Future of the RTS @ Gamasutra

magerette

Hedgewitch
Joined
October 18, 2006
Messages
7,834
There's an interesting look at the future of the RTS over at Gamasutra.

Can't put this one on the front page, but I know there are a lot of RTS players here and thought they might be interested in what the author has to say about some of the problems of and solutions for the genre.

Here's a little from the intro:

Have you ever experienced this feeling after playing a real-time strategy game? You get used to the controls, learn all the hotkeys, become efficient with the mouse, and find that the best way to win is to build units and firepower as fast as possible and throw them at the opponent in successive, inexorable waves.

It's not that the game ceases to be fun, but that it ceases to be fresh: the basic strategy never really changes. Essentially, your only viable strategy -- your overall plan for success -- is to wear down your opponent and destroy him.

I have experienced this feeling. As empowering -- and, at least initially, as fun -- as real-time strategy (RTS) games are, I often find that they turn into real-time tactics (RTT) games after a while. So often, there is no other viable plan for success beyond attrition. Sure, I may construct that building here instead of there, or gain control of those resources over there instead of these here, but I can never really change my basic plan for victory.

I cannot win by convincing my opponent to lay down his arms, since he knows that the only way I can win is for me to destroy him. I must collect more resources than my opponent in order that he not wear me out first. The threat of force or the limited use of force would not convince my opponent that I would win if our military forces engaged one another. Since there is only one viable strategy -- attrition -- victory will go to the best tactician, not the best strategist.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
7,834
Thats kind of what I think of RTS too. I started playing them with dune2 and I was really hooked originally. Nowadays though even the best of RTS bore me almost instantly. Red alert was the last RTS that I actually bought and played through.

Theres exceptions though like spellforce which is a mix of RPG/RTS. I have bought and played them all. In that game if I get bored by the RTS I can always switch to RPG and vice versa.

Thats the only future I see for RTS. They really need to start mixing with the other genres. And thats what they have been doing for quite a long time now. Som have more success than others.
 
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Messages
3,160
Location
Europa Universalis
Isn't it like any other genre, though? Shooters, action-RPG, etc ... ? Freshness comes from taking risks and trying new stuff, and incorporating stuff that works in other genres.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
14,951
I dont see what possible new you could add to the RTS genre to refresh the pure form of it. In my eyes its a dead-end if it doesnt heavily lend elements from other genres.

My opinnion (and authors too?) might not be valid though by the fact that I played so much RTS in the past that its possible I got totally burned to them. So people who have played less can still find somthing worthwhile in them and its not that bad at all.

Not sure if total burnout is possible for every genre. In case of FPS/RPG it has never happened to me and I have played them more than RTS even.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Messages
3,160
Location
Europa Universalis
Exactly - I only play a few here and there. I'm not a big fan of the genre and only got into it at all by reviewing them for GamerDad. But games like Company of Heroes and Supreme Commander are very different from each other and a real blast to play. But you really need to like the genre to deal with the micromanagement and so on.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
14,951
It's an interesting article, but his initial statements that launch the whole thing are something tht riles me that Ive been wanting to address for a long time. This is where I totally part ways with it seems everyone on the RTS front, who either just accept it because this is something someone else is saying, or dont know what the hell theyre talking about. This whole "build up lots of units and simply throw them at opponents" thing is said to be how these games are played, and that's also a big criticism as that's all it is. Maybe that's how everyone else plays them, but in my world this just doesnt work.

Ive tried this, and when I do, I get my ass handed to me nine times out of ten. Just the main gist of the simplification of non-tactics is wrong. Whenever I try and just spam units, select them all, and right click (or attack-move) on the enemy location, it's DEATH.

This is the way that I always see these games, why I play them, and why I like them-

I start with practically nothing. I build up a base, my defense, and a scouting party or early milita. Then, I work on economy while harassing the enemy, scouting their defenses, exploring the map, wiping out objectives around said map, taking part in little skirmishes and so on and so forth. I construct forward bases to deal with losses, if possible. I defend my base. Sometimes just this, just merely staying alive to fight another day and be able to crank out an army at all can be tough.

