Obama chose winning over his word.

That's not even a fraction of the names. The most common is probably "bathroom". I'm kinda partial to slightly less polite choices like "the shitter" and "the pot".

And anyone that says we're off-topic clearly doesn't understand US politics. :p

edit- gads, I can't stop. A creative one we use at work is "the library", but I think the best one was from back in college, where it was "the crapatorium".
 
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All this shows me is that Obama has what it takes to win. Did you actually expect him to just turn away from his massive warchest just to uphold some thin notion of "integrity"? All because of some campaign finance minutia that your average Joe couldn't care less about?

This is gonna be a nasty street brawl and he knows it. Obama needs every advantage he could get. He's not only going up against the Republicans, but also the closet racists within his own party who like nothing better than to see him fail.

And trust me folks. Its going to get ugly. We are sooo not over racism in this country. They are going to come out of woodwork now. Even people that would surprise you. People you know that you thought were "fair". But now when it seems like its actually possible they could be led by a black man, the repressed superiority/entitlement gene comes out and they claim to "distrust" Obama when its really just plain racism.

This also manifests itself in unrealistic challenges and gauntlets they'd expect Obama to pass while giving a white candidate a "pass". Example: The flag pin, bashing his wife.
 
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You might be right. I'd counter the "repressed racism" claim with a "subtle race card" claim, though. Anybody that sneezes in Obama's direction is going to be branded a closet racist by certain people. That will make traditional mud-slinging campaigns completely impossible for McCain while Obama will be safe to fling away. That may be sufficient to offset the losses from closet bigots, which I don't deny is real.

To my mind, the first person to mention race loses the "moral high ground", even if it's Obama.
 
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And trust me folks. Its going to get ugly. We are sooo not over racism in this country. They are going to come out of woodwork now. Even people that would surprise you. People you know that you thought were "fair". But now when it seems like its actually possible they could be led by a black man, the repressed superiority/entitlement gene comes out and they claim to "distrust" Obama when its really just plain racism.

I agree with what you're saying but at the same time I think McCain has almost as much going against him because of his age. I couldn't count how many people I've heard make negative comments about his age and say there's no way a man who would be 72 by the time he's sworn in should be President. Obama also benefited greatly from the fact that many people voted against Hillary Clinton for the simple fact that they were ignorant enough to believe that a woman shouldn't\couldn't be President.

And why is Obama constantly refered to as a "black man" and never as a man of "mixed heritage" which is what he is? Or better yet, why can't we just refer to him as a man?

I think we all know the media has made far too big a deal out of the whole thing, and they're partially to blame for racism refusing to die out.
 
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Are you calling me on those McFossil comments, JDR? And many people voted against Hillary because they were smart enough to believe a Clinton couldn't/shouldn't be president. ;)

Seriously, I've seen a lot more references lately to Obama as biracial, which is far more accurate. I don't ever think of him in my mind's eye as anything but a man, but I'm not the media.

The focus on race is mostly a big distraction, but it reminds me of some of the stages you have to put up with when raising a child. You kind of shut your ears and wait for them to make sense. Talking about race however contentiously or occasionally stupidly is far preferable to sweeping it under the rug into a bunch of coded language.

@dte--you forgot my grandparent's favorite euphemism--the throne. Also the head, the ladies room/little boy's room and my favorite when said with snotty nasal drawl; 'the commode.'
 
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Sounds like you're really buying into Obama's "change" speeches. How do we know that there would actually be any change at all? How do we know that it would be positive? And why does everyone around here seem to think that there would be no change with McCain?


Maybe because of the fact that he votes in favor of Bush policies 90% of the time ?
 
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That's your last personal attack. You're done here, pal.
 
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All this shows me is that Obama has what it takes to win. Did you actually expect him to just turn away from his massive warchest just to uphold some thin notion of "integrity"? All because of some campaign finance minutia that your average Joe couldn't care less about?

This is gonna be a nasty street brawl and he knows it. Obama needs every advantage he could get. He's not only going up against the Republicans, but also the closet racists within his own party who like nothing better than to see him fail.

Can't agree with you more elkston! The trouble for Democrates (as I see it) is that vast majority of their recent candidates (with exception of Clinton) were quite "wussy" and could never really stand up to the street brawl tactics of Republicans. 90% of the time they were on the deffence and a step behind their opponents.
It looks to me like Obama might be a refreshing change in this field as well!
 
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Can't agree with you more elkston! The trouble for Democrates (as I see it) is that vast majority of their recent candidates (with exception of Clinton) were quite "wussy" and could never really stand up to the street brawl tactics of Republicans. 90% of the time they were on the deffence and a step behind their opponents.
It looks to me like Obama might be a refreshing change in this field as well!

Yep, nobody comes up through the mudfights of Chicago politics without learning how to fight back. Axelrod is a great asset when it comes to this, having been Mayor Daly's pr man. As I've said, under the rainbows and unicorns is a very practical and intelligent man, who still seems able to connect to and believe in his ideals.
 
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On a related note, I've already said the campaign financing issue is a no brainer and doesn't bother me, but I'm a little more concerned about this upcoming inter-party firestorm Obama's looking at:

Obama Backs FISA Compromise
Personally I've always thought the facism level of this bill to be somewhat over-rated, as I imagine this kind of thing is done routinely anyway, but it's a big issue for the far left in the donkey party, as in this:

MoveOn to Obama:Keep your Word, Fillibuster Telecom Immunity

And over at the MoveOn.org site they are saying this:

Last year, after phone calls from MoveOn members and others, Obama went so far as to vow to "support a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies." We need him to honor that promise.

