the same way. It gave me identity when none existed. At least, I thought so at the time. Now I see that's not a very healthy way of conducting your life. But I can clearly see how a game such as Fallout and its community might elicit the same kind of emotional response.

In any case, what you saw happen to Metallica is not entirely dissimilar to what has been happening to the gaming industry as a whole. Judging from how you sound, I find it hard to believe that you're really as totally indifferent about it as you claim. Maybe it's because you don't care about games like you used to care about Metallica, but remember that we don't all idolize the people responsible for products we like.
I guess I just care more about what *I* like now than the products that I like or the people that make the products that I like. If that doesn't make sense, I guess I can clarify that I feel more confident in the value of my taste and feel that it will be there for me to enjoy for a long while. Maybe all these powerful emotions are the result of a feeling that the things these people are passionate about are, in fact, dying.

In the music "industry," people will always be able to produce the music they care about. It may not always seem so these days, but I think most bands are started out of love for what they do. They might change over time and lose touch with their roots, even start to despise their own work, but small bands will be able to produce good results without the help of major record labels.

And so we come to the indie scene for RPG games. They generally do not have the same quality of the AAA-titles these days, but they are loved and respected by a niche group of fans. However, do we ever see a small studio capable of releasing a game the size and level of quality of the Fallout series? It'd be one hell of an achievement, for sure… and it's provide those rabid Fallout fans with something else to plough through instead of hoping to find Fallout 3 satiating their thirst for something with that same feel.

I'm rambling and I'm losing my point. I think my point is that you may be disappointed by how something you love turns out, you are allowed to have an opinion about it and even voice it, but in the end you just accept it and move on. The way some people stress themselves out over stuff like this cannot be healthy and I just think that their little fits don't have as much effect as they hope it has.

On the other hand, I've been proven wrong in that sometimes community outlash has influenced the course of development for a product.

I find it interesting that you're literally saying that they should just accept it. You're not even offering your own perspective as a possible alternative, no you're actually telling people what they should do.
Okay, well maybe not telling. As if I have any authority over what someone else may or may not say about it. Just voicing my opinion and offering my insight into what I think is best (just like everyone else).
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October 17th, 2007, 14:29
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
You don't even register the irony, do you?

Here you are, advising people on a message board about not trying to control things.

By your own measuring stick, you're officially caught whilst trying to control things in your life.
I never said I was perfect. But offering advise still is something different from lashing out. It may be self-reinforcement and a sign that I may have to follow my own advice, but that doesn't invalidate the advice.

I think you and Buddha need a little talk.
That could be fun. Bring in Nietzsche and we're flying.
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October 17th, 2007, 18:01
Originally Posted by Thaurin View Post
Live life for yourself. Bethesda's vision of it will be Bethesda's vision and they will probably be extremely proud of their work once it's finished. If they'd have made it for some other audience, not very much so. In turn, those fans have the freedom to hate the result, but be true to yourself and don't just hate it because it deviates from the original formula.
Wait, how would hating it because it deviates from the original formula not be being true to myself?

As for "wasting energy" on this. Heh. People waste energy on all sorts of fruitless endeavors on the internet. Somehow I don't feel I'm worst of on this side of the bargain than if I'm a dude on youtube discussing if Lazy Dork is better than lonelygirl, or whatever.

There's nothing wrong with the quixotic nature of this endeavor. It'd be a boring world if people only protested when they were ensured of success, no? Heck, sometimes protesting is good just for the sake of it, and who knows what this'll produce?
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