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May 13th, 2008, 02:40
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
I'm going to be a smarty and say that vinegar was being too kind right from the get-go.
I agree. It's really hard to resist such a hook . In all fairness, I haven't made it into one of the dungeons yet.
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May 13th, 2008, 02:44
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I didn't say "impossible" so stop misquoting me, I said "almost", and it is.
I've seen W&W offered on amazon with the warning: Does not run under Windows XP! At least the seller is aware that it's a problem.
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May 13th, 2008, 05:03
Originally Posted by Turjan View Post
I've seen W&W offered on amazon with the warning: Does not run under Windows XP! At least the seller is aware that it's a problem.

I don't think it's WinXP by itself, but rather a combination of XP and newer video cards and drivers. It also doesn't seem to like any Direct X later than DX 8.
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May 13th, 2008, 09:04
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Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
but the forced multiclassing adept/fighter/paladin/samurai/crusader/war witch combinations are ludicrous and paper-thin. Sure, you can create some bizarre multi thief/samurai bastardisation but it makes absolutely no sense
Dude. DL is not about making sense. If you want multi-classing that hews to some objective sense of RPG "sense", play a D&D game. DL is about fun. That's all.

Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
and there's no depth in any of the classes.
Au contraire. The classes you choose make a big difference in how your character plays and what they can achieve. Don't underestimate the value of the learning bonuses and new skill access. You can build very different characters around what the classes give you access to and what they make easier to learn.

Originally Posted by Ionstormsucks View Post
don't know why, but I liked the artwork…
+1 to that, my friend. Two of the greatly under appreciated aspects of this game, IMHO, are the art design and the monster design. And I think Mike does the game a disservice to keep characterizing the AI behavior as all the same. Not so. Most of the monsters have unique behaviors, which I always found enjoyable. Sure, you can oversimplify and say they all mob you, but I think that's a bit lazy. There really is a significant difference in how the slimes attack you versus how the goblins attack you versus how a giant spider gang attacks you versus how the homicidal and toothy mushrooms attack you, versus how the zombies attack you versus how the Demigoth bandit gangs attack you, etc. One of the subtle joys of this game is the nuances of the tactical combat.

A couple of niggles with Mike's re-review:

- I do believe that the CE does NOT let you advance a class regardless of requirements met. I think that's just a "feature" of the non-CE version.

- While Mike is correct that the game is combat-heavy and if you don't like the way it handles combat early on, you won't like the game, I disagree that it's all the same. IMO, the game is good at presenting you with changing tactical combat challenges as things progress. The monster design, environments and skill choices are a great combination for tactical combat variety. I won't claim that every encounter is unique, but there is plenty of ways to skin the cat. It's not all the same.

- Using a skill will also decrease the cost for the next level. It's not just Intelligence based. So the dumb brute that constantly beats things on the head as a way to solve problems will find it easier to advance the "beating things on the head" skill than a mage that does little or none of the same. Granted, Intelligence has a greater effect and Mike's point on this is well taken, it still doesn't paint the whole picture accurately. Btw, race also impacts some skill and attribute advancement costs.

- Mike makes it sound like if you get a powerful enough comp, the stutter problem goes away. Sadly, this is not true. The game will always stutter at what seems to be the new zone loading point.

- While the spawning in dungeons is annoying, as Mike rightfully points out, if you crank the rate down to it's lowest level, it's not so bad out in the wilds where you expect an encounter every now and then.

- Mike neglects to mention Bash as an alternative to spending skill points to open locks and chests. Again, if you're playing the brute strength type, you can just smash the sh*t open.

- If you like aRPGs and you can get the Collector's Editions at a bargain price, you'd be foolish not to do so.

- I strongly disagree that a successful franchise can not be built on the foundation of DL. Of course we're not talking the code base, but the ideas. There are several solid ones here (deep tactical combat, advance points, class system, monster design, art design, dungeon design, free multi-player dungeon romping…) that are begging to be advanced in the context of higher quality controls and more than a shoestring team and budget.
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May 13th, 2008, 09:20
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I don't think it's WinXP by itself, but rather a combination of XP and newer video cards and drivers. It also doesn't seem to like any Direct X later than DX 8.
The only old games I havent managed to make work (all old total war games) faulted because of newer graphics card and drivers (I changed from ATi 800xl to 8800GTS 640).