Then I decide what type of army i'm going to use, make them, and start advancing on the foe. Still, at the invasion phase, I cannot simply just select all my army and throw them wholesale at the enemy base, as I'll get chewed up by their defenses. So i take what siege equipment I have, and hopefully take out their defenses from afar, meanwhile repelling their counterattack theyll launch on my attacking force.

STILL, at this point, with defenses down (if they havent attacked me en masse already) and I attack both barrels, I need to micro the way my units are engaging the enemy. If I just click on the center of the enemy mass with all my units, I'll get most likey eaten alive. Where's my hero unit, where's theirs? How are they best used? Weaker units must stay in the back, or flank. Heavier units must engage from here. This unit can only attack this type, that unit can only attack air, yadda yadda yadda... it takes tactics, baby. This is fun, this is where the skill comes in.

Just throwing units will get you owned, quick. I absolutely loathe this assumption that keeps being thrown out there every time a jaded RTS player opens his mouth, that just building up a bunch of idiot units and flogging the enemy with them until they say uncle is all that this genre is. It's simply not true. If it truly was all there is to it, anyone could do it, experienced or not. Txa wouldnt have had a hard time with "being a general". Mags would be walking all over Mark of Chaos, and I'd be wearing a fluffy little pink kitten avatar. I'd be bored to death with the genre as I am with FPS.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
5,228
Location
San Diego, Ca
Just throwing units will get you owned, quick.

Especially in something like Company of Heroes ... recently finished the expansion and even trying tactics gets you killed by some of the really good players online ... I get to feel like such a n00b when playing RTS against others :D
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
14,951
Sounds like the author needs to play more games, ones outside the top charts. Paradox's games already include most of what he suggests.

It's an interesting article, but his initial statements that launch the whole thing are something tht riles me that Ive been wanting to address for a long time. This is where I totally part ways with it seems everyone on the RTS front, who either just accept it because this is something someone else is saying, or dont know what the hell theyre talking about. This whole "build up lots of units and simply throw them at opponents" thing is said to be how these games are played, and that's also a big criticism as that's all it is. Maybe that's how everyone else plays them, but in my world this just doesnt work.
I doubt he meant that literally, and your post largely supports his argument: "RTS" games are usually better described as real time tactics games because they largely consist of micromanaging units and they therefore lack the sort of depth you find in most turn based strategy games.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 18, 2006
Messages
525
Location
Sweden
I must admit that I haven't played RTS in ages (but this is partly because my DVd drive doesn't read DVDs anymore, or otherwise I would've tried Spellforce at least two months ago).

I miss a diplomacy option. RTS is about nothing but destroy, other means are not assumed to be.

Age of Wonders on the other hand has such an option, although AI-driven opponents can almost never be bribed (haven't seen it succeeded in my case). Likelöy-mind factions on the other hand rather tend to form allies (even AI-driven).

I must admit that it concerns me a bit that the only way of solving a problem (here: an opponent as such) is to kill, kill, kill. If RTS were a big, huge teaching machine, then the lessen's outcome would be clear. No convincing - only death. Take no prisoners !

This is too simple for my taste.

Of course, an RTS game can be quite demanding from the tactics and strategy point of view, but this is not what I mean.
 
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
21,952
Location
Old Europe
xSamhainx, I'm assuming he was talking about the single-player campaigns in RTS games. While I agree that Just throwing units will get you owned fast in multiplayer, the sad truth is that there are a lot of(not all) games where that simple tactic does work against the computer AI.
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
39,332
Location
Florida, US
I think that was the longest post I've ever seen from Sammy--when he was sober anyway. ;)--and I have to agree there's a lot more to RTS than the assumption
(x + y )= the whole game, where x=superior firepower and y= getting/using it first, rinse and repeat.

