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Default Deus Ex - Third Game in Series Announced

November 28th, 2007, 00:39
Originally Posted by curiously undead View Post
actually JDR the producer doesn't necessarily mean anything. it could mean lots of input, or little at all just money or a signiture. technically many things are producer by those who are no longer living but had something to do with it from its original conception to the final product.

Agree


Originally Posted by curiously undead View Post
i honestly believe though that deus ex 3 will be better than fallout 3. anyone else share that sentiment? this is based on a zero expectation model where all prior games in the series aren't accounted for in a basis of judgement. though along those lines deus ex 3 has much less to lose because of the lack of success of deus ex 2.

Disagree

I'm really looking forward to playing a large, free roaming game set in the Fallout universe, although I know a lot of old-school Fallout fans don't like the idea. I think Bethesda learned a lot from the mistakes they made in Oblivion, and I'm confident that we're going to get an immersive crpg from them.

I just don't have the same confidence that Eidos is going to deliver a great Deus Ex experience.
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November 28th, 2007, 01:34
Originally Posted by JDR13
You're joking right?
Hehe, nope and I am just trying to get some factual info out, whether it comes from you, me or someone else.
Being outside of the office isn't the only criteria, I am just trying to explain he was NOT there, hence he could not be making all these creative input decisions you are referring too.
Additionally even wspector himself admitted in interviews that circular optical inventory system was his in the original DX and he thankfully was overruled by the main team.
It seems sort of obvious to me that since wspector let smith take a giant crap on the franshise his payback was that poorly implemented inventory system he could never get in the original DX.

Thanks for the link and yes, I know he was a producer, it comes up in game right after the famous line about Salty Fries.

Originally Posted by JDR13
As the producer I'd have to say he probably had input in nearly every decision that was made during development
Producers don't do that, your thinking of lead designers or project managers.
I am not saying he isn't talented or hasn't been an influence on the industry, just he often gets credit for things he didn't necessarily do.
I used to think many of the same things, before DX2 and it was klevine that corrected me on Blue's.

Additionally look at your own link to Moby, it sites 1994 as release date for SS and at the interview, which HiddenX kindly posted say's in his own words came to LG in 1996 and left 1997, so he couldn't have made major decisions on a game which had been finished for 2 years, unless he was making decisions from Origin.

Originally Posted by curiously undead
i honestly believe though that deus ex 3 will be better than fallout 3. anyone else share that sentiment?
Nice call.
A little part of me when I think of bethesda and F3, if they just weren't so DAMN sure of themselves about all the changes they are insisting on, not to mention there lack of quality story, quest abilities and refusals to hire more competent people.

Originally Posted by Dhruin
My review from RPGDot days:
Oh, thanks for the link I don't remember seeing that one.

Originally Posted by txa1265
I wouldn't have hated it so badly if it wasn't an obvious crappy console port
That's so true, I replayed it recently with all the community mods and it's tolerable now, but still sad as we all know how good it could and should have been.

Originally Posted by JDR13
I think Bethesda learned a lot from the mistakes they made in Oblivion
I sure hope your right JDR13, it would certainly be another heartbreaker if not.

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November 28th, 2007, 07:51
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
Producers don't do that, your thinking of lead designers or project managers.
I am not saying he isn't talented or hasn't been an influence on the industry, just he often gets credit for things he didn't necessarily do.
I used to think many of the same things, before DX2 and it was klevine that corrected me on Blue's.
No, I'm thinking of Warren Spector, who is also a designer and was a big part of most of the games he worked on. Just because producers in some projects might simply be pencil pushers doesn't mean that Spector was, he definitely worked on SS.

The lineage of System Shock can be clearly traced to older games developed by Looking Glass Technologies and published by Origin - the excellent Ultima Underworld I and II. And there were followers too - to name a few, System Shock 2 (naturally) or Deus Ex. The brain behind Deus Ex was Warren Spector who was the producer of System Shock so there's a link between those games. Warren Spector also participated in the design of System Shock, although - just like with most games - the design of System Shock was a teamwork and it is not possible to name a single person as an "author" of the game. In this particular case the design team was led by Doug Church.