W&W is propably in the same boat as these games:

I have the perfect fix i have taken out my 8800gts and put in an ati 9800xt and COSSACKS - ROME TOTAL WAR - SHOGUN TOTAL WAR AND MEDIEVAL TOTAL WAR all run perfectly, after six month of waiting nvidia still couldnt fix this they say the problem is with the games well ati do not seem to have any trouble i am one happy cossack no thanks to nvidia.
Buy another (old) card or wait for new nvidia drivers (if they ever even intend to fix this).

This is apparently suppose to work for total war:
Try the 174.20 drivers (get them from Guru3d), and update DirectX (geez, I'm posting this a lot, lately). Just make sure to set the driver for Medieval to Single GPU, or you may be unable to force V-Sync, and will crash. The game will work great. . . .
EDIT: The new nvidia drivers (NVIDIA GeForce 175.16) released today are suppose to fix bugs with games.
Last edited by zakhal; May 13th, 2008 at 20:17.
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May 14th, 2008, 04:39
Hi chamr! I'm glad you stopped to read and comment. I obviously couldn't present a fully comprehensive report on everything so I had to generalize. Heck, even with my 6/10 review scores I have been called an 'apologist' more than a couple of times …

Originally Posted by chamr View Post
- While Mike is correct that the game is combat-heavy and if you don't like the way it handles combat early on, you won't like the game, I disagree that it's all the same. IMO, the game is good at presenting you with changing tactical combat challenges as things progress.
That is true to an extent - there are a few behaviors: ranged, dancing and suicidal. OK, that is too harsh, but those generally define the classes: mages and archers behave the same, keeping clear and lobbing crap at you in the hopes that the next mob-spawn will occur before you kill them. The bulk of 'monster types' just mob you as you cut them down. And decent melee fighters will do some AI work to stay alive longer. The problem is the spawning - and I know you suggest turning down the spawn rate, but I just see that entire mechanic as a glaring weakness in the design.

Originally Posted by chamr View Post
- Mike makes it sound like if you get a powerful enough comp, the stutter problem goes away. Sadly, this is not true. The game will always stutter at what seems to be the new zone loading point.
I say that in deference to those who have said that it goes away. Even on my brand new laptops (top of line MacBook Pro and Dell XPS 1730) I get some minor lag even when monsters spawn, and definitely when it 'zone loads'.

Originally Posted by chamr View Post
- Mike neglects to mention Bash as an alternative to spending skill points to open locks and chests. Again, if you're playing the brute strength type, you can just smash the sh*t open.
Yeah, but that takes time as well - and by the time you're a mega-brute the chest should just open right up for you. As for mages … still out of luck because there is no 'knock' spell. My problem is that I cannot ignore any loot pile (picture me in NWN!) …

Originally Posted by chamr View Post
- I strongly disagree that a successful franchise can not be built on the foundation of DL. Of course we're not talking the code base, but the ideas.
There is some core of interesting stuff, but the amount of rework seems terribly large. And if the existing game sold 1 million, where is the incentive to toss the hackneyed story and monster spawn model and empty world and do better? As was said, there is no confirmation of who is even involved - but I'm pretty sure Heuristic Park tanked in '06.

— Mike
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May 14th, 2008, 06:32
Originally Posted by chamr View Post
Au contraire. The classes you choose make a big difference in how your character plays and what they can achieve. Don't underestimate the value of the learning bonuses and new skill access. You can build very different characters around what the classes give you access to and what they make easier to learn.
You're not quite responding to the exact point but I wouldn't want to underestimate anything.

Say…I want to build a specialist heavy fighter. Please pick a build and tell me the new skills I have access to as I add each class to demonstrate this depth.

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May 16th, 2008, 07:43
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I have talked to others who have tried to run it on WinXP+ SP2 and I haven't found a single person yet who got it to work properly.
Hey, what am I an orc? I'm a person. Remember I tried to help you get it running in the wizardry 4 thread. There are people that did get that one going on XP SP2 but it took a hack, a grahics patch and some kind of decompiler thingie. I'm sorry to hear that you could never get it running. Oh well, maybe when you buy a new computer the hardware will be kinder to older games

Anyways, as for Dungeon Lords I'm just glad I wasn't the only one that bought that game twice and I totally agree with TX's assement of the game. I only passed it once but it was fun, just not a game with a deep plot. Also DW never did fix some of the alchemy spells even in the CE edition.

