GameBanshee - GotY 2010

Dhruin said:

Well, that's fair enough. Though I'm not sure why you seemed surprised at GameBanshee's nomination?

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So do you think if Interplay re-released Baldur's Gate every year then it would deserve a nomination every year?

Dhruin said:

I forgot to post GameBanshee's Game of the Year Awards, so head on over. They cover a number of different categories: Best Story/Writing (Alpha Protocol), Best Graphics (Age of Conan: Rise of the Godslayer), Best Sound/Music (Mass Effect 2), Best Expansion/DLC (WoW: Cataclysm), Most Anticipated (Witcher 2), Indie RPG of the Year (Din's Curse), Hybrid of the Year (ME2) and RPG of the Year (F: NV).
More information.

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For me Gamebanshee was really the RPG site exemplary to highlight the very special RPG not exempt of flaws but quite interesting anyway and rather underrated. I couldn't even say it's an influence because it's almost always through walkthrough that I discovered they was supporting this or this RPG. The list is rather long and surprising and you'll get it not from the DB but from the banshee network RPG list, Beyond Divinity, Divine Divinity, Dungeon Lords, Dungeon Siege II, Freedom Force, Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader, Temple of Elemental Evil.

But well it's past I don't think Gamebanshee is still what Gamebanshee was, the proof is simple they don't have Venetica in their list of supported RPG.

That's not only a joke I really think it's a clue, some more example, have D3 and not Torchlight or Alien Shooter 2, not have Drakensang: The River of Time even if they have Drakensang, no Eschalon Book 1&2.

Thrasher said:

So do you think if Interplay re-released Baldur's Gate every year then it would deserve a nomination every year?

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You mean the same engine and setting but with all-new story, quests and locations? Sure! If the quality of the content was good enough!

For me, the Great Portal being overrun by demons, the destruction of Cotra, searching out the Darkside Loyalists, discovering the link between the Slith Horde and the cultists, desperately trying to stealth through Slith Horde territory to sneak into the castle and assassinate xxx are all memorable moments, the equal of the better games I've played. That's worth a nomination for me.

Dasale said:

That's not only a joke I really think it's a clue, some more example, have D3 and not Torchlight or Alien Shooter 2, not have Drakensang: The River of Time even if they have Drakensang, no Eschalon Book 1&2.

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You're being a little unfair. Drakensang 2 has only just been released in NA and I'm sure Buck has higher priorities than Alien Shooter 2 - there's only so much manpower.

Dhruin said:

You mean the same engine and setting but with all-new story, quests and locations? Sure! If the quality of the content was good enough!

For me, the Great Portal being overrun by demons, the destruction of Cotra, searching out the Darkside Loyalists, discovering the link between the Slith Horde and the cultists, desperately trying to stealth through Slith Horde territory to sneak into the castle and assassinate xxx are all memorable moments, the equal of the better games I've played. That's worth a nomination for me.

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I guess new quests and story is not compelling enough for me, if I spend most of the time doing the same things again... A reason why I have yet to finish NWN 2 expansions/DLC, or the second half of World of Xeen...

Quests and story content are very important to me but I understand everyone is different. I'm usually quite allergic to repetition but I like Jeff's style.

I thought his handling of factions and their interactions was superb in Geneforge 5. And the G5 party building using the player's own creations was unique in my experience. A5 not nearly so much in either category.

Dasale said:

But well it's past I don't think Gamebanshee is still what Gamebanshee was, the proof is simple they don't have Venetica in their list of supported RPG.

That's not only a joke I really think it's a clue, some more example, have D3 and not Torchlight or Alien Shooter 2, not have Drakensang: The River of Time even if they have Drakensang, no Eschalon Book 1&2.

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Drakensang: The River of Time and Venetica are both 2011 titles as far as we're concerned. Similarly, Avernum 6 is a 2010 title for us while I think it was a 2009 title for the Watch because we have to wait for PC release. It's not an exact science, but it's what it is. I was still playing TRoT to review it while the GotY draft was going up, and am busily chipping away at a subsite for it right now. It'll come up in this year's awards, that I can guarantee.

I didn't like Torchlight. I couldn't get to Eschalon: Book 2 which is why for the sake of fairness we again had Jay do the indie segment (because he played way more indies than I or Jon or Steven did).

You got me on Alien Shooter 2 though.