It's no biggie, I can see where people would get thrown off by his title of producer, as most producers probably do only what their job requires. Few of them have the type of background that Spector had, which included editing and writing.


Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
Additionally look at your own link to Moby, it sites 1994 as release date for SS and at the interview, which HiddenX kindly posted say's in his own words came to LG in 1996 and left 1997, so he couldn't have made major decisions on a game which had been finished for 2 years, unless he was making decisions from Origin.
You seem to be a little confused here, Origin was part of System Shock from the beginning. Warren Spector also produced and worked on Ultima Underworld for Looking Glass (as part of Origin) 2 years prior to SS, when LG was known as Blue Sky Productions.
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November 28th, 2007, 16:23
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
The quality of a game doesn't change based on expectations, and I find that attitude quite puzzling.

Sure, if you expect a lot from a game, you might be disappointed, but that doesn't change anything about the game itself. If we are to evaluate games, then we must strive to do it in an objective fashion, and we have to take things in context. Games don't exist in a vacuum and you can't ignore the legacy of a game, nor can you ignore established levels of quality in any genre.
No the quality of a game doesn't change as it is a constant. Your perception of it and willingness to give it a chance certainly does though.

When DX2 came out and I saw the demo and read the reviews I hated it. I swore I would never play.

A bunch of years later though I could take it as a game in its own right. In that case it measures up to a fun game better than 95% of what is on the market at the moment.
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December 3rd, 2007, 16:47
JDR13, maybe I am confused however being a producer on SS and a Project Director on Deus Ex are different titles due to the different jobs. In Deus Ex he did both, but for SS he only produced, outside of the company and as I mentioned unless they have changed the job description for producers he didn't have real input but outside organizer.

Like I mentioned at first, if your aware of what he did on SS, I would be glad to look. I have no reason to doubt klevine about this and I haven't seen anything suggesting he is incorrect at this point. We all agree he is a producer, Orign and LG worked together for years, but you feel he was a contributor on SS to the point he helped design it, yet I don't see any evidence of this. Additionally there could be producers that have input on design but I don't see it here or can I think of any producer that had significant design input, of course I would be glad to see some.

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December 3rd, 2007, 17:07
Speaking of Deus Ex… even if they have different names and different themes etc., I would actually consider Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines to be a worthy "successor", because it had everything I liked about Deus Ex and more, like a basic but fun skill system and lots of valid choices that all mattered and let you play the game like you chose to. Same sort of fun.

Are there any other games like those two?

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December 6th, 2007, 09:55
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
JDR13, maybe I am confused however being a producer on SS and a Project Director on Deus Ex are different titles due to the different jobs. In Deus Ex he did both, but for SS he only produced, outside of the company and as I mentioned unless they have changed the job description for producers he didn't have real input but outside organizer.

Like I mentioned at first, if your aware of what he did on SS, I would be glad to look. I have no reason to doubt klevine about this and I haven't seen anything suggesting he is incorrect at this point. We all agree he is a producer, Orign and LG worked together for years, but you feel he was a contributor on SS to the point he helped design it, yet I don't see any evidence of this. Additionally there could be producers that have input on design but I don't see it here or can I think of any producer that had significant design input, of course I would be glad to see some.


I still don't understand where you get the term "outside producer" from, as there is no such thing. I even tried using Google and Yahoo to look up a definition for that term in case I was mistaken, but there is no such position in the video\PC game industry from what I can see. Anyways, he is clearly listed as the producer in the official credits anyways.

As far as him contributing to actual work on the game, there is no doubt about it, I have already posted an excerpt from an article about him that mentioned it. I would be happy to find the link to the article itself and post it if you would like.

On the other hand, if you have seen a source somewhere that specifically states contradicting information regarding that, I would be happy to view it if you could post a link.
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December 6th, 2007, 17:27
Originally Posted by Arhu View Post
Speaking of Deus Ex… even if they have different names and different themes etc., I would actually consider Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines to be a worthy "successor", because it had everything I liked about Deus Ex and more, like a basic but fun skill system and lots of valid choices that all mattered and let you play the game like you chose to. Same sort of fun.

