Finished Deus Ex: HR - Thoughts.

I've almost finished the game too, and I've gone almost entirely with a non-lethal approach: finally a game that permits that!! It reminds me a lot of Metal Gear Solid 4, even it has its flaws (especially on Deus Ex difficulty)…
The only thing I really didn't like by now are those stupid boss fights: I mean, I concentrate myself on using non-lethal approach, I spent Praxis points on hacking and stealth, I didn't even had armor or lungs augmentations (until 2nd boss), and do I have to do at certain points? I have to eventually fight… Why the hell it has to be so?
The developers did a great job IMHO doing levels with multiple (and secret) way to go through, why didn't they do the same on bosses? Why should I have to just fight? I was forced to lower the difficulty at Easy just in these points, 'cause I was too frustrated...
I hope that my point of view is clear, I'm complaining about boss fights only, but I found the rest of the game just… Awesome! (I loved "social fights" too, a very rare thing these days…)
 
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I forgot to talk about the social fights. That was just awesome, I don't think I ever saw something like that in a game before.
 
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Can't beat the Russian boss, took the implant and was disabled, can't punch him, 3 grenades don't kill him, laser gun is useless, liked this game, but if I can't get past a boss it loses about 3 points on the 10 scale sadly.
 
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The boss fights were the least fun part for me. If I remember correctly I used grenades (EMP I think) to stun him then opened full auto with the large gun. Took 2 or 3 tries. Also think you can pickup the machine gun from a closet just before the boss but could easily be misremembering that.
 
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Can't beat the Russian boss, took the implant and was disabled, can't punch him, 3 grenades don't kill him, laser gun is useless, liked this game, but if I can't get past a boss it loses about 3 points on the 10 scale sadly.

Use grenades/mines (EMP, gas) and a gun. There's ammo, grenades, mines and weapons in the cubes all around the room. Namir prefer to jump over the walls, so it's easy to lose him to plunder the room if you need stuff or hit him while he can't.
 
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Finished the game yesterday, Deus ex diff, non-lethal.

SPOILERS below!

Overall it was an enjoyable experience for me and I consider it a worthy successor to the original.

Worthy mainly because the devs recognized the original´s strengths well and obviously were trying very hard to retain them in DE:HR, in which they succeeded overall. Ability to deal with scenarios in various ways, support for multiple play styles, multiple paths through levels, rewarding exploration and experimentation, in general it´s all there in DE:HR.

Can´t say much about gunplay (though I´d say sound designer(s) did a very good job on weapons), but the basic, minute to minute stealth gameplay felt satisfying (I didn´t use the sticky cover system) and I think AI was good overall.

Social "battles" are a great addition.

Soundtrack is thematically fitting and certainly one of the better ones out there, though probably due to its more ambient-y nature it´s not quite as outstanding as in the first game.

A lot of attention to detail went into the two main hubs and a result are locations with good sense of place/atmosphere, in particular I really like the design of the second one (where also some people actually speak Chinese).

Gameplay contains a lot of detail-y touches as well, some of whose I discovered only quite a bit into the game, like stun guns disabling cameras for some time or enemy bodies shutting down lasers when dragged through them.
Or how about setting a turret to engage hostiles and then taking it to a boss fight?

Also, haven´t got a single crash and the amount of bugs I´ve noticed/experienced was exactly zero. Besides few stutters in hubs here and there it was a remarkably smooth experience when it comes to technical issues.


As usual, I think there´s a variety of shortcomings as well.

