RPGWatch Feature: Arcania Review

I guess i read it wrong. Still, no need to be a jerk with the glasses comment…
You didn't read it wrong. Gorath edited the article to remove it and was joking when he made that statement, hence the smilies.
 
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After seeing that casual gamers response to rpgs and then reading this blog from EAlouse, I'm just sad. No more long speeches, just going to go play something halfway decent and forget about how messed up corporations make everything.


BTW, I didn't mention it before, but great review Vox. I liked how you broke down the game into different categories for different types of gamers.
 
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One thing I've always wondered about RPGs. Why do some developers (marketers) feel they have to dumb down RPGs to make them more accessible?

This is imho easy : Only the mass market is able to generate the revenues that have been consumed by the development.

It's a get-the-money-back-we-spent-on-development thing, at least to me.
 
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After seeing that casual gamers response to rpgs and then reading this blog from EAlouse, I'm just sad. No more long speeches, just going to go play something halfway decent and forget about how messed up corporations make everything.

Well, I found deep within the comments something interesting about Warhammer Online.

Written by "EA Louse" :

OK. So some devs tried to blame Games Workshop for all their “restrictions” but that was just bs. Utter bs. Paul Barnett wanted this game to be DARK. The management demanded dark, chaotic settings and ugly ass character models.

[…]

So many other bad examples. Irony? When we did the international releases we were told we needed to make the models prettier because they were too ugly. Gee. Ya think?

This is insofar interesting, as that Arcania did the opposite way : Dark for Europe, colourful for the U.S. (in terms of graphics) …

My source for that : http://www.gamebrood.com/2010/10/13...-and-predicts-eas-next-big-failure-star-wars/

Another thing :

Walter Yarbrough says:
October 13, 2010 at 12:54 pm
No explanation?
We discussed with the community a bunch of ideas, and the community wanted the hardest of hardcore PvP, which is what we delivered.
God that was a long time ago, but I know that was discussed extensively on the Pendragon boards, and certainly in our interviews at the time.
As for Origins, I had left the company by then, not going to speculate.

(Italics by me.) This is just what I know as Pandering to the base

And before it gets even more off topic : I think we need a new thread about this "EA Louse" thing.
 
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not all doom & gloom on the classic RPG front...

thank Arioch for 'Fallout: New Vegas', 'Two Worlds Two', 'Elder Scrolls V', 'Risen 2', 'The Witcher 2' and a potential stormer of an RPG, 'Afterfall', hopefully releasing Q1 next year !

Quote: " it's going to be one of the most complex cRPG games in history"

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/955170-afterfall/47510934
 
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it breaks my heart to see that the official gothic 4 aint gothic at all.
No buy for me after reading the review from RPGwatch.
 
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I just want to point out that the "casual RPG/RPG lite" crowd certainly does exist, just look at Fable. Fable sold a lot of copies, so the market is obviously fairly big. In fact, it sold a lot more than most RPGs.

Anyway, nice review. I'll pick up Arcania soonish.

I'd say. According to VGChartz, Fable II sold 3.8 million. (http://www.vgchartz.com/game.php?id=7636) According to the same site, Mass Effect 1 & 2 sold a combined 4.3 million. So yeah, the market for a lite RPG is definitely there.

I appreciate the review, Vox. I seem to view Arcania a little different from most. I've got it preordered for 360 and am expecting I'll enjoy it a lot - my expectations for what it is, especially in comparison to more 'hardcore' RPGs are low. I expect it to be a fun, exploratory romp. Not much more. I'm open to a liter RPG experience and never really figured it'd be in the Gothic vein. A company in such financial dire straits can't afford to make a niche RPG (like the Gothic series)... they need to approach the sales of Oblivion - which sold 5.3 million+. (combined PS3,360, not counting PC)

The problems I'm having with what Arcania is that it is what the devs needed to make for their situation, not necessarily what ALL devs seem to think needs to be done. It's pretty clear on these forums and elsewhere that everyone seems to think it's got to be black or white. Hardcore or dumb. I'm not really getting why it has to be that way. Maybe these devs see it like that, but I don't. Fact is, there's a whole lot of stupid stuff I'm glad other RPGs have eliminated from the Gothic games. But an equally large amount of awesome things the Gothic series added to RPGs as well.

Although I like the option to sleep in a game, I don't think it should be tied into leveling (oblivion) or a key method of health/mana restoration (gothic). I like it because it makes the game more immersive. If it makes the game frustrating (as you can't just sleep anywhere), it becomes a chore and I don't like it.

If quest texts are translated poorly, then the lack of a helpful quest arrow or minimap can make a game nigh on unplayable. Wandering around for hours to find the thing that was obliquely referred to in a quest description isn't fun either.

Something the Gothics have always done badly, imo, is the combat. It's always been stupidly hard at the beginning then almost ridiculously easy mid-way through the game. For some reason, they want you to fight for those XP. I don't like it that way - I'd way prefer a consistent challenge throughout. Oblivion had the idea that auto-leveling would provide this, but it made it just ridiculous. There needs to be a better way, perhaps an AI where if you come back to a lower level after becoming much more powerful, some higher-level creatures will spawn. Or something. But the combat in Oblivion was very good; satisfying and diverse. Arcania's combat seems like it'll be fun, but more as a diversion. Not really with any depth.

