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Default Fallout 3 - Full Skill List

July 8th, 2008, 12:15
I find the idea that somebody who still had hopes for a game but suddenly lost it all because it has no Steal funny, as if that would be a deciding factor of when a game is fun.
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July 8th, 2008, 13:02
Steal was incredibly unbalanced too, especially in FO2.

Instant non-cheating godmode in FO2:

(1) Tag Steal and Big Guns.
(2) Trek to New California Republic.
(3) Steal a Big Gun from one of the guards in green camo.
(4) Profit!

That said, these latest rumbles do sound like Bethsoft is not really doing the franchise justice. Personally I couldn't care less about first-person vs iso, real-time vs turn-based; however, I do care about the enormous variety of ways to solve problems, the deep and rich interaction of consequences of your actions and character-building choices, and the viability of the "Charisma Boy" build (in FO1; FO2 already was way more combat-heavy). Going by the interviews, these things have mostly fallen by the wayside. Shame, dat.
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July 8th, 2008, 13:21
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
What's up with the whole child killing anyway? Why are people always bringing up that question when asking about RPGs?

I completely agree with Bethesda - keep that sort of thing out of games.

Not me.

It just makes my day to be able to tear the spinal cord out of an 8-year old.
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July 8th, 2008, 13:50
The UK version of fallout2 didnt have them because just before the release of the game lots of children died in som accident. So they removed from the game.

But other versions of fallout2 did have kids - and even the original wasteland had a whole scout camp full of kids that you could slaughter if you wanted. The game even has an event where if you fall into the stream the kids come out and start laughing and throwing rocks at you like they were asking for it.

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Last edited by zakhal; July 8th, 2008 at 14:11.
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July 8th, 2008, 14:01
"Steal was incredibly unbalanced too, especially in FO2.

Instant non-cheating godmode in FO2:

(1) Tag Steal and Big Guns.
(2) Trek to New California Republic.
(3) Steal a Big Gun from one of the guards in green camo.
(4) Profit!"

There were lots of ways you could abuse quests/game mechanics in FO(2) if you played it before. Tag Outdoorsman, go to Navarro, get powered armor + big amounts of exp. The rest of the game is a cakewalk. That is no argument for removal of skills.
Less skills means less options, less options mean less RPGing, imho, less RPGing in an RPG = Bethesda.

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July 8th, 2008, 14:20
Originally Posted by jdhfoqwzr View Post
There were lots of ways you could abuse quests/game mechanics in FO(2) if you played it before. Tag Outdoorsman, go to Navarro, get powered armor + big amounts of exp. The rest of the game is a cakewalk. That is no argument for removal of skills.
I disagree. I'd much rather have fewer, but better balanced and better fleshed-out skills than more, but crappily balanced and superficially implemented ones.

Which isn't to say that this is what Bethsoft is doing with FO3, of course.

Less skills means less options, less options mean less RPGing, imho, less RPGing in an RPG = Bethesda.
OTOH unbalanced skills = dominant strategies = fewer *viable* options = less real choice = less RPGing in an RPG.

Having lots of badly-done skills *reduces* choice in a game. Either they're useless (i.e. nobody chooses them, so they might as well not be there) or they're overpowered (i.e., nobody chooses anything else, so the other skills might as well not be there).

Very few games actually manage to balance skills well enough not to fall into one of these traps. FO1 was exceptionally good in this respect, but FO2 was as bad as most games out there.

IMO, though, the gold standard in this respect is Deus Ex: every skill in it was useful without any of them being unbalancing; you could develop your character in several different ways (heavy weapons/sniper rifle/melee-with-infiltration, etc.), and the game experience was exquisitely balanced, but completely different every time.
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July 8th, 2008, 15:20
Originally Posted by Thaurin View Post
I find the idea that somebody who still had hopes for a game but suddenly lost it all because it has no Steal funny, as if that would be a deciding factor of when a game is fun.
Yet it can be so.
First, I always play a thief archetype in all RPGs if possible and removing such possibility seriously lowers the chances I can like the game.

This is personal, but there's another thing. The absence of Steal and notes that Repair is for repairing armor and weapons inevitably drives me to conclusion that "multiple quest solutions" fall into Bioware-like 4 options: kill everyone, sneak and kill few, talk youur way as a bad or as a good guy. Lots of people out there(on the Codex, for example) despise Bioware for such simplicity. I'm not that radical and still love their games because they are great storytellers and it's fun following the plot even if the twists are often predictable. Bethesda, on the other hand, has proven to be terrible storytellers.

That being said, some people point out that pickpocket is combined with sneak. That just makes my despair useless
Last edited by drum; July 8th, 2008 at 15:33.
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July 8th, 2008, 15:29
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
Having lots of badly-done skills *reduces* choice in a game. Either they're useless (i.e. nobody chooses them, so they might as well not be there) or they're overpowered (i.e., nobody chooses anything else, so the other skills might as well not be there).
Not every player is a munchkin or metagamer. Lots of people play tech types in Arcanum even though they'll never get Disintegrate

Although what you're saying certainly has a point. Joining Doctor and First Aid into medicine is definitely a good thing. It's just that we know how Beth likes to cut off something "useless" based on their flagship TES series…
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July 8th, 2008, 16:05
Originally Posted by drum View Post
Not every player is a munchkin or metagamer.
I doubt so, when I look at games like D2 which not only cater, but rather even teach people that it is not only possible, but also very good to have the finest stuff …

There are more than enough people running around who just want to impress everyone else with their 1337 stuff.