Character development and some of the stuff related to it has all kinds of unbalances.
Some augs are nigh useless (hacking analyze add-on, hacking: fortify, most of the stealth enhancer ones, radar upgrade which I actually found to be worse than the default as it rather botches its readability) and some seem to have very limited use (rebreather, jump/land silently).
Also, though I barely tried playing with lethal weapons, aim and recoil augs seem rather diminished by available weapon upgrades and at least on the highest difficulty player isn´t very likely to run´n´gun often anyway.
I think they did a good job with exploration augs like move heavy objects, Icarus landing or punch through walls, as well as with cloaking, disable turrets/robots, double takedown and inventory expansions. Some of these are situational, but usually very handy when the situation arises.
On the other side of the spectrum would be hacking: capture and hacking: stealth because hacking opportunities are waaaay to abundant in this game. The hacking minigame is great, but I was tired playing it over and over about half-way into the game.
Sorta case in its own category is battery system which, considering the relative scarcity of energy boosting items, I´ve found unnecessarily restrictive in the end.
Given some of the other game systems, I understand the rationale behind the implementation, but I still think they should allow players to spend some praxis points on regeneration of at least two more batteries, because as it is, having more than 3 batteries in total is pretty much useless (admittedly having more did come somewhat handy in the last level).
As a side note, though I invested points into CASIE, I´ve found conversations a lot more engaging without the use of pheromones and wouldn´t recommend using them, unless necessary.

When compared to the original, I think there´s too few skills related to weapons and, more importantly, I really miss the either/or aspect in character building present there. Making some augs exclusive with each other would pronounce the choice aspect, could increase the replay value and it could even work as a type of consequence for completing objectives in certain ways.
DE:HR is definitely lighter on RPG elements than the original was in regards to character development.

Not quite sure what to think about the experience system. On one hand it rewards exploration and more considerate general approach, on the other hand I felt like it sorta nudged me into game-y behavior (hacking instead of using a code, checking out vents for bonuses, non-lethal approach). I think I´d prefer experience points being handed only for completed objectives and exploration being rewarding via items, pieces of backstory or Praxis kits. Stuff like ghosting and smooth operator bonuses, as well lethal vs. non-lethal approach might´ve been better to be worked into (or even expanded - like objective not to take down anyone) specific quests like in the Detroit hooker one. I wouldn´t mind a quest where secondary objective would actually be to kill everyone in the way so that players who want to retain their non-lethal integrity couldn´t get it.
Anyway, the differences in exp gains are probably quite miniscule in the current system as most of the rewards do come from completing the objectives, so not that big a deal for me.

Experience points are also way too abundant so (along with the fact there´s a number of useless augs) players´ builds likely end up being very similar in the end, though personally I don´t always find this to be a dramatic problem in games as similar builds in the endgame don´t necessarily mean the characters were developed in the same sequence throughout and partially I feel about DE:HR this way too. The above mentioned either/or element would definitely help here though.

Voice acting I´ve found mostly average, occasionally subpar and Sarif´s "whine-y" mannerisms got annoying after a while.
The exception would be main protagonist whose VA I really liked. Dry and robot-y delivery fits the theme and is well in line with the first game and few of the more emotional moments I actually found rather touching, partially due to the delivery itself, partially due to the contrast it brings into character´s presentation.

Story started well, but it kinda lost its grip about half-way through and became fairly ineffective as a driving force of the progress for me.
The story itself was thematically interesting and has good flow "on paper" I think, I´d blame few presentation aspects for it to not feel very engaging till the end.
First, lack of narrative choices and consequences - putting more decision weight on player´s shoulders would help.
Second, besides the cool dialogue "battles", characters are very limited interaction-wise, feel more like quest kiosks and some of the stuff is sorta left flailing in the wind, like Malik resolution or even Jensen´s personal arc.
The game is sorta front loaded in these two regards and hints at more than it ends up being there.
Third, there´s a lot of e-mails to be read and most of them are boring. Considering how reading most of them is also tied with hacking, I think less might´ve ended up being more in this case.
I also feel the game is too humor-less for its own good, more humor, especially of dry variety would be welcome.
I did like the ending(s) (not so much the level leading to them though).

