Taxation

Corwin

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Just read this blog post by LEM and thought it might generate a few comments here, so read and respond.


  • All the Fuss About TaxesSeptember 30, 2011
    With the Presidential nomination sweepstakes and popularity contest already opening up, we’re all going to be treated to another year of claims and counterclaims, and, if the President’s recent remarks and the Republican candidates’ counter-claims are any indication, a good proportion of the rhetoric is likely to center around taxes.
    As I understand the respective positions, the Democrats feel that, because wealth has become more and more concentrated, particularly in the last decade, the “wealthy” [however they’re defined] should pay a greater share in taxes, and that would be determined by closing various “loopholes” and creating a higher tax rate for the top income categories, roughly above $250,000. The Republicans counter by saying that higher rates are counterproductive economically and that those who are above the “middle class” already pay a disproportionate amount of federal income tax.
    While statistics need to be viewed with care, and I know, having spent many years as an economist, I decided to take yet another look at the IRS statistics in light of the present and likely the coming campaign charges, even though I know that few are likely to change their minds based on mere statistics.
    According to IRS statistics, during the period from 1951 to 1980, the percentage of Americans who paid no federal income taxes essentially remained stable at between 21-22%. Beginning in the 1980s, the percentage of taxpayers who paid no federal income tax began to rise, hitting 32% in 2004, 47% in 2009, and an estimated 53% in 2010.
    At the same time, the percentage of tax revenues paid by the “middle class” also declined, with the percentage of total income taxes paid by the “middle class’ [defined as those taxpayers comprising those making more than the median wage, but less than the top 10%] declining from almost 40% of all income tax revenues to about one quarter of all tax revenues. At the same time, the top ten percent of taxpayers went from paying roughly 45% of all income taxes to paying 70% of all income taxes.
    Put another way, 53% of all taxpayers, largely those in the bottom fifty percent of taxpayers in income terms, paid no taxes. The next third [37%, if we’re being more precise] paid 30% of all income tax revenue, and the top 10% [those with taxable incomes above $115,000] paid 70% of all federal income tax revenues.
    At present, the current federal deficit is running close to one and a half trillion dollars annually, and federal income tax revenues are bringing in around $850 billon. The most obvious, and most bandied about, solution is to increase taxes on the rich, but there are a number of problems with this solution.
    First, the reformers on the left confuse is “wealth” with “income,” and unless the Congress changes the tax law, the IRS and the Congress can only tax income, not wealth. According to the latest IRS statistics, the eight thousand wealthiest Americans earned a combined total of $239 billion in 2009. Assuming that Congress sees fit [which they won’t] to increase the marginal tax rate on millionaires and billionaires to 90%, and also assuming that they’re smart enough to get rid of all the deductions for these individuals, the total federal income tax revenues would total a little over $215 billion. Given that this year’s federal deficit will be roughly $1.4 trillion, taxing those less wealthy would also be necessary to get rid of the deficit by taxing the “rich.” The 14,000 odd taxpayers who earned between five and ten million dollars a year had a total income of $95 billion, and a 90% cut of their income would raise $85 billion. But since these taxpayers already pay close to $100 billion, the additional tax revenues would only be $200 billion. That’s still not enough. In fact, if a 90% rate were applied to all taxpayers with an income above 1 million dollars, the total additional revenue raised would amount to $300 billion. That leaves a short-fall of well over a trillion dollars… and the only people left to tax are those who are complaining the most about being overtaxed. For the 81 million people who aren’t millionaires, to cover the remaining deficit through income taxes would require an average tax increase of over $12,000 a tax return.
    Again, if one only wishes to tax the remaining “rich,” i.e., those making over $200,000 a year, that won’t work either, because taking all their taxable income would just barely cover that remaining trillion dollar deficit.
    So… in essence, even a 90% tax rate on everyone earning over $200,000 won’t cover the current federal deficit. And, of course that would raise other problems, because, since most state income taxes run around 6% for those making over $200,000, a 90% federal income tax would bankrupt all but those millionaires making more than $5 million annually.
    Given a $1.4 trillion annual deficit, and the lowest tax rates in more than 70 years, the Republican alternative of continuing lower taxes and slashing federal programs doesn’t seem terribly workable, either, since to balance the federal budget would require cutting roughly 30% of all federal programs…which would translate into cutting more than a million jobs at a time of high unemployment… and given the fact that many of those programs can’t be cut without a massive overhaul in government, either way, neither side makes much sense.

 
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That last sentence beautifully captures my take on American politics.
"neither side makes much sense "
 
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I find this particle not uninteresting :

and unless the Congress changes the tax law, the IRS and the Congress can only tax income, not wealth.

But the problem imho lies deeper :

Why do so many people do not pay tax at all ? I fear that the reason is simple : They earn too few money so they are below a certain boundary.

