Dragon Age - The Stolen Throne Novel Announced

quasimodo · January 17, 2009

rune_74 said:
Because it's the easy thing to do. Easy to complain about what is wrong with things. It takes very little effort to say what is wrong with something(in your eyes) and to complain about the industry in general. It takes a hell of a lot more effort to do something about, ie make your own game. It is very easy to be an armchair critic.

Using this criteria only VDWeller would get to complain about things.

screeg · January 17, 2009

GhanBuriGhan said:
if you want to slam something, give your reasons, and if you are yourself a writer, or claim to be one (and obviously think you can do better in this case like screeg here) a bit more than a oneliner might be especially appropriate if you don't simply want to come across as an arrogant prick.

Maybe I sound like (or in fact am) an arrogant prick, but I just can't be bothered, precisely because this isn't a give-and-take forum where the writer will modify his work based on consumer input. Also, there has been the occasional criticism of my work-- those people were of course banned at once...

by the way, if you have been reading my stuff, what do you think?

rune_74 · January 17, 2009

quasimodo said:
Using this criteria only VDWeller would get to complain about things.

I guess I kind of painted that with a broad stroke....he has every right to voice his opinion like anyone else does. However, I find it funny how many think they could do so much better and have done nothing. Doing nothing is very easy to do. Noone can critique your work at all. I wonder what videogames have had award winning writing, I can think of.....lets see .....none.

It's fine to be critical, but I think there is a reasonable level.

Essaliad · January 17, 2009

rune_74 said:
I guess I kind of painted that with a broad stroke....he has every right to voice his opinion like anyone else does. However, I find it funny how many think they could do so much better and have done nothing. Doing nothing is very easy to do. Noone can critique your work at all. I wonder what videogames have had award winning writing, I can think of.....lets see .....none.

It's fine to be critical, but I think there is a reasonable level.

It's fine to protest against criticism, but there's a reasonable level. I see you everywhere, all the time, complaining that people are sooo bitter, why don't people get along, why is everyone so negative, why doesn't everyone just agree with you about games. Flail, whine, flail, temper tantrum.

As for the rest, who's claimed they can do better? What is it about this "videogame writing doesn't win awards!" axe that you keep grinding whether or not it's relevant to a discussion? Is your reading comprehension broken? Are you reading invisible text? Is your frontal lobe warped and would you like a lobotomy, though I'm not sure if there's anything left to remove? Consumers have every right to voice opinions and, what's more, every reason to voice them. Also, look up Ebert's Law.

GhanBuriGhan said:
nor did I find it overly generic. I.e. actually NO elves and dragons and bearded dwarves so far...

Those are confirmed to exist in the Dragon Age setting. Sorry. Undoubtedly, they'll show up in the novel at some point.

Prime Junta · January 17, 2009

rune_74 said:
I guess I kind of painted that with a broad stroke....he has every right to voice his opinion like anyone else does. However, I find it funny how many think they could do so much better and have done nothing. Doing nothing is very easy to do. Noone can critique your work at all. I wonder what videogames have had award winning writing, I can think of.....lets see .....none.

It's fine to be critical, but I think there is a reasonable level.

This is such a bullshit argument that it's not even funny.

GhanBuriGhan · January 17, 2009

screeg said:
Maybe I sound like (or in fact am) an arrogant prick, but I just can't be bothered, precisely because this isn't a give-and-take forum where the writer will modify his work based on consumer input. Also, there has been the occasional criticism of my work-- those people were of course banned at once...

by the way, if you have been reading my stuff, what do you think?

Well, if you want to give feedback you can always do so here: http://dragonage.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=664035&forum=135&sp=270
Although of course it wont be changed anymore, i would assume that Gaider appreciates a thoughtful crtique. It's his first after all. I think he did a reasonable job of combining instant action, setting up the theme for the story, and introducing three not too cliche characters.

As to your stuff I always planned to give a little more feedback - but right now the IT tower site is down anyway, right?

kalniel · January 17, 2009

I'm amazed that there is any cross over between game writing and novel writing at all - that fact that a game dev can actually write a whole book is something in itself - and regardless of the quality of the writing it shows a huge amount of thought and effort has gone into the DA world if he can write a normal sized book about it. Forget the quality of the book, the process of writing it can only have been good for the game.

What other comparisons do we have with the game/novel cross-over? Feist is probably the only one that I can think of that's close, and again while he's not my favourite author, he's certainly well enough regarded.

GhanBuriGhan · January 17, 2009

kalniel said:
I'm amazed that there is any cross over between game writing and novel writing at all - that fact that a game dev can actually write a whole book is something in itself - and regardless of the quality of the writing it shows a huge amount of thought and effort has gone into the DA world if he can write a normal sized book about it. Forget the quality of the book, the process of writing it can only have been good for the game.

What other comparisons do we have with the game/novel cross-over? Feist is probably the only one that I can think of that's close, and again while he's not my favourite author, he's certainly well enough regarded.