Unfortunately, it isn't the demands of tactics that are keeping your stripes safe, Sammy, it's the things that are easy for you and hard for me--the reason I don't like most RTS is the rushing and unit cranking. I like the strategy aspect. It's the frenetic pace I dislike. I'm just not good at changing focus back and forth from individual battles to resource and base building five or ten times a minute, micromanaging all the things you have to micromanage to throw units out fast enough to survive long enough to learn the proper strategy to use the damn units and resources effectively...if you follow. So you are totally right in that I don't have what it takes to be a master at RTS. :)

Of course, since there's no base building per se, I may actually get to the point with MoC that I'm into playing it. It's true also that I may not. I usually break out Dominions3 when I want a strategy fix and one of the Sierra city builders like Pharoah or Emperor when I want to build an economy.

However, if I ever do, I promise you'll be the first to know. :)
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
7,834
Ive had that one building up a while, mags! ='.'=

JDR- Sure, when "the new unit" is intro'd in a SP campaign, you'll exclusively use that unit to spam the enemy, point taken. But in later parts of the game once the ball is rolling and all units unlocked? I just dont see that, it doesnt happen to me. What about skirmish mode? No way!

I can never really lasso-'n-toss(tm) a bunch of units in RTS then just sit back and relax, not enough to say it's some sort of catch-all solution to beating every RTS. I dont know, maybe I'm terrible and I just dont know it. I just know from my personal experience that when I build a bunch of units and send them with no micro or strategy whatsoever at the enemy except overwhelm by numbers, they totally get eaten alive.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
5,228
Location
San Diego, Ca
JDR- Sure, when "the new unit" is intro'd in a SP campaign, you'll exclusively use that unit to spam the enemy, point taken. But in later parts of the game once the ball is rolling and all units unlocked? I just dont see that, it doesnt happen to me. What about skirmish mode? No way!
.


I wasn't talking about cranking out the same unit over and over, of course you need a variety, I meant cranking out units in general. I'm not saying that all RTS games are victim to this, but a lot of them are.
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
39,332
Location
Florida, US
Unfortunately, it isn't the demands of tactics that are keeping your stripes safe, Sammy, it's the things that are easy for you and hard for me--the reason I don't like most RTS is the rushing and unit cranking. I like the strategy aspect. It's the frenetic pace I dislike. I'm just not good at changing focus back and forth from individual battles to resource and base building five or ten times a minute, micromanaging all the things you have to micromanage to throw units out fast enough to survive long enough to learn the proper strategy to use the damn units and resources effectively...if you follow. So you are totally right in that I don't have what it takes to be a master at RTS. :)
You, young lady, are too lazy to play The Witcher. ;)
Yes, I know, I know, but there's no reason to let reality get in the way of a good line
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
13,545
Location
Illinois, USA
Dte, you've been arguing politics too much; you're starting to think like a campaign strategist. ;)
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
7,834
There are a couple of things going on in this article:
1) He's mostly right that the genre is lighter on strategy and heavier on tactics, in the classical sense. However, he seems to be only considering the Mass and Crash variety of games such as the AoE series and Starcraft. There are other flavors that alter the formula quite significantly, such as Warcraft, Kohan, Total War, Mark of Chaos, Spellforce, Company of Heroes, etc. The genre has not stood still for a long time as he claims. There's been lots of innovation. Maybe not in a way that appeals to him. But in ways that are considerable.

2) While I like his suggestions to a point, his claim that this would make RTS more popular in general and more enjoyable is a bit myopic. People enjoy games for different reasons. Rapidly building up an army of cool units and then obliterating your opponent will never go out of style. Believe me. He's really suggesting just expanding on a niche in the RTS market by making it more complex and more of a geo-political simulation than a fun, guns-a-blazin', violence bonanza. That's cool. But not everyone's cup of tea.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
850
Location
CA, USA
Well, apparently someone else shares your opinion --Gamasutra has posted a rebuttal of the original article--see if you like it any better ;):

Gamasutra has just published an article from Nathan Toronto that goes over a lot of the same ground about real-time strategy in a sort of new way. It’s an interesting article purely from a conceptual standpoint, though my first reaction to it was “How many games has this guy actually played?”

