HiddenX

The Elder Spy
Staff Member
Original Sin Donor
Original Sin 2 Donor
Joined
October 18, 2006
Messages
20,078
Location
Germany
What do you think about this war?

I agree mostly with this article from the Guardian:


Jonathan Freedland:
Israel’s fears are real, but this Gaza war is utterly self-defeating

Israel’s fears are real, but this Gaza war is utterly self-defeating
Palestinians and Israelis are saddled with leaders who with every move make their people less, not more, secure.

An old foreign correspondent friend of mine, once based in Jerusalem, has turned to blogging. As the story he used to cover flared up once more, he wrote: “This conflict is the political equivalent of LSD – distorting the senses of all those who come into contact with it, and sending them crazy.” He was speaking chiefly of those who debate the issue from afar: the passions that are stirred, the bitterness and loathing that spew forth, especially online, of a kind rarely glimpsed when faraway wars are discussed. While an acid trip usually comes in lurid colours, here it induces a tendency to monochrome: one side is pure good, the other pure evil – with not a shade of grey in sight.

But the LSD effect also seems to afflict the participants in the conflict. They too can act crazy, taking steps that harm not only their enemy but themselves. Again and again, their actions are self-defeating.

Start with Israel – and not with the politicians and generals, but ordinary Israelis. Right now they are filled with the burning sense that the world does not understand them, and even hates them. They know Israel is being projected on the world’s TV screens and front pages as a callous, brutal monster, pounding the Gaza strip with artillery fire that hits schools, hospitals and civilian homes. They know what it looks like – but they desperately want the world to see what they see.

In their eyes, they are only doing what any country – or person, for that matter – would do in the same position. They ask what exactly would Britain do if enemy rockets were landing on our towns and villages. Would we shrug our shoulders, keep calm and carry on – or would we hit back?

But it’s not the rockets that frighten them most. Israelis focus more on the hidden tunnels dug under the Gaza border, apparently designed to allow Hamas militants to emerge above ground and mount raids on Israeli border villages and kibbutzim, killing or snatching as many civilians as they can. Israel’s Iron Dome technology can zap incoming rockets from the sky, but what protection is there against a man emerging from a tunnel in the dark determined to kill you? The fact that tranquillisers and handcuffs were reportedly found in those tunnels, ready to subdue Israeli captives, only leaves Israelis more terrified.

This is why they wanted their government to hit back hard: remember, it was the discovery of the tunnels that prompted the ground offensive. Some Israelis see the terrible images of Palestinian suffering – children losing their limbs, their lives or their parents – and they want the world to see it as they do: that Hamas shares in the blame for those cruel deaths, because it does so little to protect its civilians.

You might discount the argument that Hamas fights its war from civilian areas (replying that it’s hardly going to locate itself in open ground, wearing a target on its back). But the UN itself has condemned Hamas for stashing rockets in a UN school. And in the quiet years, when Hamas finally got hold of long-demanded concrete, it used it not to build bomb shelters for ordinary Gazans, but those tunnels to attack Israel, and bunkers for the organisation’s top brass.

I know that every one of those points can be challenged. The point is not that they represent unarguable truth but that they come close to how many – not all – Israelis feel. They believe they face in Hamas an enemy that is both explicitly committed – by charter – to Israel’s eradication, and cavalier about the safety of the Palestinian people it rules. They fear Hamas, its tunnels and its rockets, and they want security.

But here is where the madness kicks in. Israelis want security, yet their government’s actions will give it no security. On the contrary, they are utterly self-defeating.

That’s true on the baldest possible measure. More Israelis have died in the operation to tackle the Hamas threat than have died from the Hamas threat, at least over the past five years. Put another way, to address the risk that hypothetical Israeli soldiers might be kidnapped, 33 actual Israeli soldiers have died. Never before have international airlines suspended flights into Israel’s national airport. But they did this week, a move that struck a neuralgic spot in the Israeli psyche: if disaster struck, there’d be no escape. (That’s long been true of Gaza, of course.)

Before the current round of violence, the West Bank had been relatively quiet for years. Friday saw a “day of rage,” with several Palestinians killed and talk of a third intifada. An operation designed to make Israel more secure has made it much less.

If that is true now – with the prospect of an uprising encompassing not just the West Bank but some of the 1.7 million Palestinian citizens of Israel as well – it’s truer still in the future. For every one of those Gazan children – their lives broken by pain and bloodshed three times in the past six years – will surely grow up with a heart hardened against Israel, some of them bent on revenge. In trying to crush today’s enemy, Israel has reared the enemy of tomorrow.