Boss fights, lol.
I rarely find boss fights to be a big deal in games and I´m probably in the minority liking how sometimes stealth builds get screwed by them.
Taking the player´s control via cutscenes is as annoying as ever, but other than that I´ve always thought playing a stealthy pacifist character shouldn´t mean a game should always cater to such and, after all, even a stealthy pacifists should be prepared for unavoidables, so I can´t say I disliked DE:HR´s boss fights in terms of mechanics. They always seemed too hectic in the beginning, but after a bit of reconnaissance I´ve always found good variety of applicable approaches (the third boss, for example, could be defeated by a single takedown with the right timing). And there´s a certain aug which makes short and straightforward work of all of´em.
They´re still rather arcade-y and the game would be better off without them, but even more of a problem in my book is how meaningless they feel. Antagonists in them have no depth and the outcome is always the same. These fights have very little resonance with the narrative and as such feel tackled on.

At last but not least, and again I´m probably in the minority on this, but I actually think the game is way too long. Basic gameplay-wise, somewhere through the Montreal mission the game depleted most of its level design/combat scenarios tricks and afterwards everything felt just more of the same and formulaic. Changes in the first hub and some other story elements there were pretty cool, the ambush was probably the most gripping combat scenario in the game, Talion A.D. side quest was good. That said, by the second half of Montreal the general feel of tiredness has slowly crept into my playthrough and, the above mentioned bright parts aside, it never let go, quite the opposite when it comes to the last few missions.
I think these things would be less notable in hindsight if the game had delivered an exciting finale, but unfortunately it quite isn´t the case here as the last mission feels rushed and isn´t very good either from story or gameplay points imo.
As I mentioned somewhere above, I like the very end though.
To be fair, the part of why I found the latter parts somewhat tiresome may be ascribed to me playing the game full-time stealthy/non-lethally.
Also, despite all these quibbles, the game does remain fairly consistent throughout and there are no dips in quality comparable to the ones in, say, Bloodlines.

Taking my notes on the story into account, basically I´d probably prefer the game to be about 1/3 shorter in playtime and have a little more reactivity instead.

As usual, negatives took more words than positives, but that´s not how these things are supposed to be weighted :).
The level design and basic/raw gameplay are this game´s main constituents and the game excels in both. Most of the above mentioned shortcomings don´t detract from the overall experience much and in the grand scheme of things all are various shades of minor.
Even though the game eventually wore thin on me, I can easily see myself still being hungry for more in the not-so-far future because games with this kind of gameplay are just so rare and, well, I´ve yet to play the game taking advantage of its
lethal arsenal :).

I don´t think DE:HR surpasses the original, but it´s definitely a game worthy of franchise´s name and as far as 2011 goes I rate it slightly above The Witcher 2.

Also, this video needs to be posted because it´s pretty awesome:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoFe8hRy42o
 
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Okay, delurk (again).

I finished it too. The game aspects were pretty good and faithful to the original, although, I thought, a bit monotonous. There wasn't as much variety as in the original, and exploring didn't feel as rewarding. Otherwise I agree with DeepO on just about all counts above, the boss fights, the (too much) hacking, the social minigame etc. (That first boss fight caught me with my pants down; I didn't even bring anything heavier than a pistol. The others were easy because I started upgrading the bejeezus out of the biggest FG that I could find, even though I played stealth/non-lethal otherwise. Bit of a jarring inconsistency there; a spec ops sneaky spy type hauling a chaingun and a half-dozen boxes of ammo everywhere. But I digress.)

Where I think HR really let down the original is in the writing. DX was a subversive game. You realized pretty early on that the org you're working for isn't... very nice. Then you encounter and fight with, and sometimes against, several other factions. None of them are unequivocally "good" or "bad." You really get to make up your own mind about them. This makes the final choice meaningful.

