|
Your continuous donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » Games » Indie RPG » Eschalon: Book I / Why should i play it ? WHY ?

Default Eschalon: Book I / Why should i play it ? WHY ?

November 21st, 2007, 12:37
hmmm, I acctually liked the demo as well. The best thing about Eschalon is that there is no one holding my hand, like NWN 2 my character just died he'll automatically respawn without losing any XP, my character just walked into a trap he'll automatically respawn. I just got a terrible disease.. ok no problem I just make sure my character dies and when he wakes up it'll all be gone. Or Oblivion… oo I just got to the last fight in the Arena but since I am only Level 1 the terrible master of the arena will also be level one so I can still beat him!

I just like that it offers some challange, and excitement something missing from all the recent RPG's.
GothicGothicness is online now

GothicGothicness

GothicGothicness's Avatar
SasqWatch

#41

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,203

Default 

November 21st, 2007, 13:53
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
But then I'm also enjoying id's Orc's & Elves on my DS which also feels quite old-school.
Was thinking of picking this up. How does it compare with Etrian's Odyssey, which I loved?

Lord Alex

Guest

#42

Posts: n/a

Default 

November 21st, 2007, 13:59
Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
All in all, it's good fun. Not groundbreaking but considering it's done by one person with a limited budget it's done very well.
Yes, but 30.00 well? Not sure about others here, but that's a good chunk of change for an indie game with 5+ year old gfx. I'm actually a huge supporter of indie games, on general principle, but I found the $30 pricetag to be a bit high. Does the game have enough depth (including breadth of quests, skills, etc.) to justify this cost?

Lord Alex

Guest

#43

Posts: n/a

Default 

November 21st, 2007, 14:49
I bought the game yesterday and met an interesting character and a plot twist in the content beyond the demo. Dont wanna ruin the suprise so ill just say everything is not as it seems. Hopefully theres more of stuff like this in the coming. I have ventured only small portion of the world sofar.
zakhal is online now

zakhal

zakhal's Avatar
HomelyRebel

#44

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Europa Universalis
Posts: 2,988

Default 

November 21st, 2007, 15:20
Originally Posted by zakhal View Post
I didnt like devil whiskey or avernum either.
I desperatly tried to like devil whiskey, an updated Bard's Tale sounded awsome. I would of liked it too, if the guys making the thing actually continued to support their product, but they sorta disappeared without a trace leaving the game buggy. There are a couple of guys still on the forums there (growler and somebody else that I can't remember) that try to help out but there is only so much they can do. They are funny as he** though. There was (last time I checked) sorta a call to the devopers to release the source so at least they could mod it and fix the sucker.

I'm a great supporter of Indies and try to play, if not buy, any indie rpg that comes out. I think that is where my taste in games lie now. For instance I just bought Hellgate, Witcher and recently Eschalon. Hellgate was an utter dissapointment, not even close to what I expected. Witcher is just plain awsome but the load screens are killing me and had to give it up till the patch comes out, while Eschalon is beyond what I expected. Eschalon gives me hope that other indie developers will start to take old school type RPGs more seriously. The only other game that comes close to Eschalon is good ol spiderweb's games. While I like spidey's games, I'm hoping Eschalon will push the bar on other indies.

In case no one has tried it yet Nethergate is great too, AI could be improved a bit in the older one but on the whole it had a great story with interesting characters. Nethergate and now Eschalon are two of my favs now. Not sure if dominions 3 counts as an indie but if it does then throw that one on the list, too.

Despite all my rage.
I'm still just a rat in a cage.
skavenhorde is offline

skavenhorde

skavenhorde's Avatar
Little BRO Rat
RPGWatch Team

#45

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 5,408

Default 

November 21st, 2007, 16:06
Originally Posted by Lord Alex View Post
Yes, but 30.00 well? Not sure about others here, but that's a good chunk of change for an indie game with 5+ year old gfx. I'm actually a huge supporter of indie games, on general principle, but I found the $30 pricetag to be a bit high. Does the game have enough depth (including breadth of quests, skills, etc.) to justify this cost?
$30 seemed fairly reasonable to me, bigger games with bigger budgets are always going to have economies of scale that mean they can give you a better development cost / purchase price ratio. It's one guy, he's put in a lot of work and he's put it in making the sort of game I wish there was more of. I'd like to think he'll get good sales but I'd imagine (at least on book 1) he'll have put in a lot of time for a much lower return than he could have got whoring himself to Bethesda.

