90% of almost all MMOs are about combat
SWTOR has "class stories" & "planet stories", too.
But also combat ...
Everquest goes FTP
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SWTOR has "class stories" & "planet stories", too.
But also combat ...
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pibbur who
Guest
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DArtagnan
Guest
You certainly seemed to bitch about it being unrealistic - but I guess it's worse because you don't like the powers in the game?
Some of it is D&D - some of it is their own stuff.
I said repeatedly, and AFAIK you need Great Cleave for that? Also, tone down the butthurt.
Great Cleave has no limit, that's true. But if you go Two Weapon Fighting - you can potentially kill 3-4 enemies pr. round as a first level Fighter (I forget if Cleave can be used more than once pr. round). You don't think that's "plenty"? Because I do.
That's pedestrian to you, right?
As for butthurt - I don't think that's my experience. But I admit it can be annoying when people put something down they don't know about.
I mean, if your reasons made any sense - I wouldn't be annoyed.
Again, you think D&D is a bad system because it's pedestrian and unrealistic at once - right?
I'm trying to understand what you mean by pedestrian.
Do you think Cleave is a pedestrian ability?
Personally, I think D&D is anything but pedestrian - but it's also not a game with a million active abilities. But it does have plenty of active abilities. Some of them are gained through feats, some of them are class inherent - and several are part of the core combat system. There's more tactical choice in D&D 3.0 and 3.5 than any single MMO you can mention.
Beyond that, I've always considered D&D to have one of the best magic systems out there - because the spells are almost all useful and inventive. They're not just iterations of a few damage/control types - which IS the norm.
The sense of progression is just about perfect, because you don't level up all the time - but just often enough to get that sense of evolving. The best part is that each level is very significant - where in most RPG systems, you hardly notice a single level.
But if you think it's pedestrian, you think it's pedestrian. It's just that your reasons and your obvious lack of knowledge makes your opinion questionable in terms of merit.
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Sacred_Path
Guest
I bitched about it being neither here nor there.
Like I said, I know nothing specific about DDO. In most games based on 3 and 3.5E I've played a level 1 fighter is usually dead meat when attacked by 4 humanoid enemies from the flanking bonuses alone.
o noes you don't agree with my assesment of D&D. I guess all the time I've been playing D&D based video games has been for nought!
Yes.
Eh, are you talking PnP or something? Complete Figter's Handbook or whatever they call their cash cows now? Yeah, I'm sure you can get a million active abilities if you buy PnP supplements. Not in most video games though. Case in point: Icewind Dale 2. Therefore, you are wrong.
Vancian magic best ever? I don't think so. Oh I forgot: you can probably buy a dozen magic compendiums with rules for an alternate magic system.
Hmm? How is i.e. the fourth level for a straight fighter 'significant'? You get like +1 BAB and +1 Fortitude saving throw. That's it. Not a reason to freak out. Ok, maybe 4th level isn't a good example, because there that +1 BAB still counts. Let's say 16th level.
edit: ok I forgot fighters get a bonus feat on 4th level. Let's say barbarian then.
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Kinda hate to stick my nose in the muck, but DDO is fairly good about not having "dead" levels. Whether it's new abilities, new feats, or new spells, you generally get something, regardless of class and your position in the 1-20 heroic progression. If nothing else, you get access to some sort of new items since level restrictions on weapons are based on even levels while the restrictions on gear are based on odd level.
Of course, with action points you're picking up new enhancements during every level, usually multiple times within each one. Some of those enhancements are fairly mundane while others (like paralyzing arrows for arcane archers) will dramatically alter your strategy.
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Sacred_Path
Guest
Wut? A level 4 barbarian gets access to weapons a level 3 barbarian doesn't have? It's starting to sound very obscure, this... DDO.
dteowner
Shoegazer
Most items in the game have minimum level requirements. Perhaps it gives the game a "realism" penalty, but it does a fairly good job of keeping balance in check. Then, as mentioned, you also get the joy at level-up of finally getting to use that awesome pointy stick that you found a few quests back.
The slightly less obvious benefit of the min level requirement is that it puts a dent in "pay to win" approaches. DDO's structure makes "pay to win" largely worthless anyway, but you won't see your proverbial level 4 barbarian running around with a +1337 Insta-killing Greatsword of Teh Awsum because even if Mommy's credit card will buy it, the character won't be able to use it.