In HR, OTOH, you're a good little corporate toady right up to the end. The only choice presented by a sympathetic character is the corporate one. In conversations all through the game, you defend your boss's views. All your friends swoon at your boss's feet. The other end choices are presented by a slimy politician (who's *against* corporate interests, how weird and totally un-DX is that?) and a fanatical mass murderer. Besides which, the stories are so implausible they totally wouldn't fly. Oh, and the "neutral" choice is one where you get to out-Osama Osama. Suicide terrorism FTW!

IOW, the original DX was all about questioning the status quo, thinking through the various narratives presented by the Illuminati, the anarchists, and Daedalus/Icarus/Helios. HR is all about being an obedient little toady. It's like fanfic; as if the writers Really Liked DX, but totally missed the point.

In my book, this makes it as badly flawed as Invisible War -- in that, the problems were only with gameplay; in terms of story and ethos, it stayed true to the original.

The Witcher 2, now, that was a worthy sequel. Especially with Iorveth's choice.
 
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At last but not least, and again I´m probably in the minority on this, but I actually think the game is way too long. Basic gameplay-wise, somewhere through the Montreal mission the game depleted most of its level design/combat scenarios tricks and afterwards everything felt just more of the same and formulaic. Changes in the first hub and some other story elements there were pretty cool, the ambush was probably the most gripping combat scenario in the game, Talion A.D. side quest was good. That said, by the second half of Montreal the general feel of tiredness has slowly crept into my playthrough and, the above mentioned bright parts aside, it never let go, quite the opposite when it comes to the last few missions.

I'm not sure if the game was way too long, but I agree 100% about it becoming formulaic towards the end. It was also in Montreal that I started to have to motivate myself to keep playing.

Imo, it really had more to do with variety than length. I would have preferred at least one more "hub" area, but less sidequests.. (some of them were just redundant).

I really enjoyed Singapore though, and I thought the Omega Ranch felt more like Deus Ex than any other section. I was also completely blown away by Hengsha at first…although that feeling wore off as I started to realize that it wasn't as large or interactive as I first believed. Detroit was nicely done..(I enjoyed seeing the many references to real-life locations).. but it was far too small imo.

I would have liked to have seen some type of reference to my non-lethal play style at the end.. something beside the achievements which I couldn't care less about. I also would have appreciated an alternative way to shut down the Hyron Project.

Flaws aside, I still insist that DX:HR was waaaaay better than Invisible war, but I also agree that it falls short of the original.


*Edit* Oh.. and in case you're wondering..

Everyone in Panchaea now sleeps with the fishes. I thought it seemed like the most "canon" choice...although I could be wrong about that.
 
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I finished Deus Ex today (ca. 50 hours) -> a worthy successor to Deus Ex 1.
Nice gameplay mechanics, challenging combat. Some crpg-elements, nice story, choices and consequences - recommended!
 
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I guess I really should get back to replaying the original Deus Ex. I loved it to death, certainly, but I distinctly remember it suffering from several of the same issues, and especially the formulaic approach to levels in the later stages. I've only completed it once, and I remember having a struggle getting through the last levels. Simply not enough variety in the environments and visual style.

About the story, I'm willing to believe I'm wrong - as I honestly don't remember much in the way of details. But my immediate recollection is of an incredibly far-fetched convoluted mess that didn't make a lot of sense. More like a mixture of every single conspiracy theory known to man, presented in a rather dry fashion.

Maybe there's some brilliance there, and I'll have to re-evaluate my opinion based on so many people referencing the original as having a strong story.

I stopped just after reaching Hell's Kitchen a few days ago, as it had already become quite samey. The writing isn't particularly engaging at this point.

However, there are definite strengths to the game that HR is lacking. The most vital are:

Better augmentation system in terms of exclusive choices.

Better energy system that makes more sense and provides a more free playstyle.

Even if it doesn't make much sense, I still prefer the skill system of the original - as it adds more flavor and meaning to development.

I enjoy swimming and exploring underwater environments.

Haven't encountered a boss fight yet, and I can't really remember them. But I suspect they're not silly scripted stuff like in HR.