Depends what you want from a game too, you complain of 5+ year old graphics, to my mind that's not an issue at all. Indeed for every moment in a graphically stunning game where I've taken real pleasure in the aesthetics of it there have been a dozen moments where I've been hugely frustrated twiddling my thumbs while the uber cool graphics load painfully slowly.

For me, its fun. I'd say there's a good chance I'll play it at least most of the way through for only £15 which is far better value than many professional releases I've paid £30+ for only to abandon within a couple of hours because all the pretty graphics in the world don't compensate for dull gameplay.
Benedict is offline

Benedict

SasqWatch

#46

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: London
Posts: 2,348

Default 

November 21st, 2007, 16:08
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
The only other game that comes close to Eschalon is good ol spiderweb's games. While I like spidey's games, I'm hoping Eschalon will push the bar on other indies.

In case no one has tried it yet Nethergate is great too, AI could be improved a bit in the older one but on the whole it had a great story with interesting characters.
It would be nice if Eschalon gave Spiderweb a kick up the arse to revamp their graphics engines a little bit. I love their games (particularly geneforge) but they could benefit from a slight facelift.
Benedict is offline

Benedict

SasqWatch

#47

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: London
Posts: 2,348

Default 

November 21st, 2007, 18:56
If the guy sells 5,000 copies (is that optimistic?) he makes probably $150k, take off a bit for costs, music, sound etc. He worked on this apparently full-time at least four years… if you lowered the price to $20 it just wouldn't be economically worthwhile IMO, and don't forget the risk. Why work as an independent developer if you can work for an established company with no risk and get paid more?
dagorkan is offline

dagorkan

Traveler

#48

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14

Default 

November 21st, 2007, 19:08
Now that he has the engine it wont take 4 years to crank out another game even if it includes improvements. It would be waste to stop now.

Unless of course the game is a total bust but I seriously doubt that. All it needs is word to potential potential customers. Ive allready posted about it on several forums. And ive seen other people post abt it too (not just rpg related boards) so i guess im not alone.

I think this game is what ultima should have been after ultima V. But lord british chose the realtime action instead.
zakhal is online now

zakhal

zakhal's Avatar
HomelyRebel

#49

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Europa Universalis
Posts: 2,988

Default 

November 21st, 2007, 19:14
Originally Posted by dagorkan View Post
Why work as an independent developer if you can work for an established company with no risk and get paid more?
If I understand this last part correctly, your saying that he should not work for himself but get hired at a company. Well there are ups and downs to that. First the ups for working for yourself…you're the only one who decides what gets put in and out of your game. Downside you have to pay for everything yourself and hope it sells well enough to do a sequel or expansion.

Working for a company, well first and foremost you have to get hired. Next, you don't get to choose what kind of game you want to do, they choose for you. Next even if by some miracle you get your bosses to green light your project, they can, on a whim or the latest market survey, change the game to meet thier new survey's expecations. Next, Your under the gun to finish by their timeline and last but most important, you no longer reap the fruits of your labour whether they be good or bad, the company gets everything including the IP. Now the good side, You get a salary…

To me this is a no brainer, if I had as much talent as Basalisk and the love the old school CRPG, then I would have to go with get a job, save up enough money to last me four years at the most and then get to work on my own title. It's hard but like Basilisk and Spiderweb has shown us it can be done if your not in it to make tons and tons of money. Don't get me wrong tons of money is nice but if you want something more like bringing your vision of a great game to the market then you'll have to stay out of the halls of the powers that be.