The slightly less obvious benefit of the min level requirement is that it puts a dent in "pay to win" approaches. DDO's structure makes "pay to win" largely worthless anyway, but you won't see your proverbial level 4 barbarian running around with a +1337 Insta-killing Greatsword of Teh Awsum because even if Mommy's credit card will buy it, the character won't be able to use it.
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Sacred_Path
Guest
Seems like kinda a drastic way to curb pay2win, but hey. Personally I say let people pay all they want in their games, just make them do it on their own servers. Let them think of it as gated communities - they'll love it
dteowner
Shoegazer
I seriously doubt controlling P2W was the intent of min levels, but it does make a nice side benefit. The plan was clearly to force gear to be appropriate to toon level.
Although Turbine is currently ham-fisting the implementation in countless ways as only they can, I like their recently introduced philosophy of "pay for convenience". Seems like a good way to create a revenue stream in a free-to-play game without screwing up game balance. Means I'm safely locked in to "inconvenient" but allows the lucky bastards with money to keep the servers running via their laziness.
Although Turbine is currently ham-fisting the implementation in countless ways as only they can, I like their recently introduced philosophy of "pay for convenience". Seems like a good way to create a revenue stream in a free-to-play game without screwing up game balance. Means I'm safely locked in to "inconvenient"
but allows the lucky bastards with money to keep the servers running via their laziness.
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DArtagnan
Guest
You called it pedestrian and unrealistic - and both as negatives. Are you now saying you didn't mean unrealistic is a negative? Then why bring it up?
Ah, so you want to be able to take on 4 enemies regardless of what they're capable of?
You want to be a superhero from level 1 - I get it
Certainly strange that you have played so much of what you don't like. I guess you really enjoy pedestrian abilities after all
Oh, in what way - exactly?
Eh, are you talking PnP or something? Complete Figter's Handbook or whatever they call their cash cows now? Yeah, I'm sure you can get a million active abilities if you buy PnP supplements. Not in most video games though. Case in point: Icewind Dale 2. Therefore, you are wrong.
I'm talking about D&D - not poor implementations of D&D. I specifically said you don't have a million active abilities, so maybe if you read with your eyes open?
I'm not including any of the other books - just the core rules.
But you probably have around 5-10+ active abilities at level one in D&D - depending on your class.
Icewind Dale 2 is not D&D - it's a very bad implementation of D&D which got almost everything wrong.
Temple of Elemental Evil is probably closest - but even that implementation leaves out a hell of a lot of tactical options.
Neverwinter Nights is a reasonable real-time implementation of the rules - and it does what it can to approximate some of the complexity of the D&D combat system, but most of the tactical options are missing.
DDO has a reasonably wide array of active abilities from level one - but it's pretty far removed from the turn-based source. But it's a typical MMO where you can kill dozens of enemies without resting or being in much trouble. You'd love it
Oh, so what is the best magic system in your mind? I'm curious.
You get a significant amount of hitpoints, you get a feat, you get a fortitude bonus, you get new skill points, you get a BAB bonus.
Level 16 is basically the same - and an extra feat is a big deal in D&D.
Oh, so a Fighter is significant, then?
Barbarians get an extra rage usage - and they get a shitload of hitpoints - as well as BAB, skill points and Fortitude.
Oh, but none of that matters, right?
What a joke
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DArtagnan
Guest
Seems like kinda a drastic way to curb pay2win, but hey. Personally I say let people pay all they want in their games, just make them do it on their own servers. Let them think of it as gated communities - they'll love it
The system was in place before it became F2P with cash shop - so no, wrong again
Let's play a new game:
Say something about DDO that's actually true!
Maybe it would help if you played it a little or you read something about it?
Not all computer games based on D&D rules are Icewind Dale 2. Just saying
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Sacred_Path
Guest
The system was in place before it became F2P with cash shop - so no, wrong again
Can you even read? That this was introduced as a measure against pay2win balance issues was dteowner's idea, not mine.
Wait what? I have no intention of playing DDO, nor of reading about it, consequently. What I'm saying is that the implementation of D&D in video games has bored and underwhelmed me in the past. What I'm hearing now about DDO doesn't make it better, though. Level requirements for low level items is some extreme cheese.
Not all computer games based on D&D rules are Icewind Dale 2. Just saying
Or NWN, or NWN2, or Pools of Radiance, or Temple of Elemental Evil, right?
Not to mention that 2nd edition was a complete snoozefest too.
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DArtagnan
Guest
Can you even read? That this was introduced as a measure against pay2win balance issues was dteowner's idea, not mine.
He said it was an added benefit - not that it was put in place for that reason.
I guess that's because D&D tries to be everything and fails.