Well, Feist was a well established Fantasy Author before his involvement with the Games, so its kind of the other way around there. Bioware apparently did this with Mass Effect already, but I think they hired a writer for the Novel in that case.

DArtagnan · January 17, 2009

kalniel said:
I'm amazed that there is any cross over between game writing and novel writing at all - that fact that a game dev can actually write a whole book is something in itself - and regardless of the quality of the writing it shows a huge amount of thought and effort has gone into the DA world if he can write a normal sized book about it. Forget the quality of the book, the process of writing it can only have been good for the game.

What other comparisons do we have with the game/novel cross-over? Feist is probably the only one that I can think of that's close, and again while he's not my favourite author, he's certainly well enough regarded.

They're trying to establish a franchise, and writing a novel is all part of that effort. Now, as I haven't read the chapter - I can't speak for its quality, but based on the comments here it certainly doesn't seem to be about creative integrity.

Developing this kind of AAA game takes about a hundred people or more, and one dude writing a novel during the space of announcement to release - which is, what, 5-6 years? - isn't exactly a gargantuan effort. It's just another drop in the sea of winning over the audience by every means except actual art. Business is getting in the way, which is why you'll never see a truly novel AAA title for a long, long time.

Prime Junta · January 17, 2009

GhanBuriGhan said:
Well, if you want to give feedback you can always do so here: http://dragonage.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=664035&forum=135&sp=270
Although of course it wont be changed anymore, i would assume that Gaider appreciates a thoughtful crtique. It's his first after all. I think he did a reasonable job of combining instant action, setting up the theme for the story, and introducing three not too cliche characters.

As to your stuff I always planned to give a little more feedback - but right now the IT tower site is down anyway, right?

"Thoughtful, constructive critiques" are only useful if the object being critiqued is subject to improvement, and the individual creating it is demonstrably capable of improving it. If something is irredeemably bad (such as Gaider's writing), the only good thing critique could achieve is having Bioware replace him with someone who can write above the junior-high-school level.

IOW, this doesn't call for a thoughtful critique politely sent to Gaider; if anything, it calls for an open letter sent to the Bioware CEO, or a front-page essay published here.

Yes, video game writing *is* mostly derivative, trite, boring, juvenile crap. But *WHY?* And why can't it be better? *Surely* there are *some* people out there who (a) understand games and (b) write well. Where the hell are they?

Maylander · January 17, 2009

Wow. You'd think people were expecting A Game of Thrones here. Lighten up people - PS:T has the best writing in the history of computer gaming, and even that is nowhere near "serious literature". As far as I'm concerned, this book (like the Mass Effect and Warcraft novels) is merely a way to fill the world a bit with characters, places and history.

It does the job fairly well, but it certainly doesn't affect my decision to buy Dragon Age - I put that on my "to buy" list when it was announced several years ago (five years or so I think).

GhanBuriGhan · January 17, 2009

Prime Junta said:
"Thoughtful, constructive critiques" are only useful if the object being critiqued is subject to improvement, and the individual creating it is demonstrably capable of improving it. If something is irredeemably bad (such as Gaider's writing), the only good thing critique could achieve is having Bioware replace him with someone who can write above the junior-high-school level.

IOW, this doesn't call for a thoughtful critique politely sent to Gaider; if anything, it calls for an open letter sent to the Bioware CEO, or a front-page essay published here.

Yes, video game writing *is* mostly derivative, trite, boring, juvenile crap. But *WHY?* And why can't it be better? *Surely* there are *some* people out there who (a) understand games and (b) write well. Where the hell are they?

Huh, where is this hate for Gaider coming from? Irredeemably bad? Wasn't he writer on KOTOR - I consider that, storywise, one of the better games I played. So where is he demonstrably irredeembably bad? And incapable of improvement?

Essaliad · January 17, 2009

I don't know about irredeemably bad (mediocre, certainly), but incapable of improvement is a definite yes. Look at the writing in BG2. Compare it to the writing in NWN, KotOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect. Would anyone say anything has improved? Even if you like those games, there's not really much variation; many characters are recycled over and over, the plot is the same always, the dialogue always sounds more or less identical. Gaider isn't capable of improvement, or else he's not interested. He just wants to exploit the same formula again and again and again. That's nice if it keeps filling up his bank account, but let's not pretend he's a writer keen on honing his craft or experimenting with techniques or doing anything but churn out the same pubescent tripe he churned out ten years ago.

Oh, here's an excerpt from a short story of his:

So Carth went to her. He slowly made his way down the ramp, his steps becoming more urgent the closer he got to her. He began to run, and suddenly so did she... and as they drew together almost magnetically they sped up until their pace was a desperate sprint. And then finally he swept Revan up into his arms. They embraced, clutching to each other with an exquisite intensity.

And like a wave finally breaking upon the sand, the collected spectators broke into wild applause. The approving roar of the crowd was deafening... but neither Carth nor Revan noticed.