The Gothic games also have had pretty poor animation overall. The jumping and running always looked ridiculous, as did the character animations/emotes during cutscenes or conversations. In fact, most RPGs are pretty poor in this area. Arcania's animation seems better than previous Gothics, but Oblivion/Fallout's was always pretty poor as well. As was Two Worlds'. Mass Effects had great animation though.

Their UI and HUD are abysmal - even right into Risen, which was released last year. In 2003, this could be overlooked (though I still don't understand why it didn't have proper mouse support at that point), but to have a clunky, awkward interface in 2009?? Completely unacceptable.

Things I've always loved about the Gothics and wish they'd kept here: having to craft at a specific location. The ability to steal, with consequence. Some sort of factions in the game.

If there is a future Arcania game, I'd like to see the above, plus:

- skill trees, please. Even simple ones would be nice.
- the ability to walk while blocking, with the option to roll.
- dialog trees that are meaningful and have consequence.

Basically, I'd like to see a game that falls somewhere in between the hardcore and the lightweight. I want some depth and replayability, but I also don't mind some of the evolutionary elements that make games less of a chore to play. Maybe I'm the only one that feels this way, but nonetheless, I think it can be done. Like Vox (or someone..) said, perhaps making some of the more hardcore elements options would be successful. Don't want to have to sleep? Turn it off! Want to have consequences for stealing?? Turn it on! Maybe that's the future... an RPG for all players.

Maybe a game that we've not heard much of will fit that niche - like the Reckoning. Perhaps I'm just wishing too much. :p
 
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@OliverH --- Nice insights. Thank you for posting that. One of the best things about this forum is the number of posts that get you to look at things more deeply anjd from a different perspective.
 
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It doesn't make ultimate business sense why established RPG devs such as Bioware/JoWood/Lionhead etc are going down the casual RPG-lite route when deeper RPG's such as Oblivion & Fallout 3 etc.. are incredibly successful financially, and the potential for awards and subsequent kudos & fame from creating the latest masterpiece is up for grabs as well (which in turn generates even more business & revenue).

Casual RPG's will never get anywhere near the numbers of their much bigger & better cousins in the long term.
 
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I have always believed that things should be optional. On for the "harcore RPG player", off for "light" players.

I think that would fit them all.

Is only much more work, I fear.
 
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It doesn't make ultimate business sense why established RPG devs such as Bioware/JoWood/Lionhead etc are going down the casual RPG-lite route when deeper RPG's such as Oblivion & Fallout 3 etc.. are incredibly successful financially…

I think it does for one big reason - a good lite RPG with less complex systems is probably WAY easier (and hence, way cheaper) to make than a good complex RPG. Lots of complex RPGs fail miserably at being fun. It's the complex ones that don't actually seem very complex (to play) which are good, and thus, successful.

So a lite RPG which is much easier to make probably stands a better chance of being successful since it is cheaper and less dependent on those complex systems intertwining well and more dependent on just being fun to play. At least, that's the way I see it. And for the record, although I think Fable is an RPG-lite, it had a lot of complexity under the surface. Which is exactly why I hated it. If Lionhead had simply said, 'screw it'. Let's make a fun game to play with lots of exploration (and less loading screens)', I think it would have been a better game. But it was still done well enough to attract a lot of buyers.
 
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I think it does for one big reason - a good lite RPG with less complex systems is probably WAY easier to make than a good complex RPG. Lots of complex RPGs fail miserably at being fun.

Like what for example???
 
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Risen, Neverwinter Nights 2, Mass Effect 1, Oblivion (after you realize most areas are carbon copies).
 
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Risen, Oblivion and Mass Effect 1 are NOT complex crpgs.

Neverwinter Nights 2, maybe the addons.

Complex (=party building + stat management + item management + battle tactics + riddles + difficult dungeons) crpgs in my opinion are for example:
Wizardry 6,7,8
Might & Magic 2,3,4,5,6,7
Ultima 6,7
Avernum 1,2,3,4,5,6
Geneforge 1,2,3,4,5
Albion, Amberstar, Ambermoon
Bards Tale 2
 
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You didn't read it wrong. Gorath edited the article to remove it and was joking when he made that statement, hence the smilies.

Getting in a fight with your wife has its way of seeing hostility everywhere... sorry about that I think I was out of line...
 
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@oliverh72: so how come Oblivion & Fallout 3 are two of the most successful games of all time (all genres) ?

The big Dev studios such as Bioware/Bethesda have enormous resource at their disposal so producing dumbed down offerings is both under utilising their staff & talent and false economy.
 
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Getting in a fight with your wife has its way of seeing hostility everywhere… sorry about that I think I was out of line…

NP. It was indeed exactly as Myrthos posted. I assumed both Dhruin and I had overlooked this simple error, but it turned out Dhruin had seen it and added something to catch it.
 
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Risen, Neverwinter Nights 2, Mass Effect 1, Oblivion (after you realize most areas are carbon copies).

As HiddenX already mentioned, these games - except NWN 2- are the mainstream RPG area. The middle ground if you want.

And now it seems as though there's room for another middle ground between Diablo clones and the games mentioned above.
 
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I remember playing Intellivisions D&D games and enjoying every minute. Now I would consider them too basic and I couldln't bring myself to play them again, but at the time it was magic.

Oh wow there IS someone else out there who played some of those intellivision D&D games. You are really correct, those games were MAGIC at the time.

And remember Swords and Serpents by Imagic? That game was a prelude to the whole Gauntlet series.
 
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