Security requires more than walls and tanks. It requires alliances and support. Yet every day Israel is seen to be battering Gaza, its reservoir of world sympathy drops a little lower. And that is to reckon without the impact of this violence on Israel’s own moral fibre. After 47 years of occupation and even more years of conflict, the constant demonisation of the enemy is having a corrosive effect: witness the “Sderot cinema”, the Israelis gathering in lawn chairs on a border hilltop to munch popcorn and watch missiles rain down on Gaza. No nation can regard itself as secure when its ethical moorings come loose.

The only real security is political, not military. It comes through negotiation, not artillery fire. In the years of quiet this should have been the Israeli goal. Instead, every opening was obstructed, every opportunity spurned.

And the tendency to self-harm is not confined to Israel. Hamas may have reasserted itself by this conflict, renewing its image as the champion of Palestinian resistance. But it’s come at a terrible price. After an escalation that was as much Hamas’s choice as Israel’s, 800 Palestinians are now dead, 5,400 are injured and tens of thousands have been displaced. For those Palestinians yearning for a state that will include the West Bank, that goal has been rendered even more remote: what, Israelis ask, if the West Bank becomes another Gaza, within even closer firing range of Ben Gurion airport?

This is the perverse landscape in which both Israelis and Palestinians find themselves. They are led by men who hear their fear and fury – and whose every action digs both peoples deeper into despair.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
20,078
Location
Germany
I think the Gaza Palestinians are limited economically and this isn't just a war of religion for them.

I think Israel has seized upon this moment to take out some longstanding frustration in regard to Gaza tunnels and artillery sites.

I think the western media is so pathetically biased in favor of Israel that I stop listening whenever the topic is brought up on TV; if this were any other country, there would be screams of bloody murder with all the civilians dead.
 
Joined
Nov 10, 2008
Messages
5,980
Location
Florida, USA
"The only real security is political, not military. It comes through negotiation, not artillery fire. In the years of quiet this should have been the Israeli goal. Instead, every opening was obstructed, every opportunity spurned."
This is THE important bit! Over and over again Israel's politicians words of peace and two state solution were at complete odds with their deeds of land grab and settlement building. And yet western world let them get away with it over and over again...
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,721
It seems to me that the USA has not much influence on Israel anymore and Egypt cannot moderate Palestine anymore.
New regional powers like Turkey (-> Erdogan) don't help much, because the add fuel to the fire.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
20,078
Location
Germany
Well, I have said it before that US-Israeli relations was always one of those rare cases of tail wagging the dog you are right though. Upheavals in Middle East certainly made difficult situation even more difficult. And Turkey's role is ambivalent to say the least.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,721
I think the article is spot-on.

I'm generally pro-Israeli, but they've not done anything right for the past 7 years or so.

In times of peace, they've not done as much as they should have in the West Bank to make Gazans want to be like that.

Instead they kept the people in the West Bank where they were and lose land while Gazans couldn't get a better life either.

In the long-term this will not be tenable for Israel...

On the other side, you do still have the problem that Hamas has as its main objective the destruction of Israel. That doesn't help much when negotiating.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
9,195
Location
Manchester, United Kingdom
I agree about Hamas Pladio but it wasn't Hamas who started it this time was it?
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,721
Its a horrible situation all around that neither side makes much better. Israel, which obviously has the stronger position (militarily speaking) thus bears the responsibility of changing the course of the conflict, but instead of doing constructive things, they do things like continue to build settlements (or ignore the already illegal ones) in places like the west bank.

I used to be very pro-Israel, and while I do have a lot of sympathy for the general Israeli population, everything in the past decade has made me believe that the Israeli government is not interested in any type of solution that would be acceptable to the Palestinian people.

Its a very sad state of affairs.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,354
Location
Austin, TX
I agree about Hamas Pladio but it wasn't Hamas who started it this time was it?


Don't care much about who started it as you can say whatever you want depending on the timeframe you pick.

For example pro-Israelis say Hamas started it by having kidnapped and killed three Israeli teenagers.

It doesn't really matter though. The point is the same, both sides are only looking at the short term benefits of this. And on top of that they're both looking after their own interests.

Conflict fuels hatred which keeps nationalistic governments in power.

Edit:

I agree with bn
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
9,195
Location
Manchester, United Kingdom
War! War never ends, huh? To quote something familiar.

It's the hypocrisy i can't stand. Especially when innocent people(kids) die and the option to avoid it is there. Like the airplane in Ukraine and so many in Gaza.
 
