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December 13th, 2007, 19:33
Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
Shouldn't you guys be trying to make the games more interesting and fun instead of making them more visually detailed? Which realism don't you like? I'd vote for more of the good stuff and less of the unnecessary stuff, more narrative and less graphic detail.
How about both? While modern game development costs a lot more resources than it used to be, I'm not convinced that this takes away from the other parts of the game. I always see people complain about this when a game looks good. Why do you think that a game with good visuals has to be less deep? Maybe that's your experience, but from my own, I'm not seeing it.
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December 13th, 2007, 19:38
Originally Posted by magerette View Post
Gaming boards everywhere are full of elitists, sometimes psychopathically so it seems. There's definitely an ego factor involved, and often a corresponding cliquism, but buried in the sludge of personal preferences there is also the desire for excellence.

Hey, I'm no pshycho really I'm not. Sorry if I got a little carried away in my examples there but the point I was trying to make (through tons of examples) is that the whole good vs evil thing is all about perception. Just look at the political system for a minute and see that dems see good ways of doing things vs the Rep see good ways of doing things.

The Witcher is the first game that I've played that has taken this into account. That is what The Witcher is all about "you the player" choose your actions on what you perceive to be good or evil. When I roleplay a game I "pretend" what I would do in real life when making choices like the witcher does. So sorry for bringing real life into a game but when talking about good vs evil you sorta have to ask yourself what the heck is good and evil and I came to the conclusion that it is how you percieve it to be.

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December 13th, 2007, 19:42
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
When I roleplay a game I "pretend" what I would do in real life when making choices like the witcher does.
Hey, this is another thing I've noticed. Personally, I think it's rather boring to pretend that the protagonist's choices are like your own. It's much more enjoyable to just go all out and pretend I'm a psychopathic lunatic that has mood swings, or something. So I see some people with the same arguments that play RPG's in similar ways and view the themes they encounter from their personal, real-life perspective.
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December 13th, 2007, 20:39
Originally Posted by Thaurin View Post
Why do you think that a game with good visuals has to be less deep? Maybe that's your experience, but from my own, I'm not seeing it.
Oh, brother. I'll stick with my point of view.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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December 13th, 2007, 20:43
Originally Posted by Thaurin View Post
Lie? No, Oblivion actually is an RPG. This is exactly the elitism that was spoken about. Oblivion: doing quests? check. Leveling up a character? check. Looting? check. Exploration? check? Dialogue? check. Whether these elements have been executed to your satisfaction is an entirely different matter.
Dude you just described the diablo series and warcraft 3.
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December 13th, 2007, 21:33
Originally Posted by cuthbert View Post
Dude you just described the diablo series and warcraft 3.
Fair enough. Then I would call hack 'n slash a sub-genre of RPG. Warcraft 3 was a cross-over title: RTS with RPG elements.
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December 14th, 2007, 01:37
Originally Posted by Thaurin View Post
Hey, this is another thing I've noticed. Personally, I think it's rather boring to pretend that the protagonist's choices are like your own. It's much more enjoyable to just go all out and pretend I'm a psychopathic lunatic that has mood swings, or something. So I see some people with the same arguments that play RPG's in similar ways and view the themes they encounter from their personal, real-life perspective.
I know it may be more boring but I normally don't do the "evil" quests. I've tried playing arcanum or KOTOR as an "evil" character but it just gets boring after awhile. It is so predictable, every quest choice is either ok be a good and helping person or be a jerk and if I'm going to follow a story to the end, I want to be helping create a better world, not destroy it.

Jade Empire was the only game (other than Witcher) that brought rational thought into why your character would want to be an arrogant jerk. The way of the closed fist may of been "evil" but it also brought with it a reason to why it was "evil" instead of the usual "well your evil so be as selfish and stupid as you want to be."

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December 14th, 2007, 02:41
Originally Posted by Prime Junta
OK, then. How about:
Look, if it can be done fine, I just don't see, however if I had to give my opinion I would say those in your list to accomplish a good playable evil would be much better suited to the Strategy genre.

