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Default NWN2 - 1 Up 'Review' Pulled & Recanted @ 1 Up

November 4th, 2006, 13:19
well, all the "reviewer" done in this "review is bragging how much he hate d&d. and for that sole reason he gave the game a 5. so why he reviewed the game in the first place if he hate d&d? it's not like obsidian hide the fact it's a d&d game.

btw, the game ROCKS! it's sooooo fun! and it's very well written, i wish there were more games like it.
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November 4th, 2006, 13:37
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
Well I guess I owe everyone an appoligy since I actually kinda of agree with him, not on everything as I couldn't give a score since I have only completed the first Town/Tutorial.

In the short I think he was saying, he doesn't like it when a Dev gives you a paint by numbers and linear game, then adds in a bunch of stats/rules and calls it a great RPG, NWN 2 maybe great but I sure didn't personally feel it at the start as I did with other great RPGs like Gothic and Bloodines.

Carry on.
Give it some time man - dont you think its a bit naive to judge a game based on the tutorial?? Come on there. I wouldnt be surprised if the reviewer guy didnt even make it to Neverwinter city before posting his review.

This is definately one of those kinds of games that ramps up in terms of all the good stuff.. its actually pretty linear and simplistic until you get to NW city. Its possible the devs wanted to get people used to the game and so on… but it is about 8 hours or so at least of this kind of "low-impact" gaming. After that it starts to get alot more interesting and many more lenghty side quests start popping up. Also, the amount of choices you have and subsequent events becomes alot more dependent on what you do as well.. it has alot of branching paths.

Stay with it dude - its definately worth it.
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November 4th, 2006, 17:31
HI

It seems to me that the reviewer of NWN2 at 1up's site was out to get the whole
D&D genre. The original, now retracted, review, seems to me to be just a rant about how he doesn't like stats & rulebased D&D games, not a review of the game.

A review has to be the reviewer's personal opinion about the game's interface, story, gameplay etc. and not a rant abot the dislike of an entire genre.

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November 4th, 2006, 18:15
If I had to decide, I would have left the review there and add some "we don't agree with it" type of statement. That way they would avoid "protect freedom of press" type of exclamations.
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November 4th, 2006, 19:29
Originally Posted by Danicek View Post
If I had to decide, I would have left the review there and add some "we don't agree with it" type of statement. That way they would avoid "protect freedom of press" type of exclamations.
I think that there has to be a difference between freedom of the press and gross incompetence; to my mind (after 40+ hour in the game now) the review was the latter and should never have been printed in the first place. The editor should have caught this before it ever went to publication, period.
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November 4th, 2006, 19:58
That is so lame. they should have kept that review. I mean it is stupid to put up a review and recant it. If that's he case the need to go back and re-review ALL gmaes that they have done.

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November 4th, 2006, 20:07
space captain your proabably right and I did mention I would give more of a try
I thnk a great RPG is unmistakable, now not being finished or buggy is certianly a problem but if its great you can feel it in its core, whether its Tutorial or mid game.
Examples of this are Gothic, Bloodlines and System Shock 2 there are more but you get the picture.

You guys are proabably right about this review not being of a quality for a published and never should have been considered, but honestly I feel let down by the game.
The reason I was willing to buy it without waiting for reviews is the Coop and the other reason is the same I bought Oblivion the Editor because those are worth supporting.

I hope the game gets better but honestly with games like Gothic around this is only good not great.

The camera will not lock, at least for me even after using settings offered in the NWN2 forum, the crappy camera AI either spins the long way around or just half turns.
Maybe its just a bug but it is extrememly annoying to constantly babysit this crap, it certinaly takes a certian amount of fun potintal out of the game.

Look I want to like it, I reallly do.
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November 4th, 2006, 21:40
It was a big editorial screw up - but frankly if it wasn't NWN it would never have been caught. Matt Peckham is better than that, and so is Jeff Green (the editor) - they screwed up and got nailed for it.