I think that's about it. I think HR matches or is superior in pretty much every other way. Especially:

Obviously the visuals are better - but I honestly think there's more variety in the atmosphere of the levels. Deus Ex is just…. dark, dark, and more dark.

Ranged combat is infinitely more refined and entertaining.

Hacking system is more interesting and much more entertaining.

The dialogue system is deeper and adds an extra layer to the gameplay.

I think the take-down system, simple as it is, is actually an improvement over the clumsy melee system of the original. I do miss the melee weapons, but the entire combat system of the original is just not well done - and it never was.

The enemy AI is much more realistic, responsive, and most importantly challenging.

Believe it or not, I never thought the music of the original was great. It was good and interesting - but I much prefer the music of HR.


I'm not going to deny that Deus Ex was absolutely fantastic in terms of setting the bar, and creating something very unique. In that way, it probably deserves a lot more respect than DE:HR.

But if you look at the modern gaming industry and the kind of games we're used to seeing these days, I think DE:HR really does deserve some extra leeway. It's actually a very intelligent and refined experience with an enormous amount of passion behind it.

Obviously, there's no way to determine which game is better - as it's all down to subjective stuff - but I must say I don't agree that the original was THAT good.
 
I think everyone's opinions from DeepO onwards are reasonable. Though I am not done yet, I resonate with most of them. However, the game's length is not an issue with me. What's more of an issue is the repetitive gameplay. Especially searching interminable offices, and way too much hacking. Having some of the emails be more odd or funny would have helped.
 
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What's more of an issue is the repetitive gameplay. Especially searching interminable offices, and way too much hacking. Having some of the emails be more odd or funny would have helped.

I agree - some more jokes would be fun.
 
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Hmmm, I'm in Montreal and I find I'm trying to hurry my way through the game now. I was really going slowly in the earlier game. I agree with them needing "something" to keep the game interesting once you have most of the good augs.
 
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Yeah by the end of the game I was playing just to finish it more then out of anything that was driving me forward to keep going. More variety in augmentation would have helped, my first several upgrades were really exciting to get, but by the end I was no longer taking things related to my playstyle but just because they might someday be useful.

I agree some more interesting info in the e-mails/personal secretaries would have been nice. Most of them just contained passwords, which I didn't use because I wanted the hacking xp. I did like however that you could piece together what was going on with the biochips and avoid making a certain mistake if you payed attention to the e-mails though. More of that would have been nice.

Overall still a great game, and I agree with Dart that there are things that the original did better then HR, and things that HR did better then the original.
 
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I did like however that you could piece together what was going on with the biochips and avoid making a certain mistake if you payed attention to the e-mails though. More of that would have been nice.

Yep, I meant to say something like that too. More conspiracies revealed in a series of emails would have helped kept the interest for hacking.
 
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DArtagnan said:
I guess I really should get back to replaying the original Deus Ex. I loved it to death, certainly, but I distinctly remember it suffering from several of the same issues, and especially the formulaic approach to levels in the later stages. I've only completed it once, and I remember having a struggle getting through the last levels. Simply not enough variety in the environments and visual style.
I agree that the original also became formulaic towards the end. Although I think this is to be expected because of the game's core mechanics and design. But there is more variety in the visual aesthetics and level layout than in HR. But to be fair, every game feels pretty formulaic to me and usually from very early on.

DArtagnan said:
About the story, I'm willing to believe I'm wrong - as I honestly don't remember much in the way of details. But my immediate recollection is of an incredibly far-fetched convoluted mess that didn't make a lot of sense. More like a mixture of every single conspiracy theory known to man, presented in a rather dry fashion.

Actually, you are right. But that is precisely the reason why I prefer the original's story. There are just so many more different layers and plots on each of them that HR's storyline seems pretty simple and straight-forward.

