Role Play a Game Developer

In the Drakensang forum here on The Watch, Gorath mentioned in passing that Drakensang, while a “damned good game”, had no new innovation. I'm not here to refute that... in fact, in large part, I agree.

This got me to thinking though about Innovation in CRPGs; what it would should could look like; how to implement it; how drastic a departure from the familiar rpg formula we're used to seeing should it be.

I even wonder if it's really needed at all to help sustain the genre.... after all, for the past decade or two, we've found a lot of satisfaction in what have become some pretty standard rpg facets - branching dialogue with stat enhancement, dice rolled combat mechanics (whether RtwP or TB), juicy character development, free roaming vs linear progression, exp and skills points and level ups, etc...[although, strangely enough, it seems that the most basic and rudimentary element of the rpg, that of actual RolePlaying, seems, to me anyway, to have become stunted over the years... this is only my opinion and actually something I’m not at all sad about. It’s open for debate.]

So, there's been enough satisfaction in fact not only to have sated our appetite for crpg adventuring, but also enough to have successfully fostered a continued love affair with the hobby (hell, in my case, a damned near obsession)... so why change anything, right? Why not just tune up and polish to perfection all the basic things we’ve come to expect from a crpg, and make all the parts shinny and new, right? The perfect game, right?

Well, forget about all the hand wringing and over-analyzation... Innovation is just plain good stuff, imo, no matter how you slice it. Well.... hmmm, perhaps one should be a little more cautious... maybe say that the EFFORT to implement innovation is a noble and worthy cause, and that the outcome, if successful, has the chance to make very many people happy, not to mention set a new benchmark in the level of rpg goodness; even though, unfortunately, the OUTCOME many times leaves much to be desired. But try the developers must, I say, and never give up. It is their duty.

Which leads me to the reason for this thread. As end users, we gamers are obliged to basically sit back passively and wait to see what the Devs will offer up in terms of innovating the genre. Imo, we’ve seen a scant few new innovations in crpgs.

So, I’m asking you to imagine yourself as a game developer for a moment, sitting at his/her drawing board, edging to come up with the next big crpg innovation. Ah... haven’t you always wanted to roleplay a Game Developer? I’d like to hear your ideas for innovations, be they crazy, clever, subtle or far-reaching.... what you think would give the standard crpg template a good boot in the a$$.

Come and post your innovations here... maybe something clever and promising may be revealed.

Unless, of course, you really are an indie developer and don’t what to share your secrets... we’ll understand.

You may have noticed that I lamely did not lead off with any ideas myself as OP. To be honest, I have cogitated on this for a few days now (and believe me, as someone who drives for a living, I’ve got plenty of time to cogitate on such things as I roll over the fertile foothills of western Pennsylvania.) But, as is such with all things artistic and creative, I realize it takes, in great part, a strong inspiration to help crystalize such concepts as innovations in one’s mind, regardless of the genre... and after that, much focused thought, analyzation and evaluation... and God knows how many times one goes through that whole process before finding an idea that’s truly good enough that it doesn’t find it’s way to the trash can.

I’ve got nothing yet... at least not at the moment.

I’m hoping some of you out there have already put some thought into this kind of thing.

Also, if this kind of thread has been done before anywhere, the likes of which I haven’t seen, I wouldn’t mind a link if you could.

Actually, Drak did one thing which I really like that doesn't happen in most rpg's. You can improve your skills all the time without having to wait until you level up.

I'd like to see more use made of different XP rewards based on HOW you solve a situation, with straight forward rush in and kill everything getting the lowest XP.

A different kind of magic system other than the usual mana is what I would try. Something along the lines of King's Bounty rage meter. Where emotions were used instead of mana. Terry Goodkind used this in his books where the war wizard "Richard Rahl" used his emotions instead of the usual convential methods of the time to cast his spells.

This could be incorporated into your personality or charisma skill, which would give it more meaning in the game.

For example you could have the usual fireball, magic missle to be used with anger/rage like Kings Bounty did. But then charm and the like could be incorported into how happy the character was at the time and then different kinds of spells could be used for the opposite, like drain morale or an apathy kind of spell where the target of the spell would be under a stun like effect, could be used when the character was feeling sad. I'm not sure how this could be implemented in a fun game and it certainly couldn't be used in say Diablo, but in a game where there were a lot of dialogue choices that would give you different emotional states this could be used.

There are alot of holes in this idea, but to my knowledge King's bounty is the first to try this and made it fun.

While I liked KOTOR's system of karma affecting your spells, that isn't what I'm talking about here. Karma would play no role in the characters overall success with this. It would be all about the characters perception of the world around him.