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November 4th, 2006, 21:51
Clearly you have a personal leaning towards single-character action/RPGs (based on your "great RPGs" examples), which is obviously a perfectly reasonable preference. Gothic is one of my favourite all time games but while it is very good at doing certain things (and you mention non sign-post NPCs in your previous post) it really doesn't do a good job at other things, such as deeper dialogue and more complex character development. NWN2 and Gothic set out to do different things and while I'd prefer NPCs not to stand around, I can't see that makes it a poorer RPG, especially if it makes up for it in other ways such as character-skill-driven dialogue choices.

Horses for courses but not only was that review poorly written, not only was it contradictory, not only did it hedge it's opinion with a disclaimer at the end, it assumed all roleplaying games should really be Microsoft Fantasy Simulator 2006. A lot of people would like that approach but plenty of people like a different emphasis.

I think this also demonstrates the foolishness of arguing about scoring systems out of context. Does 5/10 mean a perfectly competent but average game to the vast majority of readers? No. It means a piece of crap they would touch with a 50 foot barge pole. It simply doesn't communicate the actual intent.
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November 4th, 2006, 22:10
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
Look I want to like it, I reallly do.
Don't like it eh? Thats it!!! I'm going to have to block the site for you again!

"For Innos!"
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November 4th, 2006, 23:40
I can't disagree with this reviewer's sentiment and the syntax was kind of fun.

However, he didn't review the actual game and its pretty obvious he didn't get past the tutorial.

I could defend his choice of score even, however he also says it would be an 8 or 9 if he had been a D&D fan.

I might not even criticise that, however with the toolset its well known how much can be changed if you are not into that with just a bit of time and effort.

But pulling the review without it standing on its own (lack of) merits is asking for trouble as already mentioned. Its a good way to make yourselves look like your in the company's pocket and your reviews are biased to your advertisers.

An editor would be smarter to just distance himself from the review as official to the 'zine and send someone else to review it.
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November 5th, 2006, 04:25
If my employee rates a greatly anticipated Chinese restaurant's grand opening very low because he's sick and tired of noodles, rice, steamed vegetables, and soy sauce, I'm going to pull the review.

Very poor game reviewing there imho
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November 5th, 2006, 05:36
"towards single-character action/RPGs (based on your "great RPGs" examples)"

While true in once sense, I could have easily named great Action/RPGs for days past such as BG 1, BG 2, PS and IWD of a top down variety.
Even though these bring back fond memories of yesterday, I do accept evolving RPGs as great as well.
While SS2 didn't really have anyone left alive to actually help develop a character, which also left little room for the diplomacy skill set, its a Fusion of old and new to me.
It’s much the same story with G1 and G2 as you couldn't effect the story or use Diplomacy skill set.
Now Bloodlines is quite different you could effect the story and use Diplomacy skill set maybe not as much as old school but once again we are dealing with evolution based on fusion.

There are obvious problems with old school games which are very clear, while the minority disagree the on principal, the majority of game buyers do agree.
First of all being forced to read book length, long drawn-out dialogues pull you out of the game experience, maybe not the story but certainly the game.
Most non hardcore will feel if they want to read they will go and read a book, if they want to play a game they want a more responsive experience than reading for 15 minutes only to play for 2 min, loot for 1 min, travel for 10 - 20 min, read for 15min start over again.
It’s the same reason you when you go to a movie you don't see acting for 5 minutes, read for 15 min and back to acting for 5 min.

Next you often are forced to micro manage everything, is this always bad, of course not, what is bad?
Its the fact that you can't choose to avoid it, old school forces everything, all at once down everyone’s throat whether they want it or not.
They are designed specifically for a very small minority of people willing to go to an all you can eat banquet of ideas and being forced to abide by everyone of them.
Most gamers want to be able to choose functions that fit their play style or limited playtime verses RL, some playing for fun might not have the time or be looking for an overwhelming experience of micromanagement.

In relation to Role-playing I do personally run into a problem with large parties in the sense I try to empathize with the characters on the screen I play/roll, so its much easier for me to focus one player to get a fuller experience, if I am playing and empathizing from the point of view of 6, I start feeling schizophrenic.