Personally, I assume that games like D2 are so popular because they cater all these desires of the masses who want them - good weapons, good armor, incredible stuff which makes all others fall to their knees and brabble "OMG …"

I fear that it's the mases who want to be all-powerful - and therefore be Munchkins and Power-Gamer.

I fear that the ones who play "according to the rules" are in the minority in a world where games give the chance to deliver everything (in terms of in-game items).

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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July 9th, 2008, 00:20
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Not me.

It just makes my day to be able to tear the spinal cord out of an 8-year old.
Perhaps surprisingly, I agree. In the characters I overwhelmingly play I would defend them to the death - but would applaud the inclusion of such an option.

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July 9th, 2008, 00:50
The choice of defending them to the death is meaningless if the game doesn't let you make any other choice. Making children invulnerable does do that.

OTOH I can see that it's just not possible to make a (major) game that lets you kill children — especially with loving first-person gory detail. Just remember the flap over the PG-rated sex scene in Mass Effect, and imagine the field day video-game haters would have.
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July 9th, 2008, 05:57
i think if there is one thing that should be off limits period in games, movies, etc. is the abilty to abuse, murder, or harm in any way children. go ahead and have anything else…but really you can say i'm pointing fingers but anyone who wants to justify that 'freedom' is a sick fuck.

is there nothing innocent left in the world not worth defiling…

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July 9th, 2008, 10:16
Originally Posted by curiously undead View Post
i think if there is one thing that should be off limits period in games, movies, etc. is the abilty to abuse, murder, or harm in any way children. go ahead and have anything else…but really you can say i'm pointing fingers but anyone who wants to justify that 'freedom' is a sick fuck.
My, that was rather judgmental of you. Seems like there are a quite a few of us sick fucks here.

is there nothing innocent left in the world not worth defiling…
Probably not, but at least there's no shortage of sanctimony.
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July 9th, 2008, 12:16
Bioshock got away with the child killing stuff but they twisted it a little and didn't let you see the kind of graphic (comical) violence that fallout tends to offer.

My opinion is that after the troubles Bethesda had with simple breasts in Oblivion you won't be seeing a mod tool for fallout 3 because you know people will patch child killing back in.
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July 9th, 2008, 12:25
Fallouts aren't the only games that include cruelty to children. Dwarf Fortress is one — it has extremely gruesome depictions of violence, and doesn't differentiate between children and adults. What's more, child-snatching goblins are central to it — not only are they something you have to defend against in Dwarf Mode, they're crucial to the generated quests and plots in Adventure Mode, and indeed the cultural dynamics of the world.

And hey, even Jade Empire had it.

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July 9th, 2008, 12:59
It's all down to profile and perception. I'm finding it hard to think of a FPS that actually had you pulling the trigger and being able to shoot kids. Just like any form of visual entertainment when it hits a certain level of profit & (press) attention it'll come under much more scrutiny. That's why you don't see kids in GTA because it'll be so much more examined before it's allowed to go out to the general public. Dwarf Fortress won't come under such measures because it's under the mainstream and the graphical detail isn't as 'shocking' to the censors/press/public.
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July 9th, 2008, 13:38
Originally Posted by Prime Junta View Post
OTOH I can see that it's just not possible to make a (major) game that lets you kill children — especially with loving first-person gory detail. Just remember the flap over the PG-rated sex scene in Mass Effect, and imagine the field day video-game haters would have.
Just what I was thinking - with today's extensive media coverage of major titles, minor gameplay elements get quickly blown out of proportion. We all know that Mass Effect is a filthy sex game, obviously FO3 would be labeled a sick child murdering game for psychopaths.

I agree with the sentiment that when they are unkillable, there's no incentive to try and keep them alive (since they are immortal anyway). And in that case, if children are such an element that prohibits suspension of disbelief, the developers could just as well leave kids out of the game or show them only in cutscenes or so where it makes no difference.

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July 9th, 2008, 14:19
I normally don't go around protecting regular NPCs either. Having kids you can't kill as a player by simply shooting them, doesn't mean they can't die as part of a quest or get killed by other NPCs. It's still possible to involve children in quests, but you just won't be able to blast their heads off.

I still don't see why people want child killing in a game. Involve kids in some dramatic quest, sure, but random killing is just plain.. wrong. It's like having random raping of any female NPC you come across.
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July 9th, 2008, 14:53
exactly. when in reality is killing a child acceptable under any circumstances or anyones moral code? why should it be in a game. i guess for those who want it, we shouldn't be supprised when an mmo comes out where you can go on 'raids' and gang rape a bunch of six graders. its just a game…uhhuh

tormenting spirits of children is just about the same as blowing a childs brains out or 'ripping their spinal cord our'?

The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.
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July 9th, 2008, 15:07
Some people like their entertainment to be darker that's fairly plain to see.
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