What the U.S. really reall really needs is giving those who re poor jobs so that they can pay more taxes again - but whre should these jobs come from ?

This is imho the pime question, and the only way to resolve/find out this is folowing the question-path of : Why were these jobs cut originally ? And why don't current firms just create new jobs ?

I fear that the U.S. economy has reached a point of no return : "What was earlier ? The hen or the egg ?" - Because the answer to why companies don't create more jobs is simply this : No-one is buying their products.

And why aren't pople buying their products ?

Because they re too poor, I fear. Or they re desperately holding their money together in an attempt to be ready for even worse times.

Or - and this is related to the house-funding crisis (as I call it) : People are so poor because they have to pay every little bit of money to banks. Interest rates, mortgage rates and such.

If this latter is true, then it would ppear to me as if banks are sucking people dry, so to say, that they don't let them accumulate enough wealh to be able to buy more products which would - at least in the long-term, I hope - enable firms to create more jobs. And these jobs would enable people to spend more money.

What was earlier ? The hen or the egg ?
 
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That last sentence beautifully captures my take on American politics.
"neither side makes much sense "

Neither side makes much sense because taxing and spending isn't the issue as much as the downturn in the economy is the issue. A great deal of the problem will be resolved as we move beyond the recession cycle. Might also consider that a great deal of the debt has resulted from the temporary borrowing in support of two unfunded wars and the attempts to stimulate the economy.

That said, there is a worsening economic disparity between the top 20% and the bottom 20%. Those who don't pay any income tax do so because they don't earn enough income to make it, and are, therefore, subsidized by the system. The ideal would be that anyone willing to work should be able to support themselves, and the disparity between the richest and poorest should be less significant. How to resolve those two issues is what we should be thinking about, not the side issue of taxes.
 
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in support of two unfunded wars
I'd like to poke a hole in this whole line of thought. I'm willing to give some latitude as to exactly what everyone means by "unfunded" but either approach pretty well falls apart.

"Unfunded" as in not listed in the budget:
Congress has authorized, via legislation, money to be spent for both war efforts. As such, the literal definition of "unfunded" makes the accusation patently false. As in "flat-out lie". About the only conflict that would qualify in the past couple decades would be Obama's foray into Libya, since he never quite got around to getting congressional approval within the timeframe spelled out in law.

"Unfunded" as in no money set aside beforehand to cover war expenses:
OK, this definition of "unfunded" at least doesn't fly in the face of reality, but let's think about it for a minute. The US has never in its history had a pile of money sitting around just in case a war breaks out. I expect this would be the case for all nations throughout history. Thus, ALL wars are unfunded under this definition. WW2? Unfunded. Desert Storm? Unfunded. Bosnia? Unfunded. Which makes this accusation that Iraq and Afghanistan are "unfunded" positively hollow at best. It's a nice rallying cry, but ends up being nothing but a rhetorical device.
 
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Could I ask that IF you want to discuss the funding of wars that you begin a new thread and leave this one for the discussion of taxation!! :) (Faint Hope...)
 
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“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.”

Sad that we were able to see our own shortcomings so clearly then, and we unable to even discuss them in a civil manner today.
 
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I'd like to poke a hole in this whole line of thought. I'm willing to give some latitude as to exactly what everyone means by "unfunded" but either approach pretty well falls apart.

Try "we payed for them by borrowing money, because there was nowhere else we could get the money from".

Übereil
 
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Try "we payed for them by borrowing money, because there was nowhere else we could get the money from".

Übereil
Which, exactly as I said, applies to every war in the history of the US. It makes the accusation completely hollow.
 
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Which, exactly as I said, applies to every war in the history of the US. It makes the accusation completely hollow.

Not if you consider all (or at least most, since the occasional war was probably worth it) wars in the history of the US to have been mistakes on the same grounds.

Übereil
 
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The US has two real problems with its income tax code.

1) In theory it is progressive, but effectively it is bell shaped. As a percentage the middle to upper middle class generally pay the highest amount. This is due to all the various loopholes and deductions that exist in the code, that are much easier for the upper class to exploit.

2) We've gradually increased the number of people not paying any Federal Income Tax to the point where more than half of filers pay none at all. Not too many people would argue that a person making barely at the poverty line should pay FIT, but it seems a bit ridiculous when you have filers making $40k, $50k, or more per year paying nothing, but enjoying the luxuries of multiple cars, cell phones, cable TV, etc.

Not if you consider all (or at least most, since the occasional war was probably worth it) wars in the history of the US to have been mistakes on the same grounds.

Übereil

Why would you consider even most of the wars in US history to be mistakes? I can get Vietnam and Iraq, but WWII? The Civil War? Korea?
 
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Why would you consider even most of the wars in US history to be mistakes? I can get Vietnam and Iraq, but WWII? The Civil War? Korea?