Despite all my rage.
I'm still just a rat in a cage.
skavenhorde is offline

skavenhorde

skavenhorde's Avatar
Little BRO Rat
RPGWatch Team

#50

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 5,408

Default 

November 21st, 2007, 21:20
Originally Posted by Benedict View Post
… all the pretty graphics in the world don't compensate for dull gameplay.
I completely agree with this statement and I agree that the man should get compensated appropriately for what he's produced. I'm just wondering if a) the content is superior (story, dialogue, art assets, etc.) than what is available in a free-to-play NWN1/NWN2 module, and b) the game has enough gameplay "meat" on its bones to justify the 30-dollar expenditure.
I've actually gone through some indie cost models myself, as my wife and I discussed creating our own indie product, and $30.00 comes out on the hefty side of our estimates. More power to Basilisk if he manages to get the thing to sell like hot-cakes, but he will draw more attention (and purchases), if he would lower that to the 19.99 sweet spot. Just my opinion, for what it's worth…

Lord Alex

Guest

#51

Posts: n/a

Default 

November 21st, 2007, 21:25
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
It's hard but like Basilisk and Spiderweb has shown us it can be done if your not in it to make tons and tons of money.
Yes, the goal of going it alone is to make "a living." That does not mean you should expect to get rich (or even moderately wealthy) running your own indie game development studio. It simply means you've now granted yourself the freedom to pursue the type of games/opportunities that really tickle your fancy.
It also means you are not beholden to management, shareholders, etc. who tend to sublimate creativity in favor of obeying the knee-jerk reactions of the current market.
Those things taken together do not have a specific price-tag but are in many ways more "valuable" than monetary rewards.

Lord Alex

Guest

#52

Posts: n/a

Default 

November 21st, 2007, 22:00
Why should I answer to Salzherz's question ? Why ?

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
Alrik Fassbauer is offline

Alrik Fassbauer

Alrik Fassbauer's Avatar
TL;DR

#53

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Old Europe
Posts: 15,966

Default 

November 21st, 2007, 22:07
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
Why should I answer to Salzherz's question ? WHY ?
/// Fixed.

“Of all the journeys you will undertake in this life, uncovering the secrets you hide from yourself is the most dangerous voyage of all.” – Shyha Tuhlwin, Therish Philosopher
Lethal Weapon is offline

Lethal Weapon

Lethal Weapon's Avatar
Sentinel

#54

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 257

Default 

November 21st, 2007, 22:25
Originally Posted by Lord Alex View Post
Does the game have enough depth (including breadth of quests, skills, etc.) to justify this cost?
In a word: yes. 12 hours in, I'm still finding new game mechanics and engine tricks. Usually by this point in most games I've played, AAA included, all the "neato" cards have been played, and I begin to get that "grinding" feeling. Not so with Eschalon.
chamr is offline

chamr

chamr's Avatar
Mounted Highborn

#55

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: CA, USA
Posts: 850

Default 

November 21st, 2007, 23:37
I've never really understood quibbling relatively small price differences for entertainment but before you jump on me, I know I'm pretty much on my own.

The comparison to free NWN mods is irrelevant to me - I've played my fill of them and want something new. The difference of $20 to $30 is a trip to McDonalds and, otherwise, I measure in terms of my entertainment.

Here's where I don't get it. If I end up spending 20-25 hours on this (estimate of one campaign), then I was entertained for that period (and if not, I stop playing). My leisure time is far more valuable than the $10 difference. I have $10 (even though I'm an average middle wage earner) but I don't have 20 hours all that easily. Let's forget the price for a minute - I get to the end of the game and say "that was pretty good". I'm quite satisfied. I don't then think, "you know, that actually only cost me $1/per hour instead of $1.50/hour — wow, that game was GREAT!!!".

The entertainment was the same — good or bad — regardless of the price. Obviously this doesn't scale (paying $1000 for a game) but current game price scales, I don't really care.

-= RPGWatch =-
Dhruin is offline

Dhruin

Dhruin's Avatar
SasqWatch
Super Moderator
RPGWatch Team

#56

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 11,967

Default 

November 22nd, 2007, 00:03
What people are willing to pay (or UNwilling to pay) for different things has always been a source of amazement to me. I used to work in a big box home warehouse store in the garden center. People would come in and literally spend hundreds of dollars for the materials for a new kitchen countertop, but they would be reluctant and sometimes enraged to pay two dollars for a six pack of marigolds or twenty dollars for a tree. Some would try to get you to take money off these items, whereas they would never dream of asking the guy in appliances to take fifty bucks off a refrigerator.