That's your way of saying that the D&D implementation is the problem?
It sure sounded like you had a problem with the system. But if you're talking about Icewind Dale 2 - I can appreciate that, because it was an extremely bad implementation.
Or NWN, or NWN2, or Pools of Radiance, or Temple of Elemental Evil, right?
I'm not a big fan of 2nd Edition.
But I consider NWN, NWN2 and ToEE reasonably good implementations of D&D - and I think the good parts of the system are kept mostly intact for those games.
Why would you want to play so many games based on a system you don't like?
I really don't get it.
But I see you've dodged all my relevant questions - so I'm going to assume you didn't really mean what you said - and that's ok
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Sacred_Path
Guest
Me: "D&D is neither A nor B."
DArt: "So you're saying D&D is totally A, and moreso than other games! But you can't prove it!"
That's all I'm willing to say on this matter anymore. It's getting extremely herp derp.
Ah, so you want to be able to take on 4 enemies regardless of what they're capable of?
You want to be a superhero from level 1 - I get it
No, but as I explicitly said, I want to play solo. As in, there will be no other characters around. Can you see then why it might be a problem if my character can't handle more than one enemy at a time?
Certainly strange that you have played so much of what you don't like. I guess you really enjoy pedestrian abilities after all
No, I just have a bit of a strange relationship with RPG's. They're my favorite genre, bar none, but I find more fault with them than with other games. I can enjoy other games and say "hey, that's a nice little shooter!" or "hey, that's a nice little strategy game!", and not think about them or their flaws much. As an example, I got Far Cry in a GOG sale and have been playing it very irregularly for like half a year now. I don't care how herp derp it is that a little bit of foliage renders my character completely invisible even when they stand right in front of me and I shoot them in the face. It's also possible that this doesn't happen on the higher difficulties. Don't care. I'm not passionate about that game.
My relationship with RPG's may be masochistic, destructive and dysfunctional, but that's how I like it.
I'm talking about D&D - not poor implementations of D&D. I specifically said you don't have a million active abilities, so maybe if you read with your eyes open?
I'm not including any of the other books - just the core rules.
But you probably have around 5-10+ active abilities at level one in D&D - depending on your class.
Wait, how much exactly does a paladin heal with lay on hands on level 1? 1 HP IIRC, is that correct? How long does the average Barbarian's rage last on the lower levels (which he can use exactly once before resting)? Characters may have some choices in low level D&D, but they're far from thrilling.
So what you're saying is that every implementation of D&D was lacking. See, that was my point from the start.
Herp derp. You said "D&D haz best magic EVAR". If you want to elaborate on that, do so. To me, the obvious pitfalls of Vancian magic are impossible to overlook. Ok, my wizard is a magic battery, and his batteriness increases as he gains levels. That much is true for many systems. But then - while my wizard gains more "memory", and thus can memorize more of the same spells, he still can't cast a single instance of that spell before he has "memorized" it? Seems p. ridiculous. Then there's also the relative uselessness of low level casters in D&D. And there are the practical limitations of a system that was designed to be relatively easy to use in PnP (again, might be a weakness of D&D's habit to cater to everyone and their moms). Just off the top of my head Wizardry 8's system comes to mind, which allows casting spells at different power levels, something that should be seen more. Ok, newer D&D's have something akin to that using feats, but it's a lot clunkier, not as freely usable, and not relevant on the lower levels.
Never underestimate the dramatical effect of hitpoints! Exciting.
corrected for Barbarian as per my example
Also much potential for drama, especially on a melee character. They tend to get, like… 1 of them.
No, but a fighter is a little less boring to build thanks to the feats, if you enjoy playing around with that kind of stuff. The trouble is, though:
- In PnP, one feat more or less probably won't change the flow of the gaming experience much, which is especially true if the DM puts more emphasis on actual roleplaying
- In computer games, there tend to be not that many (exciting) feats to take. Also, due to the nature of feats that require other feats a lot of this is anticlimactic and mostly about following the path that you chose for the character upon creation.
Okok dude, let's say level 6 instead, right? You get… +2 trap sense. BOOYAH. IIRC that means a +2 bonus to reflex saving throws against traps, which aren't the barbarians forte anyway, so you'll likely still fail that save. Especially useless as in most D&D video games a rogue will take care of scouting and traps, not the barb.
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DArtagnan
Guest
So, you can't even acknowledge that you called it both pedestrian and unrealistic as negatives - even if it's something everyone here can go back and read?