To me this is the biggest issue crisis Obama's faced post-Hillary, and I'll be very interested to see how he handles it.

The bad thing about it is this is a very muddy issue, yet a prominent enough one to be fairly familiar to the man on the street, and one which despite being intricate, has very clear sides.

To me it's a lose/lose almost anyway you look at it--he caves along with the rest of his party and MoveOn, one of his earliest supporters, realizes they don't own him and start bad-mouthing him (with reason, I think) and the Repubs point out once again he's breaking his word.

On the other, he mounts a high profile protest(since he is not president yet folks, just another vote on the Senate floor on this basically) and again looks "soft" on terrorism and as if he's too "radical" and far left and gives the Republicans that talking point.

As I say, I don't see how he can come out of this smelling of his usual roses and rainbows, and I'll be somewhat disappointed if he completely caves to either side of the debate. On the whole though, I think he needs to lean toward the side of keeping his campaign promise on this one.
 
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Well, just like you have said it is "no win" scenario and not the last one Obama will be facing. But it will be interesting to see just how he will cope with this since mettle of a candidate is best tested on just such issues. After all no brainers require no skills at all :biggrin:
 
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Sounds like you're really buying into Obama's "change" speeches. How do we know that there would actually be any change at all? How do we know that it would be positive? And why does everyone around here seem to think that there would be no change with McCain?

Nobody ever knows anything. From the attitidues and policies he espouses and the image of himself that he projects I feel more hopeful of positive change from him than from anyone else.

I could say it sounds like you're really determined to deny and disbelieve Obama's change speeches. Always hard to tell who's being irrational and who's being objective ;)

Out of interest what's the change with McCain? He's got a better record on the environment, is there anything else?

EDIT - aside from the fact that he's not a total idiot like Bush of course. Although that could just mean he'd be inventively destructive rather than moronically destructive.
 
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Two years into the Clinton presidency, most people didn't feel that their lives had improved. Shortly before the 1994 election, the centerpiece of Clinton's campaign--the promise to enact health care reform--collapsed in the face of Republican opposition and Clinton's own willingness to bargain away his proposals.

Okay, so . . . . the last time a democrat tried to change things they had to give up because the republicans made it impossible . . . fair enough, that means that for all Obama wants to make a difference he might fail to.

Still, isn't it a better shot voting for and supporting the candidate and the party that wants to change things even if he can't rather than voting to support the people blocking any progress?
 
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Anybody that sneezes in Obama's direction is going to be branded a closet racist by certain people. .

He's been very restrained in playing the race card so far hasn't he? Hopefully that'll continue.
 
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I could say it sounds like you're really determined to deny and disbelieve Obama's change speeches. Always hard to tell who's being irrational and who's being objective ;)

Sure you could say that, you would just be wrong.

Out of interest what's the change with McCain? He's got a better record on the environment, is there anything else?

A hell of a lot more experience in politics.
 
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Sure you could say that, you would just be wrong.

Ah, such open mindedness. They can't see my reality so it must be them that's wrong.

A hell of a lot more experience in politics.

How is that a change from Bush? He's been paddling in the cesspool quite long enough by this point.
 
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Ah, such open mindedness. They can't see my reality so it must be them that's wrong.

Doesn't sound like you have a clue. I was simply responding to your comment about me being "determined to deny and disbelieve Obama's change speeches."


How is that a change from Bush? He's been paddling in the cesspool quite long enough by this point.

Of course, Bush and McCain are the exact same person!
 
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Doesn't sound like you have a clue. I was simply responding to your comment about me being "determined to deny and disbelieve Obama's change speeches."

I was accepting that I through my existing conditioning, prejudices and biases am predisposed to obama and what he offers and so could well be, as you said, "buying into his change speeches" rather than objectively analysing the information and deciding rationally that he is the best man for change (and indeed would be most likely be inventing rational justifications after the fact to support me believing what I already want to believe).

And I was suggesting that you might similarly be predisposed to distrust anything that he says through your programming and so be instinctively suspicious of his change speeches and (albeit subconsciously) determined to disbelieve them and fabricating whatever "logical" analysis you need to support that.

My apologies if that wasn't where you were going with "sounds like you're really buying into obama's change speeches", I'd assumed that was what you were implying and don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that you have unconscious biases of your own, after all everyone does.

Of course, Bush and McCain are the exact same person!

I'm not saying they are. I asked, with a genuine desire to find out, "Out of interest what's the change with McCain? He's got a better record on the environment, is there anything else? ". I don't think that "more experience in politics" is a real differentiator from Bush personally, is there anything else? At the moment the majority of the coverage I see (at least by the time it's passed through my personal reality filters that may well not be objective in spite of my best efforts) seems to support my view that there's not much in it, but I am genuinely interested to hear alternative views and the reasoning behind them :)
 
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I'm not saying they are. I asked, with a genuine desire to find out, "Out of interest what's the change with McCain? He's got a better record on the environment, is there anything else? ". I don't think that "more experience in politics" is a real differentiator from Bush personally, is there anything else? At the moment the majority of the coverage I see (at least by the time it's passed through my personal reality filters that may well not be objective in spite of my best efforts) seems to support my view that there's not much in it, but I am genuinely interested to hear alternative views and the reasoning behind them :)


I have nothing against Obama, but I'm not too keen on voting for a 46 year old who didn't even enter politics until 1997. To keep this brief, I simply believe McCain could better handle this country in the current state that it's in, especially the Iraq situation.

When you talk about "unconscious biases", maybe there are when it comes to Obama's age and experience\resume. I'm going to vote for who I believe is the most qualified candidate. I certainly hope you weren't trying to play the race card with me.
 
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