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
457
Location
athens
I tend to sit on the fence somewhat and point fingers at both sides - Israel for being overly hawkish and continuing to build settlements, blockade Gaza etc, Hamas for baiting them even though they know there will be dire consequences with much loss of life. There is *huge* outrage in South Africa (where I'm from) - essentially anti-Israel (mostly driven by our sizable muslim population, well they're very vocal…) I understand Israels' need to defend itself - any country would do likewise I think…but I think they can afford to be more magnanimous and make bigger and more dramatic conciliatory gestures - they have so much compared to Gaza (infrastructure, technology, military power…). Start by reining in their miltant settlers (who seem as rabid as any jihadists), stopping settlements…WTF…they know it's like waving a red flag, but it continues unabated. The problem ultimately seems to be a lack of desire to share that space - if you squeeze people into huge ghetto cities it can only breed hatred and resentment. I don't have the answers, but there seems to be little will on either side to resolve things - people love nursing their hatred. And each new victim causes new anger and resentment. That said, why the Y%#!! did people vote Hamas into power? That's 'a definite F-U to Israel…which they must have know would only end badly. Also, I really believe that *if* Hamas had better tech (which they may get at some point?) they would gleefully slaughter hundreds of Israelis - some people seem to think that as 'freedom fighters' they can't really be blamed. etc etc. *everyone* throwing missiles/shit across the border (in either direction) shares blame. Someone needs to step up to the plate and make *real and dramatic* concessions , that cost them…seems little chance of that though, while people cling to their old bitterness. I the interim every day folk continue to die needlessly. Its sad and so…predictable.
 
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
2,146
Location
Cape Town, South Africa
Israel obviously isn't innocent in this whole thing but I honestly don't know why they haven't gone all out on Palestine yet. If the US had a neighbor that sent rockets into our cities and a fairly regular basis we'd have invaded them long ago. Look at what we did when 2 towers were bombed. Israel has been dealing with far worse for much longer. Is it exactly the same? Of course not. But I find it unlikely that if the US was in Isreal's shoes we'd have tolerated it as long as they have. And I think this is a big reason why the US' influence on Israel on the subject of national security is no longer very strong.

A lot of the extremists in the Middle East will not accept anything but exactly what they want and it makes peace pretty much impossible. Hamas really isn't interested in peace as they've continued to demonstrate through terrorist support or their own actions. Even if they were I'd expect individuals to continue to use Palestine as ground zero for launching attacks against Israel unless Hamas decided to crack down on their own people which is unlikely at this point. Neither government is willing to make and execute a viable treaty so decisive military action is the remaining option.
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Messages
831
Location
North Carolina, US
And what sort of an outcome of such an all out military action would you consider "decisive"?
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,721
Let's send DArtagnan over there to speak to them. By the time he's finished, they'll have forgotten why they were even fighting. ;)
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
39,413
Location
Florida, US
From Israel's standpoint the obvious main issue is Hamas so decisive military action has to be centered on a short-term goal of removal of Hamas from power in Gaza with a plan for long-term peace. There are a handful of options here.

1) Seizure of Gaza followed by a long-term occupation. There's a lot of growing support for such a move in Israel's government and I'd say this is the most likely approach. The plan probably won't help the situation in the short-term (and possibly long-term) as the move would galvanize opposition. It does however fit with Israel's aggressive support of settlements and decreasing tolerance for rocket attacks. Long-term such a play could go either way. When you're a foreign invader it is imperative that you conduct yourself in a professional manner as abuses give ammo to resistance groups for recruiting which continues the cycle. If they manage to control problematic behavior and start to ease long standing restrictions against Gaza in exchange for reduced violence it's a good step towards addressing the current status quo which isn't productive for either side. Improved living conditions could do a lot to reduce violence against Israel.

2) Seizure of Gaza with a plan to turn the area over to Fatah. This is a mixed bag. On the one hand Fatah has proven to much more willing to work with Israel and the West Bank is far more stable than Gaza. However, Fatah lost the election in Gaza and then failed to seize Gaza with the US's backing. There's potential for reduced violence as well as galvanized support against Israel.

3) Removal of Hamas from power in Gaza with the intent to leave it as an independent area (i.e. not give it to Fatah but not plan for a long-term occupation). This is a big risk big reward type gamble. There's potential for an organization willing to work with Israel to come into power and if Israel is willing to work with them it would be a win for both sides. I'm not familiar enough with the parties to give a well-educated proposal here but there could be potential with Al-Mustaqbal if they could forge a unified vision. There's also a good chance that the resulting power vacuum installs a new government that just keeps the status quo making losses incurred a waste.

