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Default Dungeon Lords - Expansion and Sequel on the way … REALLY!

November 21st, 2007, 15:51
I could see DL selling a million worldwide. I still see it, every now and then, for sale here in Asia. If you take into account that this product went worldwide then that's a lot of people that could of bought the game. The market isn't only in America and Europe. It was even translated into Traditional and Simplified Chinese. I can't type the chinese names for the game here but moby has it http://www.mobygames.com/game/dungeon-lords

Just in case someone wants to make a joke about pirates in Asia, I should let you know that there are people here who actually do pay for games. So please keep the laughter down to a minimum

Lethal Weapon you have to add two of my friends to that list and my mom. I convinced her to buy it so we could keep in touch over a vast ocean while kicking some monster's butts.

Despite all my rage.
I'm still just a rat in a cage.
Last edited by skavenhorde; November 21st, 2007 at 17:17.
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November 21st, 2007, 16:59
While this news certainly surprises me I must say DL could have been fixed pretty easily. The game "mechanics" were fun. What wasnt fun was the unfinished state and the incessant spawning.

Why not I say! I certainly won't be doing a blind buy this time though LOL

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November 21st, 2007, 20:35
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
The monster AI I don't accept at all - spawn, run at player.
That's a gross oversimplification. Of course that does happen. It's an aRPG after all. However, here's a sample of some of what I'm talking about that, in combination, separates DL from most of the pack, imho:

1) wolves pacing and waiting for the opening to strike
2) slimes slinking away to hide because I was pelting them from above where they couldn't get to me
3) monsters doing some great path finding to get to me through a rather complex maze of passageways rather then just sitting on the other side of an obstacle while I pincushion them, like most aRPG's do
4) monsters using melee combos, spells, special attacks (bad breath, anyone?)and multiple kinds of attacks per single monster type to keep you off balance rather than just being one trick ponies
5) a single thief in a gang stealing your money and running away so that you have to chase him through the gauntlet of his gang to get your money back before he disappears
6) rats overwhelming you in swarms jumping over each other to keep you in stun-lock
7) monsters blocking and counter-attacking effectively
8) groups of giant spiders trying to surround you by having one of them actually leap over the top to land behind you
9) ranged attackers switching to melee weapons when you close, and then back to bows when they get some distance
10) vicious fish following you up onto land to continue the attack after you've left the water (just kidding, of course… )

and so on. Lots of great variety. Have yet to come across a real-time aRPG that presented me with so much tactical variety in my opponents. For instance, TW and, much moreso, G3 aren't nearly as fun as DL in the combat department.

Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
The character development system looks interesting but really isn't that good. I'll accept some people might like making combinations like Deathlord/Warlock/Shaolei Master but, apart from the fact that these combinations don't make much sense, there's a whole bunch of silly breadth and no depth. For example, let's say you want to be some sort of heavy fighter - have a look at how many different attacks you'll actually have over the course of the entire game. It's just a system where Bradley dazzles people by throwing in every class name he can think of without a skill system of any depth to back it up.
This, of course, is somewhat a matter of taste, but I think quite the opposite. The character development system is pretty streamlined, which I like. I find most games suffer from packing in too much stuff (quests, skills, races, land mass, monster types that are just re-colored and re-named repeats, etc.) that, under the covers, just doesn't have enough differentiation and ends up feeling like filler. I really like that each class only gives you access to one or maybe two new skills plus bonuses to learn on a couple more. This, combined with what I think is a brilliant use of XP for buying skill levels that you can do between levels and is even in danger of being lost should you be killed, makes for one of the more compelling and different development systems I've come across. Certainly not the usual aRPG retread.

While your anger/bitterness/whatever is certainly justified given the ridiculously bad handling of the pre-release hype, the incomplete release itself, and the final insult of the CE, it may be coloring your opinion of the game's own merits . Just a thought…
Last edited by chamr; November 21st, 2007 at 21:00.
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November 21st, 2007, 21:35
cahmr, all I remember is that I couldn't bring myself to finish even the demo. Combat in particular was most annoying. Didn't enjoy the writing at all neither. Has patching improved the game so much so that it is at least playable? If so I might give it another try.

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November 21st, 2007, 21:44
Originally Posted by Lethal Weapon View Post
cahmr, all I remember is that I couldn't bring myself to finish even the demo. Combat in particular was most annoying. Didn't enjoy the writing at all either. Has patching improved the game so much so that it is at least playable? If so I might give it another try.
Depends. If you were annoyed because of the spawn rate, then that's addressed by reducing it to "less" in the options screen. I found that setting satisfactory. If I'm remembering correctly, the bugged demo spawn rate setting was broken. On the other hand, if you didn't like the underlying mechanics of combat, that hasn't changed. So if you didn't like that in the demo, you still won't like it in the CE.