By that definition, evil would be as good as non-existent
Not really as I mentioned true evil is committed as a known or intent of if your in a religious cult, gas chamber guard or 50.9% of the population here in the US with your leaders in control of almost all the information you receive and if you listen to anything which they don't support you are the enemy, you as the controlled are acting not of freewill. Same as a solider in the battlefield, he is cut off from most all forms of communication, except his orders now due to human instint he may question an order of destroying a village, yet if he is told (and knows no better att) if he unit doesn't act immediately the war is lost (or some such) he isn't committing an actual evil act if it's not known. Same as the US citizens whom believed Iraq had something to do with 911, when every bit of real evidence pointed against this, doesn't make the actual citizens wrong any more than the German citizens during WW2, it was the leaders committing the actual acts, by Ordering Known Evil Acts. It's easy sit back and second guess things when you don't have all the circumstances and say that was an evil act in and of itself but is it an evil act to judge these situations without first knowing the circumstances, just to find a scapegoat or to drive bloodlust and enrage your citizens? Seems so, for the most part.

I don't want more evil. I want better evil.
Well I think I do understand what your saying and asking for, yet I am disagreeing it can be done, in the RPG format, well to be more accuarte nothing I have seen yet nor do I see how it's possible, atm. As I mentioned above, I do see it possible as a sort of Strategy game.

Originally Posted by Thaurin
Your and most of society's perspective of it is that they are vile, wrong and evil. However, there is no universal truth that they are inherently evil.
Well you got me there, I am pretty shocked you seem to deny human nature and have no regard for Humanity, since that's not possibly something known to be inherent I can only guess you learned this somewhere school, parents, government or maybe religion, to bad really.

However, a long time ago (and not so long ago) it was perfectly acceptable to keep slaves and was even regulated by law.
Your joking I hope, if not you seriously need something, since I don't know you I couldn't say but you really need to talk to more people.
If you want to test yourself on this, just to make sure your right, ask yourself this question what are you basing this on?
Are you next going to say it's ok to burn women at the stake, if they refuse your selfish sexual advances and say it's ok in some religions?
I really hope you reconsider your position.

Oblivion actually is an RPG. This is exactly the elitism ………..check? Dialogue? check.
Lol, if you say so, of course you would be wrong. Either that or you have a very low expectation of an RPG or maybe your using some new PR bullshit definition?
RPG almost by definition (RP or P&P) is having an effect on the world, without choices you playing an Action game, even if (like most oblivion quest) you have quests it just standard quest that could be from Doom go get the Green Key to Open the Green door. There is no real consequence and certainly no meaningful dialog, hell the damn voice actors change in mid dialog. The only slight real case you might have is the character generation, yet it doesn't matter which you choose they all end up maxed out the same if you put even the slightest effort into it. oblivion is much closer to diablo than an RPG but you might be of the oppinion diablo is an RPG *snicker*.
See that's a big problem with this bullshit campaign m$ is doing now hell they don't give a shit what most of us whom have been playing games 10+ years think, they are trying to program younger games blurring the lines.
If you think about it, mostly an attempt to do the very least possible and still be able to pretend it's an RPG, hell look at your list got stats, dialog (damn I love that one, oh yeah oblivion the king of great dialogs ) sure they it makes them an RPG.

sometimes I just want to play an RPG where I don't affect the world/story or have "deep" gameplay.
Lol, right you want to play an action game, called an RPG.

Damn this topic grew two pages in a couple of hours.

Trust me, most of the names I have been called you can't translate in any language…they're not even real words as much as a succession of violent images.
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December 14th, 2007, 05:41
Originally Posted by Dusk
I wonder if game industry is being assimilated by an economic system which reminds me of Hollywood movie industry.
Sadly, I think your on to something there.

Originally Posted by fatBastard()
However, speaking of motivated evil: Saren's reasons for doing what he does is actually pretty darn believable. Misguided? Absolutely, but nevertheless very believable.
Nice to have good villains, I bet Prime Junta is pissed he can't play as Saren.

Originally Posted by Benedict
I know this is horrific but I'm doing it anyway because I'm pure evil!".
Exactly, this is way and how great villians are made in games and movies, yet seems nigh impossible to play it in a RPG, personally I find it much more rewarding to fight against evil, so I don't feel I am missing anything.