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May 16th, 2008, 07:58
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
You're not quite responding to the exact point
Huh? You said, "and there's no depth in any of the classes." That's a pretty broad condemnation, to which I responded that there was depth. How is that "not quite responding to the exact point"?

Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
Say…I want to build a specialist heavy fighter. Please pick a build and tell me the new skills I have access to as I add each class to demonstrate this depth.
OK. While I smell a setup here, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

1st Tier
Fighter - gives you important learning bonuses to all armor, shield and weapon skills.

Adept - gives you additional learning bonuses to Lt Armor and Med Armor to get you started, and gives you access to Magic Weaponry so you can light all the fireworks that come with a good magic weapon. Also gives learning bonuses to Celestial magic for some handy healing spells.

2nd Tier
Celestial - gives learning bonus to magic weaponry so you can make use of the highest level magic weapons. Mainly pick this class, though, to get to the 3rd Tier class that requires it.

Valkyrie - gives access to Heavy Armor, Heavy Weapons, and Heavy Pole arms, while adding even more learning bonuses to all weapons, pole arms, armor and shield, making the highest requirements in any of these areas attainable without having to kill 100 dragons to amass enough advance points.

3rd Tier
Stargazer - more learning bonuses to Magic Weaponry while giving you access to the all important Iron Will skill. Also throws in the nice little +15% Celestial magic bonus to boost your healing spells and a +4 parry to help your defense through the 3rd Tier class heraldry, The Watcher.

So now you've built a heavy fighter specializing in heavy magic pole arms while wearing heavy armor and having boosted healing to account for the fact that you will get hit more often due to the slow attack speed of pole arms but also making you immune to interruption while executing the all important combo strikes that, with a high level magic pole arm, lay the serious smack down on opponents. You've removed excessive advance point expenditure barriers from being able to use the best heavy armor and heavy pole arms of the highest magic weapon level by emphasizing and synergizing the right learning bonuses throughout your class selection.

A few changes and you can have a dual-weapons heavy fighter. Or a classic tank. Or a pole arm specialist that depends on speed rather than Iron Will. Or…
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May 16th, 2008, 10:07
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
Hey, what am I an orc? I'm a person. Remember I tried to help you get it running in the wizardry 4 thread. There are people that did get that one going on XP SP2 but it took a hack, a grahics patch and some kind of decompiler thingie. I'm sorry to hear that you could never get it running. Oh well, maybe when you buy a new computer the hardware will be kinder to older games

I've tried all of those things without success, what video card were you using at the time?

I would bow down in awe to any person who could get W&W to run on my system.
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May 16th, 2008, 11:29
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
Say…I want to build a specialist heavy fighter. Please pick a build and tell me the new skills I have access to as I add each class to demonstrate this depth.
I built a similar heavy fighter by going fighter/adept to paladin (dont remember the exact name of the classes involved). Worked pretty well, but my gfs caster was way more effective towards the end of the game and ended up with 15% more XP thanks to the nasty area spells.

I'd probably get a Dungeon Lords 2 with somewhat improved MP mechanics (being able to heal other party members early in the game would have been nice). The game was fun as an action game but pretty crap as a RPG. As you say the class combinations dont make much sense at all, but they do give nice flexibility in building the char compared to many straight class based systems.
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May 17th, 2008, 00:23
Chamr…working this weekend…tired and a bit cranky. I'll try to provide a genuine response without a set up when I can, although the obvious short answer is that we see it differently and won't agree.

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June 27th, 2008, 20:56
Best looking goblins in any game of this genre and some great dungeon crawling. If some of the more glaring tech issues had been resolved and the "missing" content added, I would have enjoyed this game more.

The spawning was outrageous. At normal levels it was difficult to to cover long distances without multiple confrontations, and turned down, they would become almost non-existent. No real middle ground. I can't count how many pre-patch times (no map) I had to fight off packs of wolves just to find myself suddenly going the wrong way and having to run all the way back again.

Good concept and visuals, great combat, but over-all more frustrating than fun.

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