Best Way to Learn a Second Language

magerette

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Now that I have some extra time on my hands for the first time in my life, I'm interested in learning how to read and explore some other languages besides English. With so many here who speak such excellent English as a second language, and many who speak more than two, I thought maybe I could get some pointers.

First, do you feel a formal learning situation is best? If so, brick and mortar classroom with real people, or online classes or structured lessons in some other way? I don't have the option to travel among native speakers and speak only their language which I think is the quickest way outside of formal training to learn, but is there any other way to get close to that kind of result?

Second, I wasn't bad at linguistics when I was in school, and was reasonably fluent in French and learned a bit of Japanese as well. However my memory is not what it used to be and I worry that learning any new language is going to be mainly a question of memorizing,which will be a weak point for me. Any tips on that aspect?

Third, the language I'm primarily interested in learning is German. Is this 'harder' than others for English speakers?


Thanks for any help or suggestions in advance. :)
 
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Supposedly, German is the easiest language for English speakers to pick up, even easier than Spanish.
 
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Thanks. :) I probably should add that my goal is more to be able to read and understand it than speak it.
 
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German, English and Dutch have a similar background -> they are formed out of the same language. French, Spannish and Italian have that too. I think you may find it easier to learn some German, the when you learn French. The only thing that the German language has (and that you'll also find in Latin) grammatical cases which make it a quite difficult language to learn. I never got into it despite being it the third official language in Belgium and despite the many vacations in both Germany and Austria.

As a learning method -> The only time I spoke some good French was when I spend 20h/week for ten weeks. 3x2hours a week for group discussion about various topics in French and 3x2hours a week of exercises. Combine that with 8h a week of studying and you will learn any language.
 
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First off, adults learn languages differently than children. Our brains are less flexible, but we have more powerful conceptual tools that we can use. That means that where a kid can soak up a new language like a sponge, simply through intuition and by being exposed to it, an adult has to work at it.

However, an adult can learn a new language just about as quickly as a child -- even if s/he won't be able to reach as high a level of fluency in it.

But... memorization, drill, and rote practice are pretty much unavoidable, if you're an adult that is. At least to some extent.

What environment works best? In my experience... it doesn't really matter. If you're motivated, any environment will work; if you're not, you won't learn even with the best teacher and the most supportive environment in the world.

The advantage with structured environments like classes is that if you're *kiinda* motivated but not really passionately interested (or forced to), it gives you that little extra push that you might need. But if you have the motivation and self-discipline, you'll learn the basics from language tapes just as well. But motivation is the key -- if you're ready to do the work yourself, language tapes are fine; if you're not quite sure, classes help a lot. Bricks and mortar and classmates are likely to be more motivational than online classes.

As to German, it's not particularly hard for an English-speaker: there's a pretty big base of shared vocabulary, and the grammatical structure will be vaguely familiar. However, it's a great deal more complex grammatically, with three genders, several noun and adjective declinations, sentence structures with semantic differences, and quite involved verbs. The nice thing is that it's very systematic and logical, with a good deal fewer exceptions and general randomness than, say, French or English. (Big surprise there, I'm sure.)

Okay, so how do you go about learning a new language? Lots of ways, I'm sure, but here's what works for me:

Phase 1: The basics.

This is the least fun bit. It means drilling in the basic grammar and vocabulary. That means rote memorization of words and phrases, pronunciation, and grammar drills. You can learn this in class or from language tapes. Don't expect it to be a lot of fun, especially if you don't enjoy memorization. There are supposedly less painful ways of doing this, but IMO they aren't really, and will just take longer and leave you with a mushier base to build on.

At the end of this phase, you should have basic "tourist level" language skills, and be able to understand the headlines in a newspaper, and have a general idea of what the article is about, even if you won't be able to follow a conversation or read a book. If you practice intensively, it'll take you a few weeks to a few months, depending on how quick and especially how motivated you are.

With Russian, I did this at university -- I took a few levels of Russian one after the other, starting with reading comprehension and going on to general language courses.

Phase 2: Expansion.

Now, this is where you're kinda stuck if you're all alone. You really need someone to practice on/with. Conversation classes are great. German e-mail pals are great, if you want to focus on written rather than spoken German. You might want to try reading German magazines or, for example, websites (but forget forums like this one; the slang will be way beyond you).