'I'm sorry,' he whispered breathlessly into her ear. 'I don't know how you found out, but I should never have listened to them.'

'Just don't do that again,' she warned him seriously. 'I honestly don't know if I could do that twice.'

'Are... are you sure?' he asked suddenly asked, hesitant. 'About this?'

Revan disengaged slowly from their embrace and looked Carth in the face. Both of their eyes were bleary with joyful tears and really they looked ridiculous. She laughed suddenly and so did he. It felt good to laugh. The audience cheered again, and now they both looked out at the crowd bashfully, waving briefly before looking at each other and laughing giddily once more. 'I don't care what we do,' she said quietly to him. 'We have a destiny ahead of us still. Our story isn't done. Whether it's making babies or more fighting, I don't care so long as you're there with me. Think you can handle that?'

The grin he returned was so gentle and hopeful it made her heart ache. Carth leaned in and finally they kissed. And it was glorious.

Prime Junta · January 17, 2009

GhanBuriGhan said:
Huh, where is this hate for Gaider coming from? Irredeemably bad? Wasn't he writer on KOTOR - I consider that, storywise, one of the better games I played. So where is he demonstrably irredeembably bad? And incapable of improvement?

It was OK storywise; had a nice twist in it. The dialog sucked, though, and the romance was as cringe-inducing as it usually is from Bioware.

Again: what I'm mad about is the fact that writing standards for games are so low: fucking Fallout 3 gets a Writers' Guild nomination, when that kind of writing would never come close to seeing the light of day in TV, cinema, or print. (OK, not counting self-published shoestring-budget stuff, but that's not what Fallout 3 or Dragon Age are, are they now?)

PS. Don't *do* that, Essaliad. It hurts.

Dusk · January 17, 2009

If someone has ever thought David Gaider is a good writer even once, then, I think he/she doesn't read a decent novel. The last Bioware game I played is KotOR. I used to buy their games for game-play not the story. However, if the lack of good writers were just a problem with Bioware, then, it wouldn't have kept me from playing games. However, in fact, in these few years, I played Mask of the Betrayer and the Witcher. The industry seriously lacks good writers.

Essaliad · January 17, 2009

Prime Junta said:
PS. Don't *do* that, Essaliad. It hurts.

=D =D Have some more!

'What's this about?' Revan asked evenly as she drew close.

'Hey, beautiful.' Carth greeted her, but his light tone smacked of falseness and even his grin faltered as she frowned at him.

She nodded towards her door. 'Would you like to come in?'

He looked down at the floor. 'I... can't.'

Revan quailed inside but kept ahold of herself as she turned to face him. 'I've barely seen you this past month. I thought... I thought things would improve after you got back from your debriefing.'

'So did I.' His voice was filled with sadness. Still he refused to look her in the eyes.

Tears welled up, but she fought them off. 'Why are things so awkward now, Carth? Are you... having second thoughts?'

ARE YOU HAVING SECOND THOUGHTS? Yes, yes, Gaider really did write this.

GhanBuriGhan · January 17, 2009

Well, reading that, I have to challenge PJ's other claim - he definitely has improved

DArtagnan · January 17, 2009

Maylander said:
Wow. You'd think people were expecting A Game of Thrones here. Lighten up people - PS:T has the best writing in the history of computer gaming, and even that is nowhere near "serious literature". As far as I'm concerned, this book (like the Mass Effect and Warcraft novels) is merely a way to fill the world a bit with characters, places and history.

It does the job fairly well, but it certainly doesn't affect my decision to buy Dragon Age - I put that on my "to buy" list when it was announced several years ago (five years or so I think).

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree about PS:T. I found it pretentious and verbose. Somewhat like what Obsidian did with NWN2 and MotB. It's fine to have a good idea and a great plot, but don't drown the message in superfluous layers of text.

It's interesting, because someone like Tolkien - who is known for his detailed and elaborate lore, still understood how to form sentences that were at once concise and suitable. I consider him a master of rhetoric, even if I tend to lean towards less stoic material.

DArtagnan · January 17, 2009

Unfortunately, I don't really recall the intricacies of dialogue, but I clearly remember enjoying KoTOR a lot. I even enjoyed the romantic aspect, though I'm perhaps less hard to please where games are concerned. I'm very much a "gameplay mechanics" man, and I rarely expect much from a plot. That said, I prefer the early Bioware stuff to the last couple of games.

txa1265 · January 17, 2009

Prime Junta said:
Urk. Dragon Age interest level down 300 points on open.

Not quite Eragon-level IMO, but still embarrassingly bad. Oh well, perhaps the game has a good character development system. Or something...

Yeah - what he said. I recently finished Brisingr at the urging of my older son ... not worth the effort for any reason other than sharing with my kids (which is definitely a good reason)

Dragon Age - The Stolen Throne Novel Announced

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