I guess that's "herp derp" in one way or another
In any case - I was asking why it's a problem that D&D is unrealistic - when all fantasy games are like that, basically.
You kinda missed my entire point and you don't even remember what you've said.
Ehm, why would a game throw more enemies at you than you can handle?
Are you not aware that all modern MMOs allow for solo play?
Hmm, that's certainly a bit strange.
I guess it makes sense that you play a lot of games with implementations of rules you don't like - if you actually enjoy playing games you don't like
Ok, that's very strange - but I can accept it.
Fair enough, I can accept it.
Lay on hands is not available on 1st level. It starts at 2nd level and it's your level x CHA - meaning it can be anything from 2 to 8. 8 Hit points is quite a lot when you're not playing a dedicated healer.
Rage lasts for 3 rounds + his CON modifier - meaning up to 7 rounds at first level.
If you don't think +4 STR, +4 CON and +2 WILL save is a big deal for seven rounds - I don't know what is.
But ok, again, you don't know the system and even if you did - you're not thrilled by abilities that can clearly mean life and death for low level characters.
I guess that makes sense for a masochist.
So what you're saying is that every implementation of D&D was lacking. See, that was my point from the start.
Lacking in terms of being perfect implementations? Sure.
But your point seemed to be that all D&D games were boring and then you talk about the worst possible implementation as your "explanation".
Pretty weak argument, I must say.
Ehm, you haven't played many Sorcerers - have you?
Try looking up that class when you're in the mood to educate yourself about that which you speak
As for Wizardry 8 and its handful of iterations of "Acid damage" "Fire damage" "Cold damage" spells at various levels - that's a better alternative?
Ok, there are some stuns and stuff there - IIRC.
But that's funny
Oh, so being able to survive a lot more punishment is boring to you?
Makes about as much sense as everything else you're saying.
But ok, I'm starting to appreciate where you're coming from. You're a masochist - and you're not excited about abilities that make a huge difference in combat.
I get it.
You want to cast spells from a small selection that do pretty much the same thing and you want to be able to use "power" levels instead of enhancing them with feats?
Ok, that's your idea of a better magic system.
Oh, and you want to be able to handle more enemies by yourself than you're likely to face.
Fair enough
You don't like to roleplay characters with much intelligence, do you? I can see why
But, actually, there are several viable melee builds that rely on reasonably high intelligence - and skills can be quite useful.
Maybe not the most exciting aspect of levelling up for a fighter - but it's there all the same, and it's just one thing among those other things which you've failed to dispute because you can't.
I take it you don't enjoy playing around with feats?
Wait what? Now you're talking about PnP? Why? Your entire point has been about computer games - you just said so.
You didn't enjoy the feats in NWN, NWN2 and ToEE - that's what you're saying right?
Now you're talking about DMs that - for whatever reason - don't allow feat selection because of roleplaying? What?
That's a reach - even for you!
That's right, you don't find feats that grant extra attacks exciting. So, going from Power Attack to Cleave to Great Cleave is boring - because who cares about killing multiple mobs, right?
Whirlwind is boring too, right?
The Two Weapon fighting feats are dull? Who cares about dual wielding - that's boring.
Who cares about Weapon Specialization adding extra damage? That's boring.
Improved Critical? Getting more critical hits for even more damage is boring?
Disarm? Boring. Removing the weapon of the opponent - SO pedestrian, right.
Yeah - being a fighter is very boring.
Because in Wizardry 8 - you have so many active abilities as a melee dude. Except I can't really think of any. No, that's not right - there are like 3-4 pr. class, like Berzerking and Stam regen. Obviously, 3-4 abilities for the entire level range is a LOT more exciting than the 15+ you'll have in D&D as a single class character.
You get another feat at level 6
How would a Thief take care of traps when you want to play solo?
I'm trying hard to appreciate your logic - but it's pretty much non-existant at this point.
Sorry
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Sacred_Path
Guest
And you have played all modern MMO's to arrive at this conclusion?
It would be a bad idea, economically, to do things otherwise, yes. Which doesn't mean that it can't happen. It depends on their business model more than anything. If the game is built around services offered to guilds then there could well be "strong incentives" to play with a group.
Hmm, that's certainly a bit strange.
I guess it makes sense that you play a lot of games with implementations of rules you don't like - if you actually enjoy playing games you don't like
Ok, that's very strange - but I can accept it.
You find it strange that people can have fun with something while realizing its flaws? Ok, that explains a lot about your posts.