Another tip: music. I got through this phase in Russian in two stages, the first of which involved discovering Russian songs. I built up a small collection of CD's from bands like Akvarium, DDT, Krematorii, Nautilus Pompilius, and so on, and got hold of the lyrics. I then deciphered the lyrics with a dictionary. Because it's music, it's easy to memorize, and I managed to build up a quite a bit of vocabulary in a way that was actually fun, and it strengthened the "feel" of how the language works. Reading poetry out loud does the same thing.

Oh, the second phase? I enrolled in a summer class in St. Petersburg. Spent a month going to Russian classes there (and of course had to survive in the Russian-speaking environment).

Phase 3: Use.

OK, at this point you'll have a pretty good feel for how the language works, and have enough core vocabulary that you'll be able to read a magazine with the help of a dictionary. Or carry on a conversation if your interlocutor is a bit patient. Here, it all depends on you and your priorities: spoken or written, prose or poetry, fiction or non-fiction, conversation or public speaking, and so on. The main thing is that you do something to *use* that language.

I did this stage of my Russian-learning by going to Ukraine for a year.

PS. Good pick. If I had to pick my languages all over again, German would get a much higher priority than it did. Germans are super-nice, and their press and literature are among the most varied and best in the world.
 
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I think the most important factors in my learning English were: 1) the fact that my father read the English translation of Asterix with me when I was a kid (1-2 pages a day) and 2) that there were almost no PnP RPG systems available in Polish when I became interested in the hobby - so what could I do? Grab a paper dictionary and read that huge Ars Magica manual at a snail's pace :) I still have about 15 RPG systems in English - I haven't played most of them, but I read through them repeatedly as a teenager :)

In general, I'd recommend checking out the basics and then finding an author you'd really like to read in the language you're about to learn. Then, buy a book and a digital dictionary (it's so much easier these days :)...) and be prepared for a VERY slow start. But still - aim high, try to read things too difficult for you :) (It worked for me and the English language (after learning the basics) , but things may be different with German, as mastering the robust grammar seems to be the priority.) So, find something (a book, a film series...) in the given langauge which will act as continual incentive, because you WILL have some doubts about the whole thing after a while.

I'm trying to learn German and my gf recently bought me a book by Walter Moers, who seems to be a really funny author. But more than a page a day is still a chore for me, maybe I'll have to try something easier...

But how to start? I'm fond of language schools (e.g. having 2 classes a week (not less!) in a group of students), but usually the learning process is extremely slow there and the burden is almost entirely on your shoulders (=what you do with the language away from the classes is decidedly more important). I think that I'd buy a few individual lessons, enough to get started reading easy books, and then - if I had time - go to a language school while continuing to read in my free time. Watching TV in the given langauge also works wonders, even if you understand NOTHING in the beginning. And don't trust in "Teach yourself" books.

Good luck! :)
 
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You guys don't know how helpful this is--I really appreciate it. Elwro I would never have guessed that English was not your first language--and of course the same with Prime J--you both are extremely fluent and excellent communicators.

Prime Junta wrote:
What environment works best? In my experience... it doesn't really matter. If you're motivated, any environment will work; if you're not, you won't learn even with the best teacher and the most supportive environment in the world.

So true in everything...from diet and health to work and learning. My philosophy is to try to find whatever approach is the most fun, because you're far more likely to want to have fun than slog through a tedious duty, regardless of how important the goal may be to you.

PS. Good pick. If I had to pick my languages all over again, German would get a much higher priority than it did. Germans are super-nice, and their press and literature are among the most varied and best in the world.

I love the way they make what I think Lewis Carroll(?) called 'portmanteau words'; that is, string together a sequence of words into one, which is then a far more vivid entity. Also, I'm constantly seeing quotations from Goethe and other German writers that mystify me, embedded in chapter headings and conversations in some of the fiction I read. And if the Germans on this site are an example, yes, they are super nice people.