And one of the best elements of the original's storyline was that you worked with all the different factions at various points in the game giving you an immediate insight into their methods and goals. This makes the choice at the end a lot more relevant, since the player need not base his decision only what is presented to him at the end but can also reevaluate what he has learned about the different factions in the past. One could even argue that the game's different sections and hubs represent the political ideal and vision of the corresponding factions.

The game also features extracts of literary classics of both fiction and philosophy, lending some areas meaning on a more abstract and contextual level. Although I think this was badly done for the most part, because of either ill choosing of quotes or just too little exposition.

All this is lacking in HR's writing and could have been easily remedied, had the team analyzed the original more thoroughly.

I was actually quite surprised when I realized that I would never really change my allegiance to work together with another faction, especially when considering how nearly everything else in the game was so blatantly "inspired" by the original. For me, this is one of the key aspects of Deus Ex and helps a lot in making the game both memorable and meaningful.

This is one of the things Invisible War does better and is also why I would consider it better than Human Revolution in the story department.
 
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Well I have to say that this has been one of my best gaming experiences in a few years. It is neither a deep nor broad RPG by any stretch of the imagination, but the story, setting, music, atmosphere, and gameplay sets it far above the crowd. Choice of augmentations only matters early on, by the end of the game you have enough praxis points to get almost all augmentations, and certainly all of the important ones.

You can play a psychopath or a pacifist, but these choices have no significant effect on the story, from what I can see. Although it is gratifying (and very cool) when some NPC dialogue reflects your approach. Unfortunately, this only seems to happen in the early missions.

I really like how conspiracy hints are revealed when you thoroughly hack into all emails / pocket secretaries.

BTW, did anyone take the biochip "upgrade" at the LIMB clinic? All evidence pointed towards bad intentions by TYJ, so I didn't upgrade. What happens if you do?

I really liked the alternate paths/augs, although mostly they were superfluous, but just having them was nice. Punching through walls, jumping down from any height, and taking down 2 opponents at one, is dare I say, AWESOME. ;)

There was a bit too much repetition in hacking and exploring endless offices in what was otherwise stellar gameplay. And why would an augmented person have so much trouble with dragged bodies slipping from his fingers?

But it's easy to criticize a lot of details even when the overall experience is great.

I thought the music and ambient sound effects were fantastic, and am looking for a soundtrack CD, or collection of mp3's, but can't find them. Does anyone know if the music is available somewhere?
 
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BTW, did anyone take the biochip "upgrade" at the LIMB clinic? All evidence pointed towards bad intentions by TYJ, so I didn't upgrade. What happens if you do?

Exactly what the cut scene suggests. She turns off all your augments! I did it on my second playthrough just to see. It makes that fight with the augmented leader a hell of a lot tougher - no "see invisable", no dermal armour and no TYPHOON!!!!
 
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Exactly what the cut scene suggests. She turns off all your augments! I did it on my second playthrough just to see. It makes that fight with the augmented leader a hell of a lot tougher - no "see invisable", no dermal armour and no TYPHOON!!!!

But then no problems eh? Turns out I didn't need augs. An EMP grenade plus a few rounds of the grenade launcher, made that boss battle over in seconds. The last one was even easier. Just shoot her with the laser gun…
 
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There was a bit too much repetition in hacking and exploring endless offices in what was otherwise stellar gameplay. And why would an augmented person have so much trouble with dragged bodies slipping from his fingers?

I agree the hacking got stale pretty fast, and so did the office-type rooms/levels. Towards the end of the game I would cringe every time I turned a corner and saw another group of desks I had to rummage through.

And yeah, the physics engine was somewhat poor in regards to dragging bodies. I preferred the way you shouldered people in the original DX.


I thought the music and ambient sound effects were fantastic, and am looking for a soundtrack CD, or collection of mp3's, but can't find them. Does anyone know if the music is available somewhere?

I know the Augmented Edition includes the soundtrack, but I'm not aware of it being sold separately anywhere.
 
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