+4 STR translates into +2 damage per hit or +3 with a two handed weapon IIRC. That is, if you hit at all, which is far from a given in low level D&D. I can honestly say I've never played a game where the barbarian's rage made the crucial difference over several difficult combats. Plz cite a few examples where you think rage is totally relevant.
No, wait - in the 2nd/ 3rd ed hybrid BG2, the rage was quite nice as it made you outright immune to quite a lot of spells/ conditions. Which is btw something that those measly +2 will saves will NOT do for you later on, not even after moving on to Greater Rage or WTF it's called.
I never said that all of them were boring - you're mixing up the mechanics and the entirety of the gameplay and story now. I was quite entertained by all IE games for example, even if the character progression and combat was quite often a snore.
You probably wouldn't know a solid argument if it bit you in the arse btw.
Ehm, you haven't played many Sorcerers - have you?
Try looking up that class when you're in the mood to educate yourself about that which you speak
So you are denying the existence of Vancian magic and its practitioners (like wizards) in D&D. I may be a masochist, but you're clearly delusional.
As for Wizardry 8 and it's handful of iterations of "Acid damage" "Fire damage" "Cold damage" spells at various levels - that's a better alternative?
That's funny
Because D&D doesn't use different elemental damage forms? I see.
Wizardry's collection of spells is built around what the game is about, combat. And I dare you to mention a single D&D based video game that had extremely imaginative spells in it and allowed you to use them creatively. Lightning Bolt and Fireball baby, Lightning Bolt and Fireball. Or Web and Slow, if you want to be just one step ahead of the direct damage crew. Now THESE are shining examples of a unique magic system
Oh, so being able to get hit in the head with a warhammer 10 times instead of 8 is exciting to you? That's one of the worst cases of D&D fanboyism I've seen.
You're convinced that 80 hit points make a huge difference in D&D combat compared to 70 hit points. I see.
You don't like to roleplay characters with much intelligence, do you? I can see why
How appropriate, you fight like a cow!
Ah, I see. Substituting skill point requirements to gain feats for feat requirements to gain feats is fun and exciting.
Herp derp, skills can be useful. Yes. If the game allows for it, which more often than not, they don't. D&D video games tend to be about combat and story, and often not even story.
Also, D&D suffers from skill monkey syndrome. There's just no reason to have a highly skilled fighter when you have rogues and wizards. Oh right, there are feats that are useful to a fighter that have skill requirements. Unfortunately, there are also plenty of feats that are useful to a fighter that don't.
Not in D&D, no.
"Hmm, Iron Will… would be kind of cool to have on my fighter. Except he still won't resist a single spell that targets will.
"Oh, Cleave. Could be a cool and useful feat but it doesn't lead to Whirlwind Attack so I better skip it. Must save those feats."
Yes. I went off on a tangent for all of a single sentence and it leaves you completely bedazzled. Sorry, I will try not to confuse you with too many points.
It's not even an outright extra attack, much less one that you can actually direct at another target. And in your post you're highlighting exactly one other thing that sucks about D&D's feats - prerquisites and set paths. Everyone in their right mind goes from Power Attack to Cleave to Great Cleave, or else they will choose an entirely different path. Snoozapalooza.
My last point applies to Whirlwind Attack too.
Nah hey, it's just gimmicky weeaboo crap. Dual wielding in RPG's isn't boring, it's like a predictable car accident.
+2 damage and a 1 point bonus to critical range can't be pedestrian… or can it?
AHAHA. Let me find that Oblivion thread where you berated Oblivion's "boring" special attacks (that include things like disarming) compared to Skyrim's kewl shouts.
Because you've never played the game/ didn't understand it enough to survive your first combat/ are terrible at remembering things?
There are active abilities like going berserk in Wizardry FYI. Wizardry's combat isn't exciting due to active abilities though (but due to other things), but I was strictly speaking about its magic system btw.
How would a Thief take care of traps when you want to play solo?
I'm trying hard to appreciate your logic - but it's pretty much non-existant at this point.
Sorry
You are right, I've totally gotta play DDO because there, I could get a Barbarian who gets a minor saving throw bonus against traps, except that there are no lethal traps in the game I actually play (LOTRO) and the saving throw bonus won't save me from a single trap in practice.
Better luck next time!
dteowner
Shoegazer
Is it inappropriate to TL;DR an entire discussion, particularly if one has participated in it? I have much shame.
I have much shame.
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Sacred_Path
Guest
Is it inappropriate to TL;DR an entire discussion, particularly if one has participated in it?
Nop, not really. Although I believe (ahem!) we both raised some good points amid the narcissistic cock fighting.