Rather than quote everything point by point, I find Prime J's suggestions to use music and poetry, and Elwro's to buy a book and a dictionary to be the most attractive. Obviously this would be after following their joint suggestions to get the basics down through classes or tapes. I'm honestly not sure if there are German classes available here even at the college level--Spanish and Chinese seem to be the main focus these days. Fortunately there's always the internet.

AFA mastering the grammer and declensions, there's quite a bit of that in Japanese which has a lot of different honorifics and verb and noun forms depending on who is speaking to who( and a little in French, with the masculine and feminine forms, the literary and the spoken tenses, etc) so that's not too scary, at least in theory. :)


Some very practical and useful suggestions and again I thank you very much. :)
 
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I remember far more of the German I took in high school than the Japanese I took in college. The only thing that I really struggled with back in the day was the gendered nouns. The sentence structure and general grammar weren't that tough to grasp.

Haben Sie vielen Spass! (apologies if I butchered it :blush: )
 
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German TV and radio stations are another choice for additional language training. Don't mind the shows - concentrate on repetitive stuff like ads at first; you'll get the hang of it soon enough.
 
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In my experience, with English as a second language (thanks high school, TV, PC games and internet) it was not the easiest thing to learn German and I actually never became good at it. And my high school Spanish is even worse, no matter what my diploma says :)
 
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So how many languages do you speak, Arma? Your English is very clear.

AFA German, yes I was scouting around looking at options, and it's going to be a bit of a project. I really liked my six years of French, but I was a child and liked everything in school--it really got to be fun in high school when I could read books and understand movies. I've got it all mixed up with Spanish now, tho, from working with Spanish-speaking landscape crews--instead of Spanglish, it's Franish ;)

Looking around my area, there aren't a lot of classroom options--it looks like it will involve college enrollment, which is a big hassle and expensive, but as Prime J said in his post, having to go to class --especially one you've paid for yourself--is more motivating than reading a book. Have to crunch the numbers.

@Jaz--good idea about TV, but I'm unsure how I could view German TV here--maybe a webcast of some sort? Since we dropped cable, we don't even get BBC Canada anymore. Perhaps a film on DVD I could watch over and over...I've already thought about CD's--I can play them while I exercise--the most boring thing on earth for me.
 
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The single best way to learn a language (well) is to go to a place where it is spoken, and speak it. As much as possible. So after you have a little basic vocabulary, book a four week trip and take no english speaking companions. Or at least find a native speaker in your neighborhood who will chat you up for free coffee and cookies. Watching movies and reading books helps, but talking is the most important thing.
 
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The single best way to learn a language (well) is to go to a place where it is spoken, and speak it. As much as possible. So after you have a little basic vocabulary, book a four week trip and take no english speaking companions. Or at least find a native speaker in your neighborhood who will chat you up for free coffee and cookies. Watching movies and reading books helps, but talking is the most important thing.

I agree completely, and I'd love to go to Europe, but it's not an option at the moment. I spent 3 weeks in Mexico once, and by the time I left I actually could understand and make myself understood by the very patient people there who put up with my garbling of their language. I have no doubt that's the best crash course in the world--the signs, the menus, the conversations around you make you stop thinking in English.

As far as finding a native German-speaker in the middle of Oklahoma...let's just say, about the same or less than finding Osama bin Laden vacationing in Jerusalem. ;)
 
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As far as finding a native German-speaker in the middle of Oklahoma...let's just say, about the same or less than finding Osama bin Laden vacationing in Jerusalem. ;)

You might be surprised. Germans are everywhere. I am not kidding!
 
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I was lucky enough to grow up during the heyday of classical text adventures; practically all my English I picked up from Magnetic Scrolls, Infocom, and a few others. Tass times those were! This had the added benefit of having a reading comprehension test built in; you will not advance much unless you really parse and understand a room description.

Of course it's far easier to find a good text adventure or even RPG in English than in German, not least because I imagine text parsers to have a much harder time with the German grammar, but still, you might want to check the IF Archive, or perhaps (if it's your cup of tea at all) try a few RPG Maker-style games, of which there are quite a number of free ones in German. Or even the German edition of The Witcher?

As a matter of fact, I have been keeping my eyes open for something like that for my wife, who is also currently learning German. Well, she's not exactly a computer gaming geek, so the choice is a lot more difficult. But maybe others around here might have suggestions for a good, text-heavy German RPG or adventure that might be of interest to you and perhaps even my wife? I know we have quite a big German contingent here.