Mr. Toronto has a PhD in International Relations from Ohio State, which I guess is supposed to bring some gravitas to his article. I have a PhD in Political Science (International Relations) from the University of Toronto, so I guess I’m qualified to say that Dr. Toronto has it wrong in some pretty important places.

1. Just because it’s in real time and is a strategy game doesn’t mean it’s an RTS. Toronto praises Caesar III as an RTS that forces the player to manage “infrastructure development and physical security”.

But Caesar III is not an RTS, it’s a city-builder. SimCity, not Starcraft. It comes from a different branch of the gaming family tree and therefore arrives with different assumptions about what the game is supposed to mimic. Conventionally understood, the RTS is about building and managing armies.

Yes, there is considerable overlap in some places between the RTS and the city-builder (Majesty and Settlers, for example). By making the acronym purely descriptive, you get into all kinds of messy situations where people try to compare Hearts of Iron to Blitzkrieg 2, which makes as much as sense as comparing Leisure Suit Larry and Baldur’s Gate because both have inventories. Guess what? Most RPGs don’t have any real role-playing, either.

2. Stop calling them real time tactics. I’ve already heard and read this cliche a million times. “There’s no strategy in RTS! It’s all tactics!” Wrong. There is strategy in RTS, the problem is that it’s always the same strategy - produce faster than you consume. How you get to this point can be tactical, but attrition and counter-production is often a military strategy, not a tactic.

In fact, RTS games have very few tactics. In many cases, counters be damned; you can just swarm an opponent with whatever you can make. And a defensive posture is almost always a recipe for failure.

3. The games you want are already out there, dude. Toronto writes:

"The reason that RTS games become RTT games is that they ignore one simple fact: “War is the continuation of policy by other means.” RTS games have done a superb job of simulating war but a lousy job of simulating politics. If RTS games are to be truly strategic, then they need to simulate both war and politics. Why? Because war is politics."

In his overquoted dictum, Clausewitz is not saying that every action taken in war is necessarily political, but that the act of war is. Sending my cavalry to pillage Neuchatel is not necessarily a political act except insofar as it allows me to keep the war going. The big Clausewitzian omission from the RTS isn’t politics, by the way, but “friction”.

Still, complaining that RTS games don’t have elaborate diplomatic engines is like wondering why I can’t call in a hostage negotiator in Half-Life. The RTS is a deathmatch genre, engineered around the “only one must survive” idea.

There are lots of other games that do have deterrence, compellence, alliances, trade pacts, restive populations, etc., many of which move in real time. Why wonder why Rise of Nations doesn’t have threats of violence when Total War does?

In fact, most of Toronto’s suggestions for changes in the RTS can be found in either the Total War games, Paradox’s titles or many turn-based games. Populations you need to keep happy? Yep. Internal opponents? Yep. People who want you for more than your land? Yep. Infrastructure development? Yep.

And what would be added by sticking these on a traditional real time strategy game? Little that I can see that isn’t being done in genres and forms that have evolved around the Starcrafts and Warcrafts.

What would be lost? The lunch hour game. The RTS is designed to be played quickly. It’s not a reflection of history or strategy except on the most simplistic level imaginable.

If you want a deep political and strategic game, the RTS is one of the worst places to look. Most of the time it doesn’t even capture war well, despite what Toronto says.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
7,834
That's actually what I was going to say ='.'=

....before I went off on a tear about the actual tactics & stuff.

My take-home quote is :
Still, complaining that RTS games don’t have elaborate diplomatic engines is like wondering why I can’t call in a hostage negotiator in Half-Life.

My thoughts exactly
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
5,228
Location
San Diego, Ca
Sending my cavalry to pillage Neuchatel is not necessarily a political act except insofar as it allows me to keep the war going.

But people don't realize it as such I suspect !

3. The games you want are already out there, dude.

Plus, I rather would've liked to see certain examples. What he wrote ("Paradox' titles") is too few for me - and especially they aren't widespread, imho.
 
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
21,952
Location
Old Europe
Back
Top Bottom