Are there any other games like those two?
Bloodlines was probably the closest to Deus Ex that I've seen. I liked the conspiracy theory laden cyberpunk setting a lot more than the gothic big city of Bloodlines though, and I found Deus Ex to be more open in terms of where you could go. Bloodlines was a bit on-rails in that regard. I remember being extremely frustrated that I couldn't go to certain places when it seemed glaringly obvious that such a thing would be possible (eg un-movable cardboard boxes in your way).
Bloodlines was also heavily skewed to melee combat rather than ranged, and I far prefer ranged.

You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.
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December 7th, 2007, 05:57
JDR13, I already mentioned several times where I got that from, it was a generalized description by klevine about spector's role in SS. Additionally I never said it was an industry position, not sure where you get this from, I was trying from the start to get specific definitions down, you seemed to think it was unnecessary.
I am aware of the info on Moby if this is the link your referring to and I have stated many times he is indeed credited as the Producer, even specifically pointed to Moby myself and mentioned they are a good resource but not always completely accurate. Afaik, I have never seen any article that specifies what spector did on SS, of course if you have that info as I mentioned I would love to see it. You still seem to think Producers are involved heavily with design, while of course it's possible but very very unusual, which is the whole point of having different titles, to generally predefine roles. Not only have I not seen anything on spectors actual design contributions, nor have I see most any producer in any medium actually designing, they are overseers, of budgets, marketing and schedules, unless as I mentioned you are using a different definition.

Arhu & Gallifrey Bloodlines even surpassed many aspects of Deus Ex, notably Acting, Animation, Script, Dialogs and Strong & Defined NPC Personalities and often the SQs are intertwined with their specific Personalities. Bloodlines was possibly destined to be one of the best RPGs ever made, dashed by 17 year old whom hacked Gabes PC, forcing activison to freeze development of Troika's only project for more than 6 months, with Troika and Bloodlines never recovering.

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Last edited by Acleacius; December 7th, 2007 at 06:04.
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December 7th, 2007, 06:57
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
JDR13, I already mentioned several times where I got that from, it was a generalized description by klevine about spector's role in SS.

If that is your only claim to having a source of information regarding this, then I will consider the issue closed.

Ken Levine didn't join LGS until 2 years after SS was released, and had nothing to do with that project whatsoever. He was not there when the game was created, nor could he have had any definite way of knowing who did what on that project.



Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
I am aware of the info on Moby if this is the link your referring to and I have stated many times he is indeed credited as the Producer, even specifically pointed to Moby myself and mentioned they are a good resource but not always completely accurate. Afaik, I have never seen any article that specifies what spector did on SS, of course if you have that info as I mentioned I would love to see it. You still seem to think Producers are involved heavily with design, while of course it's possible but very very unusual, which is the whole point of having different titles, to generally predefine roles. Not only have I not seen anything on spectors actual design contributions, nor have I see most any producer in any medium actually designing, they are overseers, of budgets, marketing and schedules, unless as I mentioned you are using a different definition.

That is not the link I am refering too, I am refering to the excerpt that I showed exactly 7 post above this one. It comes from this link- here

Nowhere have I ever stated that I think Producers are involved heavily with design, so I'm not sure where you get the idea of me thinking that. What I said about Spector was - "generally regarded as being one of the main contributors in the creation of that title."

It seems to me that the problem here is that you think anyone who wasn't actually sitting at a work station typing in lines of code couldn't possibly have been a main contributor. There are many positions that contribute to the creation of a game title, and many ways to do it. If W.Spector was not a main contributor on SS then why is his name synonymous with the title? Many sources even mention him as being the "creator" of that game, even though I would not go so far as to call him that. You keep asking me to provide links (I give you one above), however you still have yet to show anyone anything that backs up your claim that Spector was "only" an outside producer and nothing else.
Last edited by JDR13; December 7th, 2007 at 07:08.
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December 7th, 2007, 15:29
Originally Posted by JDR13
If that is your only claim to having a source of information regarding this, then I will consider the issue closed.
Sounds fine to me, as we all agree he is credited as a producer but your definition of producer seems different than in any industry. He doesn't need to be sitting at a terminal, hell he wasn't in the same building, even company or job position to be a creator. Clearly I haven't seen a single design he was credited with, I give him credit for producer, how could I give him credit for creating when there is no evidence nor was that his job or of what he created?

