Thief 4 - First Screen?

I guess the IGN guide is wrong then. But again, i don't approve of their choice to let the difficulty decide this.

It's absolutely not mainstream to give the player choices, i really wish it was. Very few games are unlinear in their design, it's because it's a lot harder to create such games, just bug testing alone (or testing so that players can't take too much advantage of his choices) is almost an endless amount of work, and it's never perfect, though a lot better than restricted hand-holding imo.

I don't know why you keep mentioning hand-holding. The Thief games are about the furthest thing I could think of when it comes to that. You're given an objective, and a very limited supply of tools for the job. Then you're dropped into the missions with little information about how to actually accomplish your goals. The levels are also far from being linear, especially in Thief 2.

Any further debate is probably pointless here, as we seem to have entirely different definitions of certain things. I'm sure we can just agree to disagree.

I haven't played T1 or T2 in the last two years, but I think there's truth in what vurt wrote. I remember at least one level in T2 where not being seen was mission-critical, and killing someone interfered with that. And I *think* I played on easy (because that's what I usually do with all games except those I play at least once a year, and I played those on easy when I played them for the first time, too).

Still, being restricted in this regard forced me to consider alternative routes and methods of succeeding in a mission, and it made the game so creepy in the truest sense of the word.

I wouldn't consider the Thief games RPGish in any way, and I don't mind the restriction at all. When I play a racing game, I expect to be restricted to drive, and I won't complain when I can't walk. If it's a possibility, that might be interesting, even nice, but I don't expect it. Or when it's a slash'em up game, I don't expect someone to use a gun. Unless it's a secret weapon. Or a boss using it, think Tanegashima in Sould Edge. But once again, I wouldn't dislike the game if it did't have the feature if I expected it to be a game about swords.

I didn't dislike T3, on the contrary, it did many things right, but there were places where it just didn't feel as creepy and thievish to me as the first two games. As for T4 … well, I don't know what to expect yet, and so I'll try to go about playing it in a very open-minded way. So for me it's all open, somehow.

Korplem said:

My first time playing T1, I didn't quite get the idea of being stealthy. I wanted to be stealthy but I felt like I didn't have a reason to because I could just run through the first level or two bonking all the guards on the head.

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Yes, I know exactly what you mean, as at times I played Thief Gold the very same way. I remember one map with a very high tower and winding staircase where I was knocking guards out and carrying them to the top of the tower, only to unceremoniously piff their bodies down to the bottom. It was quite amusing to watch the bodies gradually pile up. But could I play the undead levels in a similar carefree fashion? Definitely not! *shivers*.

As to the argument regarding creativity, I tend to lean in JDR's favour there - as I think the tension developed by the game is amazing; it makes your hairs stand on your neck sometimes just creeping around not wanting to be seen or make an error, planning out your every movement gradually and having every pore glued to the sense of where guards are lurking and reacting to that. I'll have to wait until I actually play Thief 3 to see, but if some of this tension is gone - it'll be a shame, as I think it was a staple of the original game.

I think it's a credit to the developers that it was made with such a strong unforgiving sense of gameplay design that simultaneously gave you the freedom to try tactics and ply the various tools of the trade.

Jaz said:

Spoiler

Garrett retired in T3, didn't he?

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Ahh! Spoiler alert!

The tension in T3 is still there - in some missions more so than in others, and then there's the Cradle mission which you will probably find very ... uh ... tense - , but especially the town itself (which was mainly a hub for entering missions) was curiously lacking the stealth game feeling after the first unsuccessful attempt at stealth on my part. You can be stealthy there, sure, but once I failed in a most epic manner and all the guards came running for me, it felt more like a Keystone Cops flick. Leave a level - run across town, being chased by guards- jump into the next level. And so on.

Pessimeister said:

As to the argument regarding creativity, I tend to lean in JDR's favour there - as I think the tension developed by the game is amazing; it makes your hairs stand on your neck sometimes just creeping around not wanting to be seen or make an error, planning out your every movement gradually and having every pore glued to the sense of where guards are lurking and reacting to that. I'll have to wait until I actually play Thief 3 to see, but if some of this tension is gone - it'll be a shame, as I think it was a staple of the original game.

I think it's a credit to the developers that it was made with such a strong unforgiving sense of gameplay design that simultanteously gave you the freedom to try tactics and ply the various tools of the trade.

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I completely agree with this. Well said.

vurt said:

You're a Thief and i think it's up to the player if he wants to play a cold blooded murder/thief or a sneaky Thief. I don't like restrictions or when the devs decides how i should play the game or what person i should be, it's not very creative imo. Plenty of movies and books does that in a much better way and is a better medium for that kind of linear and hand-holding entertainment.

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Let's straighten out the facts here. The Thief games are neither RPGs, nor sandbox games, why should be there an option to play an assassin. Garret's background and story clearly shows, that he is a proffesional, well trained thief, who avoids bloodbath when it is possible. There are still options in how you handle your mission. What route you take (there are several ways thanks to the complex levels), what gear you use. That being sad, you are still able to kill enemies in most part of the game. As you said, there are a few restrictions, but these are good things, I don't know why are you complaining. This just shows that there is a good mission variety in the game, it gives extra challange. Why should be there only missions, where you can kill everybody, whene it much more interesting to finish a level with 0 kills. I've just finished T1 on expert, with 0 kills, and it was very rewarding. If they make an assassin out of Geralt in T4, I will be very dissapointed.

There is a lot more to player freedom and choice than whether or not the player can simply kill anyone who stands in their way or not. The Thief series gives the player a wide variety of freedom, especially when it comes to exploration of the game's levels, finding different routes to reach an objective, and using different tactics however a player sees fit in order to complete missions. To me, it seems like a misunderstanding of "player freedom" to equate the concept purely with open-world, travel-anywhere/anytime mechanics, and whether or not the player can or cannot choose to kill; player freedom goes far deeper than that, as it also ties into the freedom to choose how to play a game, using a diverse range of tools at the player's disposal.

Thief, Splinter Cell, Deus Ex, and the stealth genre in general have mastered the concept of giving certain tools and abilities to players, and then allowing them to use their own creativity and imagination in deciding how to play the game. This freedom and ability to be creative has always been the defining aspect of stealth games that has drawn me to them more than action games.

JDR13 said:

If I want to go "Rambo-style", I'll play Call of Duty.

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I have actually seen a few hack & slash/slay and power-gamers at the Drakensang forums complaining this game was "far too easy" and therefore "utter crap" ...

J_C said:

Let's straighten out the facts here. The Thief games are neither RPGs, nor sandbox games, why should be there an option to play an assassin.

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I don't really like games with a very pre-defined character, that's why i play RPG's mainly. It might be that T1-T2 disapointed me a bit after playing their Ultima Underworld and System Shock games. I probably wanted them to be more in the lines of their older games.

T3 felt more like they were back to their old RPG roots, with shops you could enter and whatnot, and overall just more freedom to the player, the character felt less pre-defined too. For the most part i'll admit i did play it the stealth way, but it was nice to be able to have high difficulty and being able to kill if you wanted.