Also if the reference to Action/RPG was the games I named are more action oriented, it maybe true, its also true that Rare are RPGs where no fighting is necessary, so its perceptually based as to how much action verses diplomacy constitutes an RPG.
I.e the ones I named are RPGs by most definations unlike say Oblivion which is an Action game with some stats.

Good point Lucky Day, the Editor should have said when confronted, "We were trying to get a non D&D opinion, and our main stream D&D review didn't make in time for this months publictaion." or something along those lines.
He could have covered his and the Mag's butt, while distancing himself from this guy.

Anyway there is a good chance I would have a more postive experience with NWN2 if the Camera AI, the Companion Control and AI wasn't crap.
As another example I am forced to use Driving Cam to get as close to rearlock perspective as possible and prevent the Camera AI from doing summersaults and double half gainers yet can't get the elevation I want.
Next the Companion AI won't or can't stay put, I have looked through the Key settings and tried Right & Left clicking the Companions and nothing.
I didn't play a Rogue to have my party running over traps and running to the next fight before this one is finsihed and following me while I Stealth to scout out an area only to run in unprepared.

Then having the AI break and not follow, after retreving The Dust of the Grand Wahzoo in Dungeon of Despair from the Swamp of Unholy Terror for my Foster father, I told the Companion I wanted to look around before leaving.
(Who the hell, fights then leaves without looting, why was that dialogue necessary?)
So after I loot I start to leave and he will Not follow, so I am forced to play a Charater I did Not roll, who is a whiny brat (well not really but he could have been).

The point I guess is that while Gothic has been a buggy, frustrating and technically messy its still Gothic and you can feel it, so I care about and still want to play it.
NWN had no real emotional tie for me, I wasn't hooked on the Main story, (only Coop and Editor those meant something to me), so here we are with NWN 2 and it feels some what hollow at this point.
This isn't my final judgement obviously but it is how I feel about the game atm, so I was able to understand somethings the reviewer was trying to say, though he wasn't able to explain it functionally or do a good job trying.

"Don't like it eh? Thats it!!! I'm going to have to block the site for you again!"

ToddMcF2002 next time your wife has me over when your out of town, I gonna mess up you sock drawers and my wife says you still owe here $10 bucks, damn you !
Last edited by Acleacius; November 5th, 2006 at 10:06.
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November 5th, 2006, 12:50
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
Horses for courses but not only was that review poorly written, not only was it contradictory, not only did it hedge it's opinion with a disclaimer at the end, it assumed all roleplaying games should really be Microsoft Fantasy Simulator 2006.
Har. The problem is that no-one will admit a game he doesn't like into his definition of an RPG. Like me*, the author finds that the character sheet bookkeeping impedes the type of play he enjoys, so he defines role-playing in a way that excludes it. (Psh more like RULE-playing LOL.) Here at the 'Watch, we don't like action games, so under no circumstances can we discuss Diablo without a dozen idiots chiming in with "that's not an RPG!" If everyone understood that the term means different things to different people, and no-one has the correct definition, then people like Matt would allow that the D20 ruleset equals roleplaying for millions of gamers, and he might spare us his painfully overwritten screeds.

*Until yesterday. I never made it out of BG2's starter dungeon, and played an arcane spellcaster in NWN for the first time the other day. And… do you remember the first time you cast a maximized Ice Storm? How loudly did you cheer? :)
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November 5th, 2006, 12:58
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
There are obvious problems with old school games which are very clear, while the minority disagree the on principal, the majority of game buyers do agree. […]
They are designed specifically for a very small minority of people willing to go to an all you can eat banquet of ideas and being forced to abide by everyone of them.
Most gamers want to be able to choose functions that fit their play style or limited playtime verses RL, some playing for fun might not have the time or be looking for an overwhelming experience of micromanagement.
Sounds like you are arguing about what is popular, rather than necessarily better. Action represents the largest segment in gaming. It's no surprise that an action game with light RPG elements (potentially) crosses over into the larger action market…but that doesn't necessarily make it a better RPG. Right? The Sims is very popular - doesn't mean every game should be the Sims. Britney Spears is popular - thank god all music isn't only like that.