In regards to klevine, yes I sure he has no idea what he's talking about, he only worked in the same actual house and in the NEXT room developing SS2, with ALL the designers of SS1, nah couldn't possibly know what he was talking about. Even though it was at most 2 years after the release of SS 1, I am sure as a lead designer and sole Writer credited with SS2, he had NO contact with anyone associated with SS1.

Btw I finally found the post, Blue has the crappiest forum and search functions in the world , makes it impossible to find old post. Here is klevine's post and then the linked thread.

36. Re: No subject Apr 3, 01:33 Ken Levine


Guys, Ken Levine here…

Clear a few things up:

Though I worked on Thief (story and original game concept) and was lead design and story guy on System Shock 2, I had zip to do with Underworld and Shock 1, except for playing them ravenously when they came out.

Also, as far as I know, Warren externally produced Shock 1, Doug Church and Paul Neurath (with help from some other really smart guys like Dorian Hart, Greg LoPiccolo, Mark LeBlanc, Tim Stellmach, Rob Fermier, Robb Waters, and others) really conceived the title and were with it through it's whole production.

Credit where credit is due (and in my case, no credit where it ain't!)
http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/boa…1&view=threads

I realize it doesn't matter since he wouldn't have a clue, but makes for some nice reading.

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December 7th, 2007, 16:07
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
Sounds fine to me, as we all agree he is credited as a producer but your definition of producer seems different than in any industry. He doesn't need to be sitting at a terminal, hell he wasn't in the same building, even company or job position to be a creator. Clearly I haven't seen a single design he was credited with, I give him credit for producer, how could I give him credit for creating when there is no evidence nor was that his job or of what he created?

What "evidence" do you need? I already showed you a link that mentioned he participated in the design work, something which I noticed you chose to ignore.

What does that matter anyways? Once again, I simply said he was a major contributer to the project in general. Your entire focus seems to be centered around design, as if that is the only thing that makes a game. How is "designing" and "contributing" the same thing? It seems you're starting to shift the discussion now, although I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it is unintentional.


Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
In regards to klevine, yes I sure he has no idea what he's talking about, he only worked in the same actual house and in the NEXT room developing SS2, with ALL the designers of SS1, nah couldn't possibly know what he was talking about. Even though it was at most 2 years after the release of SS 1, I am sure as a lead designer and sole Writer credited with SS2, he had NO contact with anyone associated with SS1.
Btw I finally found the post, Blue has the crappiest forum and search functions in the world , makes it impossible to find old post. Here is klevine's post and then the linked thread.

http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/boa…1&view=threads

I realize it doesn't matter since he wouldn't have a clue, but makes for some nice reading.

Indeed it was an interesting read, although I was expecting more. At no point whatsoever does it lend credence to your claim that Spector was "only" a producer and did absolutely nothing else, nor does it do anything to indicate that he was not a major contributer.
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December 7th, 2007, 17:15
Umm hi guys, I don't mean to intrude on the whole Ken Levine and Spector thing but I just wanted to add in my 2 cents.

WOOOHHOOOOOO Dues EX 3, come on you gotta love that. I even liked Dues ex 2, hey it wasn't perfect but sure was a hell of a lot better than most of the other contenders out there. So once again WOOOO AND HOOOO.

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December 8th, 2007, 08:04
Originally Posted by JDR13
What "evidence" do you need? I already showed you a link that mentioned he participated in the design work, something which I noticed you chose to ignore.
Oh, sorry was that intended as credible evidence of his involvement, I must have missed it reading their opinion piece which generalizes, sort of like you.
The only factual things being ignored seem to be spector's resume I posted in our last thread of this discussion and any known industry definition of Producer.