The writing is, of course, just as stilted as it always was. If you're looking for a great, deep story that sucks you in and branches all over the place, DL is definitely not that kind of game. It's pretty much a straight-up aRPG. The story simply serves to move you from one killing field to the next.
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November 21st, 2007, 21:51
Originally Posted by chamr View Post
That's a gross oversimplification. Of course that does happen. It's an aRPG after all. However, here's a sample of some of what I'm talking about that, in combination, separates DL from most of the pack, imho:

1) wolves pacing and waiting for the opening to strike
2) slimes slinking away to hide because I was pelting them from above where they couldn't get to me
3) monsters doing some great path finding to get to me through a rather complex maze of passageways rather then just sitting on the other side of an obstacle while I pincushion them, like most aRPG's do
4) monsters using melee combos, spells, special attacks (bad breath, anyone?)and multiple kinds of attacks per single monster type to keep you off balance rather than just being one trick ponies
5) a single thief in a gang stealing your money and running away so that you have to chase him through the gauntlet of his gang to get your money back before he disappears
6) rats overwhelming you in swarms jumping over each other to keep you in stun-lock
7) monsters blocking and counter-attacking effectively
8) groups of giant spiders trying to surround you by having one of them actually leap over the top to land behind you
9) ranged attackers switching to melee weapons when you close, and then back to bows when they get some distance
10) vicious fish following you up onto land to continue the attack after you've left the water (just kidding, of course… )

and so on. Lots of great variety. Have yet to come across a real-time aRPG that presented me with so much tactical variety in my opponents. For instance, TW and, much moreso, G3 aren't nearly as fun as DL in the combat department.



This, of course, is somewhat a matter of taste, but I think quite the opposite. The character development system is pretty streamlined, which I like. I find most games suffer from packing in too much stuff (quests, skills, races, land mass, monster types that are just re-colored and re-named repeats, etc.) that, under the covers, just doesn't have enough differentiation and ends up feeling like filler. I really like that each class only gives you access to one or maybe two new skills plus bonuses to learn on a couple more. This, combined with what I think is a brilliant use of XP for buying skill levels that you can do between levels and is even in danger of being lost should you be killed, makes for one of the more compelling and different development systems I've come across. Certainly not the usual aRPG retread.

While your anger/bitterness/whatever is certainly justified given the ridiculously bad handling of the pre-release hype, the incomplete release itself, and the final insult of the CE, it may be coloring your opinion of the game's own merits . Just a thought…
I have to agree with chamr on this one… the monster AI is much better than that in most action RPGs. I saw examples just like listed above many times. As a matter of fact it could make for very challenging battles. Having played the game through a couple of times I can attest to the fact that each monster type definitely has it's own strategies, and that makes combat fun.

I also really like the character development system. It allows you to really craft a character that fights the way you enjoy the most.

May all your hits be crits!
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November 21st, 2007, 22:30
The spawn rate was the most annoying factor, yes. The mechanics were vastly inferior compared with the first Gothics, but still better than Two Worlds. Overall it always seemed as an RPG-lite, to be played when there is nothing better to do. I will redownload the demo and maybe I'll give it another shot during Christmas or sometime next year.

What bothers me the most about DL2 is that they are going multi-platiform (same with Gothic 4). Jowood has a history of releasing a number of good (albeit buggy) games. I understand their recent change of policy as a drop in the quality of their future titles. Maybe that was one of the reasons they couldn't reach an agreement with PB? And it's not just PB, several other major studios as well. Jowood desperately needs brand recognition right now and that should be the reason behind the development of DL2; bad publicity is still publicity.

“Of all the journeys you will undertake in this life, uncovering the secrets you hide from yourself is the most dangerous voyage of all.” – Shyha Tuhlwin, Therish Philosopher
Last edited by Lethal Weapon; November 21st, 2007 at 23:19.
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November 22nd, 2007, 00:16
I'm sure my view is coloured.

I simply don't recall any of that subtlety in AI — whether that's my memory or something we early buyers of DL just didn't get, I don't know.

I stand by my comments on the character system. An action/RPG often relies on new and varied attacks / animations / combos to keep the action interesting. Like almost every RPG, magic adds some depth (look at Eschalon - the combat could hardly be simpler but if I'm playing a mage, I suddenly have 40 spells to potentially play with) - but if I don't want some crazy multi-path character, what depth do I get? As I said before, if I choose to play as, say, a heavy fighter, how many combat options do I get over the life of the game? The XP system is interesting but one element doesn't make the whole thing work.

I guess it might help if you played a version where the full range of skills and options actually worked. I didn't.

If you guys enjoyed it, I obviously can't argue with that but you're in the relative minority. Nothing wrong with that - the people that share my interest in Spiderweb probably number just a few hundred - but the character system didn't make it work for a large chunk of people.

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November 22nd, 2007, 00:33
fair enough
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November 22nd, 2007, 00:37
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
I'm sure my view is coloured.

I simply don't recall any of that subtlety in AI — whether that's my memory or something we early buyers of DL just didn't get, I don't know.