Originally Posted by PatrickWeekes
can get shades of gray with no clear moral choices in real life. When I play a video game, I want to be a good guy who whacks bad guys.
Oh, yeah that's what I talkin bout! Chicks dig guys, who kick evil butt, fact!!

Originally Posted by magerette
I think that viewpoint really expresses the action rpg genre
I really disagree, at least in my experience and even polls here on the Watch most people at least some shade of good and most are turned off by evil.

Originally Posted by Prime Junta
Without Hell, Heaven would have no meaning; that sort of thing.
Not, true. They certainly not part of Human Nature, we could be born, live and die and never know about them. One constant in religions I have notice is the Instructions always come after the fact, never born with which is why it always changes.

Originally Posted by BillSeurer
Jaheira had died early on when I played BG 1 and I had dropped Imoen at some point and forgotten about her
Dude, just cause she was lying there flopping around in a pool of blood don't mean shes dead, chicks can just pop right back up, scares the crap out me.

Originally Posted by Thaurin
It's much more enjoyable to just go all out and pretend I'm a psychopathic lunatic that has mood swings, or something.
Huh, uh just keep telling yourself that.

Trust me, most of the names I have been called you can't translate in any language…they're not even real words as much as a succession of violent images.
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December 14th, 2007, 11:18
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
Well you got me there, I am pretty shocked you seem to deny human nature and have no regard for Humanity, since that's not possibly something known to be inherent I can only guess you learned this somewhere school, parents, government or maybe religion, to bad really.
Actually, it is you who has learned to think in a certain way, as have I, as has everyone. There is only your perspective of reality. Reality itself has no moral system. In fact, in a way, nature is the truest form of reality and we have deviated greatly from its ways.

Your joking I hope, if not you seriously need something, since I don't know you I couldn't say but you really need to talk to more people.
If you want to test yourself on this, just to make sure your right, ask yourself this question what are you basing this on?
I'm basing this on history. Like I said, there really is no denying that whole civilizations consider things differently than ours does. Even today, we vastly differ in perspectives. Do you claim to be superior in your moral views? Of course you do, or you wouldn't have them. Well, so do I. Who's right?

Are you next going to say it's ok to burn women at the stake, if they refuse your selfish sexual advances and say it's ok in some religions?
I really hope you reconsider your position.
I didn't say anything. I simply stated historic fact.

Lol, if you say so, of course you would be wrong. Either that or you have a very low expectation of an RPG or maybe your using some new PR bullshit definition?
You just hang on to your limited and narrow-minded views of what a good game is and how consoles will never be more than a kid's toy. Read the posts on elitism in this thread. You are a perfect example of this.

I know you will just mock me when I say it, but I did like the dialogue and quests in Oblivion. Amazing, isn't it? Different opinions?

Lol, right you want to play an action game, called an RPG.
Right, and of course you wouldn't call the Final Fantasies RPG's. That's just the way you are. Who cares what they're called anyway? Do you want a bumper sticker that says: "I ONLY LIKE *REAL* cRPG'S, SO THERE!" or something?
Last edited by Thaurin; December 14th, 2007 at 11:28.
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December 14th, 2007, 15:19
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
Originally Posted by Thaurin
A good example of this to me is slavery. Most people nowadays would say slavery is evil. However, a long time ago (and not so long ago) it was perfectly acceptable to keep slaves and was even regulated by law. These people did not think it was evil.
Your joking I hope, if not you seriously need something, since I don't know you I couldn't say but you really need to talk to more people.
If you want to test yourself on this, just to make sure your right, ask yourself this question what are you basing this on?
"Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. "

Article I, section 2, original US constitution. "… all other Persons" were the slaves.

"No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due."

Article IV, section 2, original US constitution. "No Person held to Service or Labour in one State…" were the slaves.

So, were the framers of the US Constitution evil men?
Last edited by BillSeurer; December 17th, 2007 at 18:40. Reason: Oops, quotes were goofed…
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December 15th, 2007, 02:28
I'm afraid no answer willl ever be forthcoming. I shouldn't care, but I take issue with ignorant arrogance.
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December 15th, 2007, 02:55
Cognitive dissonance is fun to watch. Not so fun to experience.

Did you know George Washington inherited 10 slaves, but owned 316 at the time of his death?
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