Then of course, you could always go the route of one of my quantum physics professors in grad school, who is a devout Wagnerian and picked up a kind of German from innumerable listenings of Der Ring des Nibelungen...
 
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The single best way to learn a language (well) is to go to a place where it is spoken, and speak it. As much as possible. So after you have a little basic vocabulary, book a four week trip and take no english speaking companions. Or at least find a native speaker in your neighborhood who will chat you up for free coffee and cookies. Watching movies and reading books helps, but talking is the most important thing.

Can't agree more! I still don't know Chinese because I haven't made a concentrated effort to learn more of it, but by just being in Taiwan I'm forced to learn the basics and expand from there. Get used to being giggled at though, until you start to pronounce the words correctly :) The hardest part of Chinese is understanding the four different tones.

Unfortunately, repetition is the best way to learn another language (at least for adults) and actually using the language to speak to someone.
 
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I had four years of Latin in high school and couldn't believe how helpful it was picking up rudimentary use of European languages.

I also agree that immersion is extremely helpful:

In my first job I had to take a trip to Germany (Karlsruhe) for a joint project, and did what everyone suggests - I learned what I could, and just went. I was told "don't worry, everyone speaks English" ... and got off the train and the taxi driver didn't, and from that moment on I spoke mostly German for the rest of the two weeks.

Same for trips my wife and I took where I picked up Spanish and French ... though I think I adapt to languages fairly easily.

There are some folks I used to work with who swear by the Rosetta Stone software system ... but I have no experience - and it is a few hundred dollars or so.
 
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good idea about TV, but I'm unsure how I could view German TV here--maybe a webcast of some sort? Since we dropped cable, we don't even get BBC Canada anymore. Perhaps a film on DVD I could watch over and over...I've already thought about CD's--I can play them while I exercise--the most boring thing on earth for me.
You can try the ZDF at www.zdf.de. Click on 'ZDF Mediathek'. There you will see several programs in German that can be viewed.
Or the ARD at http://www.daserste.de/interaktiv/videos.asp.
There are other German stations such as : 3sat, MDR, NDR, WDR and a whole bunch of other regional stations.
 
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Deutsche Welle TV can be received everywhere in the world. Their website is available in 30 languages. The shows (primarily news, talk shows and economic stuff) are produced at least in German and English. Hidden somewhere in the menu is an interactive German course. Could be worth checking out.
DW World recycles material by the "official" channels Myrthos already listed.

DVDs might be a good idea. At least the top 1% of the German cinema should be available in the US, for example Das Boot, Downfall, The Lives of Others. It might also be an idea to have somebody who travels to Europe buy you a couple of DVDs with German voices & subtitles. Just about every DVD in Germany comes with at least German and English voices and a gazillion subtitles. Be aware that European DVDs use region code 2 though. Your DVD player would refuse to play them unless he is convinced to accept them. That´s not a big problem. Codefree players are cheap, and the chances are good your current player is only a cryptic code with your remote away from becoming quite tolerant.

edit: Deutsche Welle TV produces language courses in cooperation with the Goethe Institut. That´s the official institution to spread the word about German culture all over the world. So the courses are certainly serious stuff produced with a lot of tax money.
 
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I'd suggest reading through German newspapers as well, just www.ksta.de as an example (it's the major newspaper of Cologne).

If you've learned a bit more, try buying printed newspapers and magazines - and place your dictionary besides them.

At first, everything is a bit hard, but later, it comes more fluent.

My strong, yet personal suggestion on reading printed material ist to get into fluent reading: It imho doesn't matter much whether you don't understand a few words, the fluently reading is important in my opinion.

AFTER reading a certain text or article, you should grab your dictionary and re-read everything with it.

And THEN, you should read everything with the new gained knowledge again.

I personally believe that this is effective.

And if you're working on spelling & pronouncing: Read aloud. Not so much that the neighbour wakes up, but loud enough for your personal taste.

Edit: And to add to Gorath: The Goethe Institutes are worth visiting, I guess. They're spread around all of the world.
 
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