DArtagnan said:

Why is ME2 a hybrid when NV isn't?

They both have weighty elements of other genres, most notably the shooter genre

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It's not an exact science. We like having a hybrid and "main" RPG category but everything's a hybrid nowadays really.

Still, it's not really the combat system that defines a game, in my opinion. You can have a fine RPG using any perspective and any combat system you like. But where New Vegas "seems to me" to be a title focused on choices, branching quests, player stats and fiddly systems like hardcore mode, Mass Effect is really about shooting and story. It's like a lot of the RPG elements are a cumbersome afterthought.

Obviously there's a lot of room for disagreement, but hey, that's true for the picks as well so why not let it be true for the categories too.

At least ME2 won best hybrid whereas its predecessor just won "most disappointing".

The irony reserved to Alien Shooter 2 isn't well used for someone from a site highlighting games like those I quoted, not that I'll make any irony about highlighting Dungeon Lords for example, but quite many could use a severe irony for such selection.

I know taste and colors... but have you really played it? The exploration is a lot better, the fights are better, even the story is better, better than Titan Quest.

Gamebanshee was unique for me because of questionable but very interesting RPG selections, not only a sign of interesting taste but a bit of valor of courage. I don't see any clue this spirit is still surviving.

Dasale said:

The irony reserved to Alien Shooter 2 isn't well used for someone from a site highlighting games like those I quoted, not that I'll make any irony about highlighting Dungeon Lords for example, but quite many could use a severe irony for such selection.

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What? I'm sorry but I can not make sense of this paragraph.

Dasale said:

I know taste and colors… but have you really played it? The exploration is a lot better, the fights are better, even the story is better, better than Titan Quest.

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Played taste and colors? If this is in reference to Torchlight, no. I played it for a couple of hours and moved on (played TQ to death tho). It wasn't my review assignment so not much reason to stick with it. Steven reviewed it and wasn't enthusiastic either, so all in all while it got its share of attention you can fairly say our editors just weren't impressed (not sure if Buck played it but he didn't mention it as a candidate in any category).

Dasale said:

Gamebanshee was unique for me because of questionable but very interesting RPG selections, not only a sign of interesting taste but a bit of valor of courage. I don't see any clue this spirit is still surviving.

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I'm unsure as to what exactly you're expecting that GB isn't doing anymore. Like I said, I'm working on a subsite for TRoT, we've given various European and indie RPGs (like Spiderweb's games, Eschalon, Frayed Knights, AoD, Dead State, TWII, Venetica, TRoT) their due coverage though there's always less to post on games with less PR. I'm unclear on what exactly we're lacking. Like I said, TRoT and Venetica are up for this year in awards, and Torchlight was considered and dismissed.

Dasale said:

I know taste and colors…

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Brother None said:

Played taste and colors?

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Is this a new RPG ?

An interesting name this is ...

I bet you both understood very well what I wrote, did there any mention of Torchlight in this post?

Anyway, let say I jump to conclusion too fast or it's more time change than site change. But well Gamebanshee broke at some points and multiple people contributing to it left. I never search the details nor care that much, but the point is that I feel it also broke the mood and tendencies of the site.

But well that's the hard life and consequences of trying to get enough money from some activity, in end it often leads you to different ways.

Brother None said:

Still, it's not really the combat system that defines a game, in my opinion. You can have a fine RPG using any perspective and any combat system you like. But where New Vegas "seems to me" to be a title focused on choices, branching quests, player stats and fiddly systems like hardcore mode, Mass Effect is really about shooting and story. It's like a lot of the RPG elements are a cumbersome afterthought.

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I really agree with this point. A lot of RPG fans seem to believe that a game can't be a "true RPG" if it isn't turn-based. I tend to believe that a "true RPG" allows you to literally "play a role" within a game world and is not dependent on the combat system; the combat can be anything and still be a "true RPG." To go off of your comparison, FO:NV allows you to "play a role" with real choices and consequences that affect the game world. Does it matter that they didn't use traditional combat? Not to me, but that's mostly because I'm open to new combat mechanics and don't really care what combat system is in place, so long as the combat is enjoyable and the game built around the combat allows you to impact the game world. Mass Effect, on the other hand, only gives the illusion of playing a role; there is no tangible choice and consequence mechanic except for one big decision at the very end of the game, and therefore it never feels like you are literally playing a role. The story is incredibly linear, regardless of your dialogue choices, and you have no effect on the gameworld. However, it does have some RPG mechanics, so labeling it as a hybrid is much more fair than labeling Fallout as a hybrid and not a "true RPG" simply because the combat is in real-time.

