Shadowrun Returns - Dragonfall Expansion

Then explain why they're calling it a full blown expansion instead of DLC as they originally did.

If there's no indication of size or content - then why? Explain it, please.

I just attempted to, but I'll try to be more clear: "DLC" and "Expansion" are not mutually exclusive terms. An "expansion" is content that you download. "Downloadable content" is an expansion to the content of the game. Any valuations of size or quality that you attach to either term is completely subjective. Ergo, by using the word "expansion" this time, they didn't contradict themselves or change anything.
 
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I just attempted to, but I'll try to be more clear: "DLC" and "Expansion" are not mutually exclusive terms. An "expansion" is content that you download. "Downloadable content" is an expansion to the content of the game. Any valuations of size or quality that you attach to either term is completely subjective. Ergo, by using the word "expansion" this time, they didn't contradict themselves or change anything.

So, you'd consider calling it DLC a contradiction because it adds a new campaign to the game known as Shadowrun that has an integrated editor intended for just such a purpose?

This despite them always referring to the Berlin Campaign as future DLC?

So, when they announce the Berlin campaign is now a full expansion with "added features" they didn't actually change anything - they just announced it for kicks?

You're joking, right?
 
They released the first game extremely fast, no delays. The second expansion will be super big, loaded with features.

Harebrained is doing an exceptional job!
 
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They released the first game extremely fast, no delays. The second expansion will be super big, loaded with features.

Harebrained is doing an exceptional job!

Super big?

Expected playtime?

I'm genuinely curious.
 
Excellent. I was already satisfied with the original game. Sure it was short, but also cost less than half than normal games, so "value per hour" was ok, and then I get an extra campaign for free. Awesome!
 
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Let me know if Berlin is a long campaign, wolfing.
 
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Dart, it seemed to me that JFarrell71 explanation was pretty much spot on, or at least clear to me.

Not sure how else to word it, but basically what he says is that both words CAN BE the same thing. An expansion you download means you have downloaded content...therefore it is a DLC, vice versa.

Size, value, length are subjective. Most people I guess tend to say that what they refer to as DLC are shorter than what they would refer to as an expansion, but that is simply subjective.

Nowhere is there any rule that say a DLC means content that lasts less than X hours and Expansion means more than Y.

Thats not to say the Berlin DLC/Expansion will be worthy of your money or time, thats for you to decide. But all it means is that no matter which word they use, both are true and can apply to what they'll be offering their customers.
 
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With that said, in my case I'm looking forward to Dragonfall. I had fun with Deadman's Switch despite its flaws. It is one of the very few games I enjoyed enough to complete and even started a replay.

Also, I want to see what the community will be able to produce with the new stuff they add with Berlin. There's already some pretty great user content out there.
 
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DLC just means (reversing the acronym, I guess) CONTENT that you can DOWNLOAD. It really is more of a DIGITAL thing than anything else it has come to mean. The term can ONLY EXACTLY mean that it is stuff for your existing program (i.e. 'content') that you can add to your system digitally, either from a network connection or from media (i.e. 'download' which, despite how the vernacular tends to use it, only means to bring a file from somewhere else onto your system and does NOT require a network connection of ANY kind)

In practice, it was coined to refer to getting your additional game content from a network, usually the internet (via WWW or proprietary services like XBOX Live.) It has a tendency to be linked to micro-transactions, and/or to free-to-play models, but those are not 'every and only' defining qualities.

Any further definition BEYOND 'content (for an existing program) that you can load onto your system' is, at best, situational, and typically (at worst) a matter of opinion.

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As for 'expansion', again, all that the term REALLY means is ADDING to something, specifically in reference to game software it CONTINUES ON or INTEGRATES INTO an existing game software. The term was coined to differentiate from sequels, and largely meant to let you know that you almost always need the primary game for the expansion to work (this is NOT always the case, but in those murky, mushy situations it is almost always equally right to call the 'expansion' in question by another term like 'sequel' or 'part of the series' or some such.)

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Why is Harebrained Schemes calling Berlin an 'expansion' and not just DLC (as it will, CLEARLY, be DLC regardless) going forward? Well, from the early days of the ongoing Kickstarter campaign, they called the Berlin DLC "campaign" quite a bit. Once Berlin won as the next city, it kept being called "the Berlin campaign" all the time.

The decision to make it bigger was HERE - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns/posts/571966 - on August 16th.

