The UK is crumbling

Seems like there is nothing but bad news on the horizon for this former world-spanning empire. The British Prime Minister has recently managed to anger the rest of the EU by refusing to sign the fiscal discipline agreement. London has virtually turned into a Arab/Paki/African mish-mash playground. The quality of life in the UK generally seems to be dropping as 1984-esque laws are being put into place, largely as a dysfunctional response to the aforementioned problem. And now Scotland is planning on declaring independence.

The devolved Government of Scotland is very intent on restoring Scotland as an independent country, which it used to be around 300 years ago. A referendum will be held a couple of years from now among the Scots, asking whether or not Scotland should continue as a sovereign nation. I assume if the secessionists succeed, Scotland will follow the example of Ireland, and enter the EU as an independent republic. Interestingly enough, a greater percentage of Englishmen would support a divorce between the UK and Scotland than of the Scots themselves.

If this initiative comes to fruition, the UK will be composed solely of England, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Predictably, the Westminster parliament is strictly against this notion. Progress of Scottish independence.

:incline:

I guess the United Kingdom might really become "ununited" again in a few hundred years.

My personal impression was of the Scots being very proud and nationalistic of their country. But that's just my personal impression, I don't know how "they" are "in reality", so to say.

As usual, if the economy is bad then secessionists/nationalists/xenophobes(not saying they're all the same thing) raise their heads and manage to convince people of their cause, that independence will make that part better and so on.

Scottish independence would be horrible for them, at least in the short to medium run. They receive a disproportionate level of social welfare and revenues from their north sea oil is declining.

Pladio said:

As usual, if the economy is bad

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Hm, I rather believe they would have done it regardless - during the next few decades.

There are some politics in operation here, Scotland is a more left wing country than the rest of the UK (it has only one Conservative MP) so support for further devolution/independence is high at the moment when the UK is led by the Conservative/Liberal coalition.

Support for Scottish independence amongst English folk is perhaps best explained by this chart. Effectively the rest of the Union is subsidised by England.



I agree blatantninja, I think it is a foolish step for Scotland to take for the reasons you give. Unfortunately some Scots (not all) may vote for independence for various bad reasons including historical anti-English sentiment.

Glyphwright said:

London has virtually turned into a Arab/Paki/African mish-mash playground.

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I would probably read whole of your post if I haven't stumbled upon this xenophobic remark early on. I stopped being interested all of a sudden...

My life has lost all meaning (due to zarathustra's lack of interest which was the only thing that ever mattered to me). I mean could say I'm a bit tired of hearing about gangs of professional robbers who "commit up to 12 robberies a day" on the TV which inexplicably turn out to be composed of the aforementioned groups, which then get off the hook even if they do get to court, all because of blind mush-brained idiotheads who do not see that importing waves of immigrants from the most impoverished, war-torn, unsuccessful, failed states this planet has to offer isn't a good idea… but you'll just clasp your ears and chant accusations of racism/xenophobia, aren't you.

Meh. Do I care?

Glyphwright said:

My life has lost all meaning. I mean could say I'm a bit tired of hearing about gangs of professional robbers who "commit up to 12 robberies a day" on the TV which inexplicably turn out to be composed of the aforementioned groups, which then get off the hook even if they do get to court, all because of blind mush-brained idiotheads who do not see that importing waves of immigrants from the most impoverished, war-torn, unsuccessful, failed states this planet has to offer isn't a good idea… but you'll just clasp your ears and chant accusations of racism/xenophobia, aren't you.

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What I always ask myself when I see someone express similiar sentiments is "good for who?"

Übereil

Since immigration is a process by which outsiders are brought into a subject society, I'd think it would clearly follow that "good for who [sic]" would and probably should refer to the subject society.

To me it seems awfully selfish to think a problem is solved just because it's not affecting you anymore. Which seems to be what "don't let foreign criminals in/throw foreign criminals out" ammounts to - those expressing such ideas seem to think the criminals are a problem only as long as they're committing crimes near them.

Übereil

coaster said:

There are some politics in operation here, Scotland is a more left wing country than the rest of the UK (it has only one Conservative MP) so support for further devolution/independence is high at the moment when the UK is led by the Conservative/Liberal coalition.

Support for Scottish independence amongst English folk is perhaps best explained by this chart. Effectively the rest of the Union is subsidised by England.