I lack the insight into the history of American wars to really comment. I've a feeling that a vast majority of your wars was uncesesary, though (and if the last ten years is representative you're a wee bit too keen on going to war for anyone's good).

But whatever I think, I was really just speculating on what Jhari meant when he called Iraq and Afghanistan unfunded.

Übereil
 
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I'd like to poke a hole in this whole line of thought. I'm willing to give some latitude as to exactly what everyone means by "unfunded" but either approach pretty well falls apart.

"Unfunded" as in not listed in the budget:
Congress has authorized, via legislation, money to be spent for both war efforts. As such, the literal definition of "unfunded" makes the accusation patently false. As in "flat-out lie". About the only conflict that would qualify in the past couple decades would be Obama's foray into Libya, since he never quite got around to getting congressional approval within the timeframe spelled out in law.

"Unfunded" as in no money set aside beforehand to cover war expenses:
OK, this definition of "unfunded" at least doesn't fly in the face of reality, but let's think about it for a minute. The US has never in its history had a pile of money sitting around just in case a war breaks out. I expect this would be the case for all nations throughout history. Thus, ALL wars are unfunded under this definition. WW2? Unfunded. Desert Storm? Unfunded. Bosnia? Unfunded. Which makes this accusation that Iraq and Afghanistan are "unfunded" positively hollow at best. It's a nice rallying cry, but ends up being nothing but a rhetorical device.

By "unfunded", I was specifically referring to the Bush doctrine of fighting wars by borrowing, rather than increasing taxes. In the case of Af/Stan and Iraq, that borrowing resolved into a 3T deficit, while taxes went DOWN.
 
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I love this "Bush doctrine" crap. Barack hasn't raised taxes for his continuation of The Stan. Barack didn't even get congressional approval for Libya, let alone funding thru tax increases. Unless you're going to further claim that Obama = Bush, you're pretty much full of it.
 
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On security and foreign policy (escalated drone attacks, illegal war in Libya, the al-Awlaki killing, etc.) he surely is worse.
 
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Beginning in the 1980s, the percentage of taxpayers who paid no federal income tax began to rise, hitting 32% in 2004, 47% in 2009, and an estimated 53% in 2010

What? Over half the population does not pay income tax? I understand that certain groups do not pay taxes, such as children, but 53%?

Just to add something of a comparison:
In Norway, roughly 3,9 million out of 5 million people pay income tax. That's almost 80%, in a country where living on welfware is a lot easier than in the US.

Something must be wrong with the numbers - you can't run a country if only half the population are tax payers.
 
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Something must be wrong with the numbers - you can't run a country if only half the population are tax payers.
Hey, the problem is that the 50% that actually pay taxes aren't doing their fair share--just ask Obama and the democrats.

Funny that the same folks that whine all the time about "fair taxation" are the most vocal opponents of a flat tax.
 
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By "unfunded", I was specifically referring to the Bush doctrine of fighting wars by borrowing, rather than increasing taxes. In the case of Af/Stan and Iraq, that borrowing resolved into a 3T deficit, while taxes went DOWN.

Most wars are fought with borrowed money. WWII, Korea and Vietnam all saw spending outpace tax receipts. It's not a Bush doctrine. And while Afghanistan and Iraq did cost a lot, they were not even close to being alone in causing the 3T deficit (hello medicare part D!).

What? Over half the population does not pay income tax? I understand that certain groups do not pay taxes, such as children, but 53%?

Just to add something of a comparison:
In Norway, roughly 3,9 million out of 5 million people pay income tax. That's almost 80%, in a country where living on welfware is a lot easier than in the US.

Something must be wrong with the numbers - you can't run a country if only half the population are tax payers.

Nope, those numbers are correct. It's 53% of filers, not population. There were roughly 87 million tax returns filed last year, so 47 million of those paid no Federal Income Tax. That doesn't even talk about the number of that of those 47 million that actually end up receiving net money from the government.

The number of credits targeting low to lower middle class households has grown significantly over the past 15 years. The problem is that no politician will touch it. It's going to take someone that is willing to risk not getting re-elected to fix the system. Yet another argument for term limits.

To be fair, those people do still pay some Social Security and Medicare taxes (6.2% generally by the employee, though lowered to 4.2% this year, and 6.2% by the employer), plus sales tax, gas taxes, and often state (or even city) income taxes.

I'm of a firm belief that we could fix a lot of our problems by eliminating credits and deductions and just going to a flat 15-20% FIT rate beginning at the poverty level.
 
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I like Cain's idea of a relatively flat tax *but* he screws it up with the no taxes on investment income part and his not slaying some sacred cow deductions. Income is income. He could easily fix his fix by leaving that part out and he could throw a bone to progressives by making the income tax part only kick in on income above $10,000 or something.

The "x% of people don't pay FIT!" (often stated as "don't pay taxes!") is a sham argument because many if not most of those people end up paying a higher % of their income in **total taxes** than people on the upper end.
 
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