"We've heard a lot of questions from you wondering what to expect from Berlin. Well, our original plan called for a modest-sized campaign that we could ship by the end of October. However, after listening to your forum discussions and feedback, it became clear that you would like to see something bigger (and so would we). So, we've decided to spend more time on Berlin to create an experience closer to the size of Dead Man’s Switch. A story of that scope will take longer, so we’re targeting January for its release. While we're still in the early stages of development and many things could change, we’d like to share what we’re planning so far. For example - we know that we want our next story to feel more like the player is part of a shadowrunning crew and contain more corporate intrigue."


Of the list of ideas they give about increasing the size of the campaign, they never included "changing the save system."

Why did they stop referring to it just as DLC or campaign and now call it an expansion? It's not a continuation of the campaign from SRR, but you need SRR to run it and they increased it's size and scope. So I'd say that since it requires the original game and is 'large' (relatively - though not as big nor bigger than the original campaign, it is bigger than they initially intended AND will be close in size), expansion was the term they went with as it seems like what would have been typically called expansions in the past.

DLC and expansion, if you used a logic diagram, would have overlapping inclusion circles, groups that had crossover but each could exist outside the other (unless you go with my looser definition of DLC and take download software from a disk to still count as DLC, which I would suggest is probably not the right way to go.) Calling Dragonfall an 'expansion' doesn't stop it from being 'DLC' nor does it have ANYTHING to do with a feature change to the save system which will, retroactively, work with the original campaign as well.
—-
 
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I'm not talking about semantic application, but about being honest with your audience and using the words that best fit according to expectations.

If you want to argue that an expansion could, potentially, be a blue hat for your character in a game - because that's expanded content - go right ahead.

But I'm living in the real world and in the real world, language is flawed and there are expectations when you use certain words.

I'm sure their marketing people would support your bullshit, though ;)

This new campaign was never intended as an extension to the original campaign, it was always going to be something separate. Trying to pass it off as an expansion because they've made it a bit longer is pure marketing opportunism, nothing more.

That's fine with me - and I have no problem with that.

But it is what it is.
 
Looking forward to the new DLC. Although I'm sorta bummed because I voted for Hong Kong over Berlin, but hey - as a backer I'm gonna get new content to play and with the save-anywhere feature now added, I'll probably play the expansion as soon as its available. Yippeee . . . I win. . . .
 
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I'm not talking about semantic application, but about being honest with your audience and using the words that best fit according to expectations.

If you want to argue that an expansion could, potentially, be a blue hat for your character in a game - because that's expanded content - go right ahead.

But I'm living in the real world and in the real world, language is flawed and there are expectations when you use certain words.

I'm sure their marketing people would support your bullshit, though ;)

This new campaign was never intended as an extension to the original campaign, it was always going to be something separate. Trying to pass it off as an expansion because they've made it a bit longer is pure marketing opportunism, nothing more.

That's fine with me - and I have no problem with that.

But it is what it is.

Give it a rest. You don't like the game, we get it. You don't like that they are calling it an expansion. We get it. Continuing to post and push your views on everyone is you bullying your way around.

It may just be me, but I think you have made any kind of point you possibly could have by now. Some of us are interested in it, you are not. Guess it is time to move on.
 
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In my terms it would now be called a "Standalone expansion". From what I have read it will be purchasable/playable without owning dead man switch.
 
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Give it a rest. You don't like the game, we get it. You don't like that they are calling it an expansion. We get it. Continuing to post and push your views on everyone is you bullying your way around.

It may just be me, but I think you have made any kind of point you possibly could have by now. Some of us are interested in it, you are not. Guess it is time to move on.

Dear Rune, it's ok that you don't like me having an opinion and defending it when people challenge it.

I know you're pissed about one thing or another, and you keep trying to bait me with your cute little jabs.

But unfortunately, I don't feel like letting you take control and tell me when not to answer people when they challenge me. If people didn't challenge it, I wouldn't have to make more than a single post.

I have no problem with Shadowrun - I think it's an average game that's cool if you're into linear adventures.

I don't like greed and opportunism, and I like to point it out when I see it. That's not something you're going to change.

I realise the game is popular around here, and I realise I'm annoying because I don't agree with it and talk about my position. That's pretty standard stuff when you're on a public forum. It's like when you endlessly and irrationally defend every stupid decision Bioware makes over and over again. But you're not seeing me telling you to give it a rest, because I respect that you have an opinion - and even if I'm nauseated by it at times - I'm not going to try and control it.

If I'd spent 10 posts glorifying the game, you'd have been fine with it.