Dasale said:

I bet you both understood very well what I wrote, did there any mention of Torchlight in this post?

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No, honestly, I have no idea. I still don't. Sorry.

Dasale said:

Anyway, let say I jump to conclusion too fast or it's more time change than site change. But well Gamebanshee broke at some points and multiple people contributing to it left.

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I wouldn't know, I joined myself rather recently. I'm afraid I can't do much with criticism when you can't specifically name anything. You seem to be implying GB has grown more mainstream, which just makes all kind of no sense when you consider it started out from BG2.

Brother None said:

I wouldn't know, I joined myself rather recently. I'm afraid I can't do much with criticism when you can't specifically name anything. You seem to be implying GB has grown more mainstream, which just makes all kind of no sense when you consider it started out from BG2.

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If I remember well it's around 2006, and I doubt that quote you any names will tell you anything.

It's not more mainstream it's that a flawed RPG can be very fun and I don't mean a RPG with bugs, it's about taste and selection approach. But ok I can't list anything more concrete than what I already did. It's just that ok it's fine that Torchlight, Eschalon Book 1, Eschalon Book 2, Alien Shooter 2 was rejected because nobody in the team enjoy them enough, that's perfect. and I do agree no reproach are possible with this base.

But I wonder if anybody in current team would have select, Beyond Divinity, Dungeon Lords, Dungeon Siege I&II, Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader, Temple of Elemental Evil. Yeah it's pure speculation.

Nerevarine said:

I really agree with this point. A lot of RPG fans seem to believe that a game can't be a "true RPG" if it isn't turn-based…

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I doubt you'll find much RPG fans that affirm that.

Nerevarine said:

I tend to believe that a "true RPG" allows you to literally "play a role" within a game world and is not dependent on the combat system; the combat can be anything and still be a "true RPG."

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Most RPG fans will agree on that, at least on combat system part. Perhaps for the "play a role" part too but don't count me in.

Computer RPG are very far from pen and paper RPG because they have no human master to adapt the story and its evolution to players choices. So the player constantly face to limited series of choices and play a role in that condition seems to me quite tedious. But I don't have the good point of view because I don't care at all to play a role, I just want a good story, with some choices and add to that good fights and good exploration and you get a happy player, I mean myself.

Nerevarine said:

so labeling it as a hybrid is much more fair than labeling Fallout as a hybrid and not a "true RPG" simply because the combat is in real-time.

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The hybrid tag is a questionable point of view. If you evaluate the general mood from WRPG fans all around the world, you'll end with a rather precise list of features that a good RPG should have. There's a sort of common agreement not really formuled but quite concrete.

In a way this hybrid tag is a way to consider RPG not matching well the standard formula.

Myself I consider this as a fanatic and extreme point of view. Behind RPG tag there isn't a single definition, nor a single genre, but a myriad of genres. And yes I also consider that the classical RPG is the more fascinating RPG genre and possibly the RPG genre that can capture me the most.

But it's even more important to have diversity, if all RPG follow a single schema, even if this schema allow large variations, I'll find it boring.

It would be too long to develop but I consider that some of the core values of RPG are just incompatible from a gameplay point of view. In short, to take a simple example, make a RPG with large non linear exploration and many secondary quests, then try setup a main story that captivate the player and grab him in a frenetic story evolution to push him wish constantly learn more, and you break your RPG because the main story is too interesting and involves the player in a too high rhythm and frenetic curiosity.

Dasale said:

If I remember well it's around 2006, and I doubt that quote you any names will tell you anything.

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Rather recently being 2007. Nothing much has changed since in the staff except that Fable kind of disappeared.

Dasale said:

Eschalon Book 1

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Book I won indie RPG of the year runner-up in 2007. Behind the excellent Geneforge 4.
Since you're just sticking to vagueness on "having a feeling" that stuff changed, and I can't really follow what you're saying half the time, I don't think I can change your mind. More's the pity.

Brother None said:

...I can't really follow what you're saying half the time, I don't think I can change your mind. More's the pity.

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If you don't understand my posts don't answer them. I really don't care of your answers to something you don't understand. And don't complain I'm rude you'll make me laugh.