Seizing a buffer zone is another possibility but one with too many flaws to be worth the effort imo. It's a half step that fails to address the main problem while stirring up more animosity and could be undermined by terrorist tunnels.

I realize all of this makes peace seem like the best option (which in the perfect world it is) but the current reality simply prevents it. Until there's a change in leadership and direction for one side the real choices are continue to spin the tires in the mud in vain or make an imperfect attempt at getting some forward movement by changing leadership through force.

Will it totally stop the terrorist attacks? Absolutely not. The violence between Israel and Palestine has been going on for decades and the combination of extremists and Israeli reprisals have created a breeding ground for continued violence and it will take real effort and time to fix (and the current situation is merely perpetuating the problem). However there's still a decent chance this will result in less attacks overall and if the level of violence doesn't escalate much it's still a win for Israel's national security.
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Messages
831
Location
North Carolina, US
Let me drop in this short quote from the Jerusalem Post.

" The Western media’s sympathy for Hamas, inciting hatred against Israel by their excessive display of gruesome images of children killed, was completely out of context. That Israel possesses the fire power to level Gaza to the ground, if it intended doing so, was ignored. Rarely did it acknowledge that Israel had accepted cease-fires which Hamas had rejected. Nor that Israel maintained a flow of humanitarian aid, electricity and water to Gaza and that terrorist casualties were treated in Israeli hospitals. In fact, Israel even established a field hospital for the sole purpose of treating Gazan civilians.
The media behaved unconscionably in failing to highlight the fact that most of the civilian casualties in Gaza were incurred because Hamas had ordered women and children to ignore Israeli early warnings to evacuate, obliging them to act as human shields at rocket launching sites and command posts. Schools, hospitals, mosques, and U.N. R.A. headquarters were used to stockpile armaments and launch missiles. By this behavior, Hamas is responsible for every civilian casualty, which is unquestionably defined as war crimes. As Netanyahu stated, “Israel employs missile defense to protect its citizens; Hamas uses its civilians to protect missiles.”
 
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
12,829
Location
Australia
I wondered what was going on with several more wars started up and not a peep out of the Watch members. However, I do realize this a place to get away from reality.

The problem is when all is said and done, common people close to the fighting won't remember who hit first. The victims families will blame the other side as always. The cycle of hatred will continue. Blame America, that's still pretty much in style.

I have to side with Israel on this one. The deal just brokered by Kerry gave all rights to Hamas and everybody knows what will come if that blockade gets lifted. Israel should demand that the Palestinians need to disband Hamas first and then start talks. There is no peace process with a organization that refuses to recognize Israel and is vowed to their destruction. Like it or not, Israel is going nowhere.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
1,397
Location
USA-Michigan
I wondered what was going on with several more wars started up and not a peep out of the Watch members. However, I do realize this a place to get away from reality.

The problem is when all is said and done, common people close to the fighting won't remember who hit first. The victims families will blame the other side as always. The cycle of hatred will continue. Blame America, that's still pretty much in style.

I have to side with Israel on this one. The deal just brokered by Kerry gave all rights to Hamas and everybody knows what will come if that blockade gets lifted. Israel should demand that the Palestinians need to disband Hamas first and then start talks. There is no peace process with a organization that refuses to recognize Israel and is vowed to their destruction. Like it or not, Israel is going nowhere.

Demanding that Hamas be disbanded will simply never work. People could have said the same thing about the IRA and Sein Fein (and remember, they too vowed never to recognize Northern Ireland as a separate entity from Ireland). The only way to defeat Hamas is to take away their support, and the only way to do that is get the people on your side. You don't do that by bombing them into oblivion, bulldozing houses or allowing illegal settlements.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,354
Location
Austin, TX
Well, at this point, there is going to be a lot of bulldozing. I can't dispute what you say about Ireland. The smart folks(including my family) left a hundred years ago.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
1,397
Location
USA-Michigan
Hamas is provoking Israel with mini-rockets and has lured them into a dirty street and tunnel war. (Hamas logic: in street wars technology is less important).
Victims are mostly civilians - Hamas uses this for propaganda.
Hamas and right wing politicians from Israel are building an unholy alliance:
Over the years each of them gives the other side an excuse not to make a peace plan.
But on the long run there's no alternative for peace:
a) Gaza and the West bank needs to controlled bei neutral UN-troops.
b) A democratic Palestine state needs to be established.
c) After one new generation (20 years) living in peace the UN-troops can go.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
20,078
Location
Germany
Back
Top Bottom