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RPGWatch Forums » Games » The Witcher Games » The Witcher » Omg, the GM is *****, no he's not, yes he is! (MAJOR spoilage!)

Default Omg, the GM is *****, no he's not, yes he is! (MAJOR spoilage!)

January 10th, 2008, 08:37
SPOILERS from endgame!

Time for more fun with The Witcher? Need you ask or put another way the moderators are still letting me start posts, suckers!

So, what's up next, if you guessed Clones and Time Travel give yourself a .
That's right did you know Alvin is a Time Traveling Clone? No? No? Well then you aren't paying attention as this is one of the biggest topics of discussion on the official forums, with at least 5 threads some reaching up to 17 pages and some of these from people who have read the books.

First lets start with the who and what of things, this gives us Alvin escaping/teleporting/time traveling, depending on your position in chapter 4 and the GM appearing in chapter 5 to save Geralt to payback a debt of Geralt saving him.

Second we have the GM projecting himself into Geralt's mind, reading his thoughts, trying to take control and creating a possible vision of the future based on the prophecy OR bringing Geralt's conscious and subconscious into his mind, while reading it, creating the possible future vision based on the prophecy, IN either case Geralt can die for real in the game.

Third we have the GM dying with a Dimeritium Amulet Geralt gave Alvin or one like it, again depending on your position and Geralt mentioning he could have been known by another name.

To get this going I will post an excerpt from a reader of the books and Time Travel proponent, hopefully we can figure out what's going on.

This is a long post and can be confusing if you don't follow Time Travel but it's 3 different possible timelines, so don't think it's all one explanation, just in case you are half awake as I am most of the time.
Spoiler


This seems well thought out and well written, does most everyone agree with Conn?

Trust me, most of the names I have been called you can't translate in any language…they're not even real words as much as a succession of violent images.
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January 17th, 2008, 07:02
Ahh, no one has thoughts on the clone, time traveling theories?

Well afai have heard, according to the books Teleportation is a reactionary response, out of some trauma or tragedy, i.e Alvin was terrified.

Secondly there seems to be no real benefit to the theory of Teleporting, i.e. if the GM was Alvin why send a clone back in time, when he could go himself.

Most importantly if he could do this why not just create an army of himself, a Source powered army instead of using all these lesser beings whom have the doubts and emotions he feels is necessary to genetically modify out of human beings so he can save them?

Lastly, just the fact that all untrained Source children are given these amulets and some like Alvin can clearly Teleport which iirc was talked about in the game. While Time Travel is a rare existence nor was it ever a topic in the game. So it would be a rather cheep Deus Ex for the developers to say; haha Alvin can Time Travel so the whole first game really didn't happen it was only one possible future and really only happened in someones head.

Trust me, most of the names I have been called you can't translate in any language…they're not even real words as much as a succession of violent images.
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January 17th, 2008, 19:18
Ah, the ending… reminded me of that from "The Shadow and the Flame", as well as Wells' "Time Machine".

To me it is pretty sure that the GM is Alvin himself (noting more, nothing less) who teleported into the past when we last saw him in Murky Waters.

The more interesting questions are whether the entire story about the prophecy coming true was
a) made up to psych Geralt out
b) true to the GM because of his visions, but not certain
c) really the future, which he visited

While a) is the common "bad mind-bending mage" choice, it is not too consistent with Alvin.
I have no doubt that he was really convinced. Magic is described to drive some people mad, and having those visions from childhood certainly affected him. His choice of a "solution" was -from our point of view- an immoral one and worthy of being opposed. But was he evil? Is it the Witcher himself who is to blame, because he told him to use his gift for what he thinks is good? Was killing him nothing but a regrettable, yet necessary move?
What if he really HAD seen the future, because he learned to time-travel at will? (He does talk about "being in the right place at the right time") What if it WAS the best solution? To what point does a moral choice in the present outweigh greater sacrifices in the future?