On micromanagement, you said:

Next you often are forced to micro manage everything, is this always bad, of course not, what is bad?
Its the fact that you can't choose to avoid it, old school forces everything, all at once down everyone’s throat whether they want it or not.
Let me quote from Matt's review, that you said you agree with:

Oh, boy — there's the portrait "plus" sign! Time to shuffle another party member (improved to four simultaneous) through the level-up grinder, which you can click "recommend" to zip past…but then, what's the point?
So, you can can avoid some of the micromanagement but then the reviewer complains "but then, what's the point?" Contradictory, much?
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November 5th, 2006, 13:40
I'm a lone voice in the Watch Wilderness: I LIKE action-RPGs…..better in most cases than the elitist snobs that I work for. Just kidding, guys…

But that's a point well-taken and one that a lot of people miss. The particular definition that a reviewer brings to a game will determine how well they like it. I would, for instance, be a poor judge of any in the Gothic series since the first one left me cold all the way 'round. It's a matter of perspective.

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November 5th, 2006, 14:47
"Sounds like you are arguing about what is popular, rather than necessarily better "
Not really my point was mostly the way I believe development has turned and why.
While SS2 was popular to a certian extent it wasn't a blockbuster, it was a critical success though, don't think there is any question about that.
I mostly was refering to the problems with old school that prevent it from being sucessful enough for Devs to continue making them based on the things I listed.


"but that doesn't necessarily make it a better RPG. Right?"
Yes you are correct afaik.
The hard part as others have mentioned is at least getting some form of general consensus much less a concise definition or meaning of what is an RPG, then what will it take to be sucessful enough to make a second game, third and fourth game?

"Let me quote from Matt's review, that you said you agree with:"
I guess what I said could be inturpted as agreeing with him, though I really feel like I said, I understand some of the things he was refering too and I did agree with some things.
There, he seems to be talking about leveling up, which is almost so second nature for any RPG even hybrids and the things I listed as problems don't really relate to basic leveling and stats.
Also my refernce to micromanagment was part of why hardcore/old school RPGs cant make enough to stay in business.
It seems they either have to do it with a very small team as a labor of love or try to make enough changes to sell enough to continue in bussiness.

I really only intended to state what seems like facts (well to me) about the way the industry makes so many hybrid RPGs and why.
I certianly don't like the way things are, it wasn't intend to be a cheer for the industry or my delusion of the way things should be.

"So, you can can avoid some of the micromanagement but then the reviewer complains "but then, what's the point?" Contradictory, much?"
Well not sure if you mean him or me but as I metion I think he was refering to leveling up, a standard at least to me.
I didn't reread but iir, he was refering to companions and there annoyances, so he didn't really care about them enough to bother.

As I mentioned my biggest problem is I can't control [order my companions to stop, stay and stfu (hehe)] my companions which is a huge head ache.

When referenced Gothic, it wouldn't/isn't as big a problem as I cared about Gothic, I feel like part of it [heh, maybe I am deluded ].
Example when I made it to Vanguard, the music started with the haunting beauty of the solo voice, basicly made me well up a tear of joy.

NWN2 could be the greatest game every made, I just don't feel it yet and I don't recall I have critized anyone because they do feel it with NWN2.
Also I am not attacking old school or hardcore, I was trying to be realistic maybe I was just doing a crappy job.

"I LIKE action-RPGs"
Me too and I do like RPGs, as you mentioned I guess its most what an indiviualis looking for or enjoys.
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November 5th, 2006, 15:32
Originally Posted by Kalia View Post
I'm a lone voice in the Watch Wilderness: I LIKE action-RPGs…..better in most cases than the elitist snobs that I work for. Just kidding, guys…
Because I come from a FPS background (or whatever Castle Wolfenstein was when I got it for my Apple ][+ in 1981 or so ..) I like action-RPG as well. I tend to like many genres - RTS is one of few that I just don't click well with.

— Mike
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November 5th, 2006, 16:12
RTS….*shivers* The ultimate ick.

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November 6th, 2006, 01:23
Well, I prefer TB games. At my age, my reflexes are not up to the rigors of twitch combat!! Action RPG's, putting the TWITs back into TWITch combat!! Sorry Kalia!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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