I guarantee the tree(potentially)will be here long after their countertop or appliance needs to be replaced—but it's all a matter of personal expectations and values.

I think Lord Alex does have a point, though, because for many people games are in a class with the flowers and trees above, i.e. an extra; not exactly a luxury, but not a necessity either. I doubt I would have taken a chance with Depths of Peril or The Chosen at a much higher price tag, even though the ten dollar difference is indeed negligible—it's a mindset about what you need or even what you deserve as a toy, perhaps.

Still, I've only played a little of the demo, but I think Eschalon shows every sign of being worth the price. I'm looking forward to after the holiday when I can get into it a bit more.

Where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
magerette is offline

magerette

magerette's Avatar
Hedgewitch
RPGWatch Team

#57

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,929

Default 

November 22nd, 2007, 01:01
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
I've never really understood quibbling relatively small price differences for entertainment but before you jump on me, I know I'm pretty much on my own.
Not at all. I'm right there with you. To me, comp games are clearly one of the best entertainment values to be had out there. If you enjoy the game, your dollar to hour of entertainment is unbeatable. Hell, even if you quit halfway through, you've still spent your money more wisely than most popular forms of entertainment. In the case that you hate the game, I don't see how the risk you take on a game is any different than any other form of entertainment. Except that with games you often get to play a considerable demo of it before buying. Again, another advantage over other forms.

I'm guessing the whole quibbling over $10 bucks is some combination of relative economics (I want the best deal within the context of a given product type, regardless of how it compares to other product types price-wise or what the total savings actually amounts to) and the perceived "optional" versus "necessary" purchase dichotomy magerette pointed out. Who really knows…
chamr is offline

chamr

chamr's Avatar
Mounted Highborn

#58

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: CA, USA
Posts: 850

Default 

November 22nd, 2007, 03:39
Originally Posted by chamr View Post
I'm guessing the whole quibbling over $10 bucks is some combination of relative economics (I want the best deal within the context of a given product type, regardless of how it compares to other product types price-wise or what the total savings actually amounts to) and the perceived "optional" versus "necessary" purchase dichotomy magerette pointed out. Who really knows…
Note that I'm not necessarily talking about myself here, though I do have a sort of mental calculator specifically devoted to game purchases that occasionally spits out a "do not compute" on titles that seem over-priced. I tend to buy a fair amount of games, to be honest, so I make sure that my money is spent appropriately. Were I someone who only bought a game per month, $30 WOULD seem negligible.
However, my main argument concerns the "trees and flowers" analogy someone made earlier. There are a lot of people out there who find that $10 difference to be significant. If you want to know why games like "Deer Hunter" sell a million copies in the US, it is because the Walmart customers who buy them have made a choice between that game and the 45.00 Half Life 2 next to it on the shelf. Both are first-person shooters, but one has less an impact on beer and pizza money than the other….

Lord Alex

Guest

#59

Posts: n/a

Default 

November 22nd, 2007, 04:14
Originally Posted by Lord Alex View Post
've actually gone through some indie cost models myself, as my wife and I discussed creating our own indie product, and $30.00 comes out on the hefty side of our estimates. More power to Basilisk if he manages to get the thing to sell like hot-cakes, but he will draw more attention (and purchases), if he would lower that to the 19.99 sweet spot. Just my opinion, for what it's worth…
Did you account the dollar decline into it? The game cost me EUR 19.67 which is exactly what shareware games have cost me before i.e vga planets was 20$ way back when dollar value was 1€ = 1$.
zakhal is online now

zakhal

zakhal's Avatar
HomelyRebel

#60

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Europa Universalis
Posts: 2,988
RPGWatch Forums » Games » Indie RPG » Eschalon: Book I / Why should i play it ? WHY ?
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:58.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright by RPGWatch