I agree blatantninja, I think it is a foolish step for Scotland to take for the reasons you give. Unfortunately some Scots (not all) may vote for independence for various bad reasons including historical anti-English sentiment.

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The Scots have a lot more to worry about than unifying with England. Having the whole of Europe sink into the crapper seems like a larger problem to me.

To me it seems awfully selfish to think a problem is solved just because it's not affecting you anymore. Which seems to be what "don't let foreign criminals in/throw foreign criminals out" ammounts to - those expressing such ideas seem to think the criminals are a problem only as long as they're committing crimes near them.

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By admitting foreign criminals/dysfunctional elements (welfare leeches, scammers, religious fanatics) into what is otherwise a very law-abiding society, failing to prosecute/punish them in any meaningful way, and prohibiting people from drawing attention to this issue you are making them your chronic unsolvable problem which may persist for centuries to come. Are you sure that making life harder and worse for the future generations is what your idea of selflessness demands?

Europe doesn't need to build an Iron Fence around itself, simply enforcing standards and paying attention to what kind of people you are giving the right to reside in your country for a long time would be common sense. College students with academic achievements = good. Random people with no employment and no skills = bad. People seeking to acquire professional skills and have a job = good. Drug dealers = bad. Etc. If a person is applying for permanent residence/citizenship and cannot prove they did a year's honest work in this country, have no education, no skills, and generally suck at life - don't give it to them. Despicable racism, I know, prepare the pitchforks.

Glyphwright said:

By admitting foreign criminals/dysfunctional elements (welfare leeches, scammers, religious fanatics) into what is otherwise a very law-abiding society, failing to prosecute/punish them in any meaningful way, and prohibiting people from drawing attention to this issue you are making them your chronic unsolvable problem which may persist for centuries to come. Are you sure that making life harder and worse for the future generations is what your idea of selflessness demands?

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First of all: the problem doesn't seem to be that you take them in, it seems to be that you take them in and then don't deal with them being there. In other words, taking in immigrants isn't a bad idea if done properly (even if they come from impoverished, war-torn, unsuccessful, failed states).

Second of all: Dumping them on their supposed home countries are going to ensure it's their chronic unsolvable problem. That's the selfish part of what I said.

Third of all: who's to deal with these pepole? You or their home country? Well, you probably have more resources you can use to deal with them. Which is why it's your responsibility, not their home country's. Sending them home won't solve the problem, it will just pass it on to someone who doesn't have your capacity when it comes to dealing with it.

Glyphwright said:

Europe doesn't need to build an Iron Fence around itself, simply enforcing standards and paying attention to what kind of people you are giving the right to reside in your country for a long time would be common sense. College students with academic achievements = good. Random people with no employment and no skills = bad. People seeking to acquire professional skills and have a job = good. Drug dealers = bad. Etc. If a person is applying for permanent residence/citizenship and cannot prove they did a year's honest work in this country, have no education, no skills, and generally suck at life - don't give it to them.

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What right do we have to deny them? And if we do have the right, why shouldn't we throw out our own criminals as well?

Übereil

why shouldn't we throw out our own criminals as well

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The concept of citizenship implies a permanent bond to the country, which can only be broken upon the wishes of the person in question.

In other words, taking in immigrants isn't a bad idea if done properly (even if they come from impoverished, war-torn, unsuccessful, failed states).

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Taking in decent people (educations, skills, jobs) who just happen to be from a failed state = yes. Taking in hordes of random people and hoping for the best = no.

Third of all: who's to deal with these pepole? You or their home country? Well, you probably have more resources you can use to deal with them. Which is why it's your responsibility, not their home country's.

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Responsibility doesn't work that way. Unless you're willing to tell me that, seeing as you are at least wealthy enough to own a computer and an internet connection, you believe you are responsible for all the homeless people that exist in the world, because you have the resources to support them. If so, I would like to know the exact number of homeless people currently living in your apartment/house.

Ubereil said:

And if we do have the right, why shouldn't we throw out our own criminals as well?

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See, when you put your mind to it, you do just fine. While deportation of citizens isn't really practical, you could lock them up for life (or perhaps even take a quicker and more permanent approach) to effectively segregate them from society. I just knew you'd see the light some day.

Glyphwright said:

If so, I would like to know the exact number of homeless people currently living in your apartment/house.

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Zero. If they're living with him, they aren't really, ya know, homeless.

Sorry, couldn't resist. Carry on.