Again, it all comes down to very personal judgement.
- Which is why I found the "monster sword" ending a little too biased. They should have left this choice to the players… maybe even to side with him.
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January 18th, 2008, 17:10
Ok, I have noticed one small possible clue that the GM is Alvin. Noticed the dog in the castle just before the last battle stuff. The game did a closeup on it. Now since all the dogs look alike……….take it any way you want. It was just a thought I had. lol

Bart and Corwin should just admit that when it gets down to it, I will have the final say.
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January 18th, 2008, 20:08
Originally Posted by Vio View Post
- Which is why I found the "monster sword" ending a little too biased. They should have left this choice to the players… maybe even to side with him.
Siding with "New Order"? Perish the thought!
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January 18th, 2008, 21:11
So it would be a rather cheep Deus Ex for the developers to say; haha Alvin can Time Travel so the whole first game really didn't happen it was only one possible future and really only happened in someones head.
No, the past cannot be changed, Alvin was always the Grand Master, as in, he always goes back in time and becomes Jacques, it's not a possible future but the only future for him.
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January 19th, 2008, 17:48
> Siding with "New Order"? Perish the thought!

The question is: Is he a monster?
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January 19th, 2008, 22:55
Was Heinrich Himmler a monster?
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January 20th, 2008, 13:57
We are not talking about Heinrich Himmler.
Unless Alvin traveled through time and space to impersonate him, too.
Last edited by Vio; January 20th, 2008 at 14:23.
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January 20th, 2008, 17:57
LOL Vio, similarities are striking though…
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January 21st, 2008, 18:19
If you think so name them, but please don't digress.
This is about the possibility of Alvin KNOWING the future.
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January 21st, 2008, 22:27
III Reich which was supposed to last 1000 years? Alvin's knowledge of the future was equaly shaky. He thought he saw visions of distant future but failed to see his death in not so distant one.
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January 22nd, 2008, 00:24
We don't know that.

After seeing the Squirrel ending I see how you got a much worse picture of the Order in general. And I'm not saying he's good, but just assume he wasn't totally mad. I think it makes it more interesting than having an "utterly bad guy" after all.
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January 22nd, 2008, 05:36
Well, either he haven't foresaw his death or was mad enough not to care? Why go through with the New Order scheme knowing that it was all in vain? Unless he simply enjoyed the process…
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January 24th, 2008, 15:16
Maybe he didn't check the consequence of every single action?
Apart from that, that's not the point.

Anyone else?
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July 20th, 2008, 11:52
Just finished the game. The ending is really intriguing, but really, what happened? The discussion about the final cut scene spanned more than 30 pages on the official forum. Time travel? clone? isn't that sound a little way off?
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July 22nd, 2008, 08:24
Well, I side with those who think that GM was Alvin. In Sapkowski's books Ciri (on whom Alvin is clearly based) is also a Source and is capable of teleporting through space and time on regular basis.
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December 2nd, 2008, 07:13
Just finished the game myself. Wow, what an ending. Not sure what to think about all this, but I personally found the "monster sword" quote to be very fitting. I sided with the Order in my playthrough, and found the arguements on both sides to have a ring of truth.

I just have one question about the theories proposed by the first post in this thread - The game makes it clear why the King of the Wild Hunt wants Geralt around (because death follows him), but what purpose would the Wild Hunt have in thwarting the Grand Master's plans?… I mean, why bother bringing Geralt back at a specific point to set in motion those things?

Oh and one more thing: Would the presence of Alvin in the same time period as the GM suggest a clone, or rather the same being occupying the same plane of existence simultaneously (as in the Back to the Future movies). - I personally don't buy the idea of the GM being able to 'clone' himself… and again, to what end? That just doesn't make sense.

From what limited Witcher knowledge I have, the Conjunction of the Spheres suggests that there are multiple planes of existence (alternate universes) that somehow got crossed. - That introduced humans and monsters into the realm previously inhabited by the elder races. Why couldn't Alvin simply be a product of the same event? - He is Alvin in one parallel universe, and the GM in another. In fact, based on that foundation, it would make more sense to me that Alvin is not able to travel through 'time', but rather, able to travel from one universe to another.

..& so they take the fiction all out of the Jabberwock & I recognize & accept him as a fact. - Mark Twain, May 30, 1880
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December 2nd, 2008, 10:52
On the second play-through i stay neutral and slaughtered both GM and the King of WildHunt for spouting nonsense. Then in the last cut-scene the slaughtered assassin i believe was Alvin from the future.
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December 2nd, 2008, 14:24
Another thing… Iirc the bestiary mentions that SkullHeads ( the monsters you encounter in the Epilogue) were actually prehistoric beasts, meaning they came and went a long time ago. Could it be that what the GM took as being the future was actually visions of the past?

..& so they take the fiction all out of the Jabberwock & I recognize & accept him as a fact. - Mark Twain, May 30, 1880
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