Gothic - hardcore or softcore? (split)

Voxclamant said:

I sooooo agree!!!!

The term RPG is now used by so many gamers and developers in so many ways that the term has almost become meaningless.

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http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,186.0.htmlHere is an article from Vince, developer of Age of Decadence, that explains quite nicely what is an RPG. Trouble is, half the games released under the banner today have very few actual RPG elements.

tolknaz said:

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,186.0.html[/URL]Here is an article from Vince, developer of Age of Decadence, that explains quite nicely what is an RPG. Trouble is, half the games released under the banner today have very few actual RPG elements.

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"With shooters it hardly matters who makes them. I'll be surprised if Far Cry 2 won't play like Far Cry 1"

Well, that totally blew his whole argument right from the start.

And most of his "RPGs are/have X" are just his own personal preferences. As is usual with all such arguments.

So Arcania is a softcore game like the Witcher?

BillSeurer said:

And most of his "RPGs are/have X" are just his own personal preferences. As is usual with all such arguments.

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Oh? In my opinion Playing a role in the CRPG context means making decisions fitting your character. is one of the best definitions of a CRPG i've ever seen.

Yes, all hail the great heavy rain rpg. Don't go there, it's a pointless argument.

Here are some visual aids for you on what a casual and hardcore (advanced) board game is:

Casual



or even this



Hardcore (advanced)



or



It's basically the same thing as casual PC game vs a more advanced one. One is easier to play while the other takes some time to get into. Btw, can we drop the whole hardcore label already. They are just more advanced than casual games. Both can be fun.

So kiddies have fun arguing which is better or what is an rpg. It's going to go nowhere and no one will suddenly be swayed by anyone's opinion. As for me, I'm out. I just like posting pictures of board games and don't get too many opportunities to do so.

GothicLena said:

To be clear, while it might be logical to think Casual means players with less time, that is a gross misnomer, its a generally accepted fact Casual means players who want a fun and Entertaining experience without alot of time investment into the games. Just pick up, play for an hour or two, and go back to real life. It might not make sense to some, but that is the definition of it these days.

However I get that for real RPG nerds who spend hours and hours in their games, this all too common trend is a bummer but thats the price to pay for gaming becoming accepted and "Mainstream".

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I don't think time has anything to do with casual vs hardcore.

@tolknaz

Now you got me thinking about Severance! Todd highly recommended it to me after I played G2, and it is still sitting on my shelf... I hope it is playable on XP!

/derail off

tolknaz said:

Oh? In my opinion Playing a role in the CRPG context means making decisions fitting your character. is one of the best definitions of a CRPG i've ever seen.

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Actually, that's so vague you could apply it to almost any genre of games.

The Witcher is definitely more hardcore than Arcania.

JDR13 said:

I don't think time has anything to do with casual vs hardcore.

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I do. Remember that recent blog entry with "investing" into games ? http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11490

Damian Mahadevan said:

The Witcher is definitely more hardcore than Arcania.

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Maybe its just me, but I loved the Combat in Witcher, it wasnt overly complex as Gothics, but it wasnt as simplistic as Fable, it was right in the middle and it felt right to me. Maybe Im crazy for loving Witcher's combat so much.

Alrik Fassbauer said:

I do. Remember that recent blog entry with "investing" into games ? http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11490

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I don't. My gaming time has fluctuated drastically at different periods in my life, but it never had any impact on my taste as a gamer. I speak only for myself though.

RE: "Investing"

That's been my experience, too. But this is not true for everyone, because I think more time is required for certain kinds of games you're not particularly skilled in or are new to the genre…

Wikipedia says:

Hardcore gamer

Casual gamer

A Hardcore crpg is a crpg with a high value (>4 = CRPG heavy) in RPGdot/RPGWatch CRPG-Meter System.

Examples:
CRPG-Heavy:
Drakensang

CRPG:
The Witcher

CRPG:
Gothic 3

CRPG-Heavy:
Geneforge 4

I don't know the exact definition for the casual, but for me it means a gamer who isn't passionate about gaming. This kind of gamer doesn't seek a meaningfull experience. A casual player frustrates when he faces challenge. A casual player quits the server when he gets his ass kicked by better players. A casual player doesn't bother to read a manual. In principle a casual player doesn't want to learn to play. This is just something I will never understand because learning to play a new game is what keeps my going. In addition to that, Solving puzzles, exploring open new worlds, making choises that have meaningfull consequences, getting beated by monsters and returning later when I'm become more powerfull, trying different character builds, learning the game rules…

Heh I feel quite lucky that I began my gaming when games were still made for the gamers by the gamers instead of suits. I pity the teens who will never get to experience the same we have.

Learning, yes, that is the value for me - the interest.

Explains why I almost never replay a game, and have started switching between genres more.

Is that "hardcore" or "classic" - not sure about that.

Did you guys forget about The Witcher's cards? Softcore? I give up.

To be honest, I dont think I really get so called 'hardcores' I mean, no offense but the way they talk about games gives me the impression they are the modern day equivalent of DnD nerds that make their lives revolve around a game so much they take it so seriously and get so passionately angry at what they perceive as idiot casuals (and the game companies that love them) encroaching on their domain.

I mean I realize thats probably not all that accurate, but as I said I dont really understand how people can take games which are made for fun and entertainment and turn it into something so serious that it ceases being a game to them and more like a competitive sport or a RL job. There is also how I dont understand how people can find dying ad nausea from high difficulty until they finally win fun, to me it sounds like banging your head against a brick wall.

I mean I dont begrudge "Hardcores" what they find fun, but I really dont understand it, and I suspect most "casuals" and the Suits at the game publishers dont understand it.

GothicLena said:

To be honest, I dont think I really get so called 'hardcores' I mean, no offense but the way they talk about games gives me the impression they are the modern day equivalent of DnD nerds that make their lives revolve around a game so much they take it so seriously and get so passionately angry at what they perceive as idiot casuals (and the game companies that love them) encroaching on their domain.

I mean I realize thats probably not all that accurate, but as I said I dont really understand how people can take games which are made for fun and entertainment and turn it into something so serious that it ceases being a game to them and more like a competitive sport or a RL job. There is also how I dont understand how people can find dying ad nausea from high difficulty until they finally win fun, to me it sounds like banging your head against a brick wall.

I mean I dont begrudge "Hardcores" what they find fun, but I really dont understand it, and I suspect most "casuals" and the Suits at the game publishers dont understand it.

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Well some people, like me, enjoy challenge in the games, since to me challenge = fun. Because of that I have more fun playing Gothic 2 then Oblivion, I love games like Jagged Alliance 2 that forces me to think before I move, in Company of Heroes I dont like playing against low level opponents but those who are same level of me or higher. I dont like games like Arcania where even on max difficulty I simply cant die, where everything is made to keep me from failing, and add to it a bad story and dialogs whats the point of playing the game.

Now in my opinion there are three types of RPG that have focus of different things:

1. Exploration, games like this focus on exploring the world, if done right other elements like combat or story can be put in second place (Morrowind, old Gothics).

2. Combat, RPG that makes combat their primary focus need to have fun and exciting combat with addition of interesting enemies and good loot. (Mount and Blade, Diablo, Nox)

3. Story, good story and dialogs can make any game fun even if all other elements are sub par. (Mask of the Betrayer, Planescape Torment)

There are games that are good in every department but Arcania failed in every single of them, so why play it if the combat, exploration and story sucks. Now official opinion here is "well it does not suck its just casual" is pretty stupid in my opinion, game is simply bad and saying that its good because there are people with half of a brain that will enjoy it is fundamentally wrong.