That's because you're being irrational and emotionally invested. That's ok, and that's human - but don't expect your weak position to have much influence on mine. Grow up and respect that people don't always agree.
 
In my terms it would now be called a "Standalone expansion". From what I have read it will be purchasable/playable without owning dead man switch.

I don't think so? The campaign pack will have both versions, though.
 
Are gamers these days really this naive, that they would buy some "addition" to a game more often/for more money, if it's called an "extension" instead of "DLC"?

Should be quite clear that you have to examine the inside of a box and not just decide upon the label.
When a keg of beer's labal says it has 50 liters, but only weighs like 30, I won't buy it (for the full price).

And just to add my 2 cents to the terminolgy discussion: if an addition to game makes you play it roughly the same amount of time as the base game, it's imho ok to call it an extension… distributed as DLC. ;)
 
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Are gamers these days really this naive, that they would buy some "addition" to a game more often/for more money, if it's called an "extension" instead of "DLC"?

Should be quite clear that you have to examine the inside of a box and not just decide upon the label.
When a keg of beer's labal says it has 50 liters, but only weighs like 30, I won't buy it (for the full price).

Trust me, there are many, many gamers out there without a clue. The audience is much larger and much more diverse than it used to be.

Now, they won't die because they buy this and expect more than a 5-10 hours campaign, but that doesn't mean it's the honest way to market it.

I know some people think that if you don't do thorough research, you deserve to be punished - but I'm not one of those people.

If DLC has no inherent expectations and expansions have no inherent expectations - then I suppose calling Horse Armor for Oblivion an expansion is A-OK?

If the Council Missions DLC for X-Com was called an expansion, then that'd be ok as well?

Expansions as we used to know them were often integrated directly INTO the main game - like is the case with Diablo 2 and the recent X-Com expansion. Some weren't. So that point is hereby refuted.

I don't care how much bullshit semantics people care to spout: Expansions differ from DLC in the perception of the audience - and it's about having more content and more significant content.

It's true that there's no way to quantify what that means, exactly, and if you're ok with this Shadowrun campaign story being called an expansion - there's no problem.

I have no problem with it, myself - I'm just pointing out that it was called DLC and it's now called an expansion. I'm questioning whether there's a good enough reason for that - and I reserve the right to be sceptical.

That's all.
 
Dart, it seemed to me that JFarrell71 explanation was pretty much spot on, or at least clear to me.

Not sure how else to word it, but basically what he says is that both words CAN BE the same thing. An expansion you download means you have downloaded content…therefore it is a DLC, vice versa.

Size, value, length are subjective. Most people I guess tend to say that what they refer to as DLC are shorter than what they would refer to as an expansion, but that is simply subjective.

Nowhere is there any rule that say a DLC means content that lasts less than X hours and Expansion means more than Y.

Thats not to say the Berlin DLC/Expansion will be worthy of your money or time, thats for you to decide. But all it means is that no matter which word they use, both are true and can apply to what they'll be offering their customers.

I hope you have better luck than I in getting this (fairly straightforward, I thought) point across.
 
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No, your points have all been refuted, that's all.

Of course, if you feel that your opinion is obvious truth and you're annoyed that I don't agree - I can understand why you'd consider ME obtuse.

I have no issue with that and I suggest giving up trying to reason with me.
 
Dart, it seemed to me that JFarrell71 explanation was pretty much spot on, or at least clear to me.

Not sure how else to word it, but basically what he says is that both words CAN BE the same thing. An expansion you download means you have downloaded content…therefore it is a DLC, vice versa.

Size, value, length are subjective. Most people I guess tend to say that what they refer to as DLC are shorter than what they would refer to as an expansion, but that is simply subjective.

Nowhere is there any rule that say a DLC means content that lasts less than X hours and Expansion means more than Y.

Thats not to say the Berlin DLC/Expansion will be worthy of your money or time, thats for you to decide. But all it means is that no matter which word they use, both are true and can apply to what they'll be offering their customers.

Can Horse Armor reasonably be called an expansion?

Obviously they CAN be the same thing - but does that mean they're ALWAYS the same thing?

Think about this for a second before writing me off as an idiot.

I'm not saying there's an easy way to quantify it objectively, but I'm saying we have certain expectations when we hear the word "expansion".

I'm not saying YOU can't consider this Shadowrun campaign an expansion.

I'm asking WHY did they change it and is it a GOOD ENOUGH reason? It's a question - not an answer.

Personally, I'm very sceptical - and obviously having bought and played the original Shadowrun game - I feel I have very good reasons for my scepticism.
 
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