What does that matter anyways? Once again, I simply said he was a major contributer to the project in general. Your entire focus seems to be centered around design
Lol, this is why it's important to get clear definitions, at once you seem to deny what a Producer is/does, then suggest he helped create which most people consider design and now you shifting to contributing.
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Ok fine what did spector contribute? I can't get any simpler than this.
Let's see some more of that fancy foot work, Shelly!

Originally Posted by JDR13
At no point whatsoever does it lend credence to your claim that Spector was "only" a producer and did absolutely nothing else, nor does it do anything to indicate that he was not a major contributer.
Right, of course this has nothing to do with anything I have been saying and your not changing your position once again, either right? So now your saying he was doing something else besides being a Producer what did he contribute as an "externally produced" which part do you not understand, the definition of Producer?
He just said
Originally Posted by Ken Levine
Also, as far as I know, Warren externally produced Shock 1" and then "Doug Church and Paul Neurath (with help from some other really smart guys like Dorian Hart, Greg LoPiccolo, Mark LeBlanc, Tim Stellmach, Rob Fermier, Robb Waters, and others) really conceived the title and were with it through it's whole production.
Is it Conceived next to the list of all the Actual SS1 designers, that is confusing you and has nothing to do with what I have mentioned to you, also?
So you expect levine to come out saying spector had no input as proof? Hell, you would just make up some other bizarre critiera or be back to levine doesn't know, he wasn't there. I certainly hope your job doesn't require reality based logic.

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December 8th, 2007, 11:51
Oh, sorry was that intended as credible evidence of his involvement, I must have missed it reading their opinion piece which generalizes, sort of like you.
The only factual things being ignored seem to be spector's resume I posted in our last thread of this discussion and any known industry definition of Producer.
Ah right, here we go again, an opinion piece. Please explain how,

The brain behind Deus Ex was Warren Spector who was the producer of System Shock so there's a link between those games. Warren Spector also participated in the design of System Shock, although - just like with most games - the design of System Shock was a teamwork and it is not possible to name a single person as an "author" of the game.

would be an opinion, this should be good. Make sure you include how you know for a fact that it is not reliable.

Lol, this is why it's important to get clear definitions, at once you seem to deny what a Producer is/does, then suggest he helped create which most people consider design and now you shifting to contributing.
Dance baby, dance! Serpentine Shelly. Serpentine!
Ok fine what did spector contribute? I can't get any simpler than this.
Let's see some more of that fancy foot work, Shelly!
What did Spector contribute?
You mean besides producing the game, participating in the design, and doing voice work? Maybe he ordered pizza for the rest of the crew sometimes as well.

Interesting how when I point out your now obvious attempt to shift the discussion, you would attempt to accuse me of the same. You keep focusing on the words Producer and Design, while continuing to ignore the fact that all I said was - "generally regarded as being one of the main contributors in the creation of that title." You still have not explained why you believe that this man, who's name is so strongly connected to the game, was definitely not a main contributer.


Right, of course this has nothing to do with anything I have been saying and your not changing your position once again, either right? So now your saying he was doing something else besides being a Producer what did he contribute as an "externally produced" which part do you not understand, the definition of Producer?
Is it Conceived next to the list of all the Actual SS1 designers, that is confusing you and has nothing to do with what I have mentioned to you, also?
So you expect levine to come out saying spector had no input as proof? Hell, you would just make up some other bizarre critiera or be back to levine doesn't know, he wasn't there. I certainly hope your job doesn't require reality based logic.
Well you're right about one thing, I am confused. I'm confused as how Ken Levine saying: "Also, as far as I know, Warren externally produced Shock 1", would indicate to you that Warren Spector couldn't possibly have had a major impact on the project.

But I'm sure you can explain that one also.

*Edit* As well as this.
Nah, nobody considers him to be a major contributor to that game.
Last edited by JDR13; December 8th, 2007 at 15:43. Reason: To show Acleacius an example of reality based logic. LOL
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