I stand by my comments on the character system. An action/RPG often relies on new and varied attacks / animations / combos to keep the action interesting. Like almost every RPG, magic adds some depth (look at Eschalon - the combat could hardly be simpler but if I'm playing a mage, I suddenly have 40 spells to potentially play with) - but if I don't want some crazy multi-path character, what depth do I get? As I said before, if I choose to play as, say, a heavy fighter, how many combat options do I get over the life of the game? The XP system is interesting but one element doesn't make the whole thing work.

I guess it might help if you played a version where the full range of skills and options actually worked. I didn't.

If you guys enjoyed it, I obviously can't argue with that but you're in the relative minority. Nothing wrong with that - the people that share my interest in Spiderweb probably number just a few hundred - but the character system didn't make it work for a large chunk of people.
Yep… everyone's different, and we all enjoy different types of RPGs.

But, I'm with you on the Spiderweb thing… I guess that puts me in (at least) two minorities… I love Spiderweb's games.

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November 22nd, 2007, 01:10
Well, I'm quite curious to see what happens with this. Never played DL, but for all we know, it could be a completely different game after JoWood gets hold of it. I see the standalone expansion as a marketing hook, so it's bound to get some love from the devs to set up the sequel.

Should be interesting if nothing else.

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November 22nd, 2007, 16:26
I concur I would like to see what they are doing over there. Unless they are total morons, they know they messed up with the first one. Maybe just maybe they will try to make this one what was orginally planned for the original DL. I don't even mind if they use the same game engine just get everything working please…espcially Nether magic. I loved those spells but I couldn't use the most powerful ones until late late into the game because one of the ingredients you are not able to get until the very end of the game. Not to mention that some of the spells just didn't work. That was my biggest gripe I had but still managed to like the game and complete it.

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November 22nd, 2007, 17:16
Never played it. I was fortunate enough to hear all of the feedback on this site before I was in a position to purchase it. After reading Chamr's post on all of the different tactics seen in the game, I would be inclined to believe it's the greatest action RPG of all time. But I am more inclined to trust the masses this time.

It just sounds too shallow for me. I can't bring myself to play such games. Two Worlds is too shallow for me, so I'm certain this game would be worse. If the depth is not at least equal to Morrowind, Gothic 1 & 2, and more recently The Witcher, I won't bother. - That's why I have missed out on such 'gems' as Oblivion, Dungeon Lords, Silverfall, Loki, etc…

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November 22nd, 2007, 18:21
Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
If the depth is not at least equal to Morrowind, Gothic 1 & 2, and more recently The Witcher, I won't bother.
Stay far away from DL. Far, far away…

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November 24th, 2007, 20:14
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
I don't have homebrew capability for either PSP or DS, but from what I see … while the PSP gets all the buzz, the DS seems to have more cool stuff going on …

Oh, and Panzer Tactics is wonderful hex-grid TBS stuff …
Sorry about the lag, and offtopicishness(to everyone else), but I like to have my devices capable of reading, and alot of the homebrew stuff has at least basic text file reading capability, and most of them support HTML/XHTML as well. They're a little rough around the edges in not having very good bookmarking capabilities though, and the fact that leaving a homebrew app presently requires a soft reset or power cycle.

The web browsing capability isn't too bad either with DSOrganize's builtin browser. I also tried out the Okiwi browser but it need ALOT of work yet as it couldn't render much CSS yet. (DSOrganize's a pretty good general organizer as well.)

PSP: Yeah, I was almost swayed by it's specs the days leading up to my DS Lite purchase, but I went and checked out the homebrew efforts for both and found(as expected by virtue of user base) that the Nintendo scene had much more on the ball, not mention really getting the PSP to do anything useful required flashing of the firmware which just seemed kind of iffy, especially since there doesn't seem to be a good recovery mode yet. (although I see that someone is working on it ATM, but I don't think that it'll be a simple/cheap solution)

#Dhruin:
note the mention of the game mechanics… They were different, and appeared to be an attempt at introducing complexity to the game, but were never fully fleshed or completely bug fixed which sort of defeated the purpose to an extent IMO. i.e. if they really do something using the same or even more complex mechanics, a better engine, and a more fully finished/polished product, I'm there. I'm really really really tired of genero-ARPGs like TQ, DS2, etc. I mean Depths of Peril was the only ARPG IMO since DL that tried to do anything different or managed to even do something different(the rest may have claimed to try, but in the end they were just cheap-with-updated-grafix-Diablo-II-clones-sans-randomly-generated-areas. I happen to like randomly generated dungeons myself as it increases playability for me, excepting D2 which just rubbed me the wrong way for some reason, probably because I HATE being forced to choose preset characters from a limited selection, and then adding in tiny skill "trees".)

Story: generic fantasy stuff here

Engine: The engine was OK, I thought, just needed some more time in the over to finish updating and bug fixing it. IIRC it's an updated version of the same engine that he used for W&W.

Content: This is where they really blew, as even the CE felt pretty empty of NPCs and generic backdrop props that usually fill out areas. Monster mobs were about the only that was there in abundant supply.
Last edited by cutterjohn; November 24th, 2007 at 20:23.
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