I was struck by your sentence:" I even wonder if it's really needed at all to help sustain the genre.... "

I actually don't think it's needed, per se, because the essence of rpg addiction has been defined and works in a formulaic manner, and even when the new games look and play like the old games in every detail( I'm thinking of Eschalon) they work for the core audience.

That said, I think as with anything, the "building a better mousetrap" concept would pay huge dividends for any developer who does it well. The innovation I see already happening is to pick and choose genre high points and combine them into 'hybrid' games. I think it can work well, like the TB strat/rpg combination in King's Bounty, the rts faction/arpg approach of Depths of Peril, or even the way Bioshock tapped into the rpg story aspect that isn't usually seen in shooters.

The real innovation, though, would be something not just done before elsewhere, but something not done before at all. Anyone who comes up with that in a functional way will sell games like life preservers to drowning millionaires.

Your question is complicate but I like it, I'll try role play a CRPG designer.

But about innovation my feeling is that the genre is very complicate and offer ton of traps to fall into. So I feel that the real challenge isn't to innovate but to make a good CRPG. Good fights, good story, good dialogs, good dialog dynamics, good world living, good story stuff density, good quests, good hints, good secrets, good decision points, good diversity of solution choices, good class system, good magic system, good puzzling, good explorations, good graphics, good area design, good sounds, good voice acting, good performances, good interface design, good in-game help and few bugs.

Do all of that, just at a good quality level in a same CRPG and your CRPG will probably be top one of all time. All of that to say that I don't think that innovation are the core of a great CRPG but it's more work polishing.

EDIT: And that's probably why Gothic 3 and Oblivion failed so hard, eyes too big for the stomach... not allowing work polishing.

Well, count me in as one who believes quality is key - and not innovation for the sake of innovation.

However, if I were to roleplay an ambitious developer - i'd go for evolution definitely. That's different, because it doesn't revolutionize or necessarily do anything entirely new - but it takes past concepts further.

That would mean whatever features or aspects you prefer as a developer, or think you might have it in you to evolve, would be the focus.

I'm personally very much about keeping a game alive throughout the experience - where I think most games start out strong but fade sooner or later - to the point where you just want to get it over with. Even the best games are suffering from that problem, or some of them are anyway.

To me, the key is to keep the gameplay evolving as you progress - and as such I think it's important to give the player constant incentives to see what's behind the next corner. That can go for story and visual aesthetics, but I'm primarily concerned with the gameplay mechanics. This means an ever expanding character system, combat system, magic system, item system, and so on. It's about keeping the player excited about his character and his progress in the game - and ideally it will be exciting all the way to the climax, and beyond. Beyond as in having a system and structure that motivates replay and experimentation, so they want to jump right back in with another character.

I also think it's a big mistake to have moved away from intellectual challenges in modern CRPGs - and it's a rarity to find good puzzles or quests based on having to think and analyse your information and process it accordingly. I would re-introduce the pleasure of success based on mental accomplishments. Especially in dungeons, where this used to be a grand tradtion, I'd like to see this concept taken to a new level. I have several ideas in mind - and that goes for both sci-fi and fantasy. It's not a mystery why this has been buried, but I think it's unfortunate all the same.

Anyway, since games like Tomb Raider and its ilk can be alluring to the masses - I don't think it's that much of a stretch to have puzzles in your modern CRPGs. People are not afraid to use their brains, obviously, so let's give them that chance - eh?

Corwin said:

Actually, Drak did one thing which I really like that doesn't happen in most rpg's. You can improve your skills all the time without having to wait until you level up.

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This has nothing to do with the game itself, because it belongs to the rule system.

Wait until my game is done, it is full of innovation!

Corwin said:

I'd like to see more use made of different XP rewards based on HOW you solve a situation, with straight forward rush in and kill everything getting the lowest XP.

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An RPG innovation that I always found to be significant in it's level of departure and its creativity had to do with XP rewards. It was Morrowind's method for determining how you gained skill levels... by physically DOING.

Although, while I recognize Beth's different method as a model for - the definition for what true innovation is, I have to say I didn't prefer that method in the end. Thus, it's easy to see how innovation, even when creative and sound, may not end up as the be all, end all of rpg greatness.

As for your idea, Corwin, that sounds interesting.

magerette said:

I actually don't think it's needed, per se, because the essence of rpg addiction has been defined and works in a formulaic manner, and even when the new games look and play like the old games in every detail( I'm thinking of Eschalon) they work for the core audience.

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Indeed! That's why my first inclination was to start off wondering if innovations were even a necessity at all.

In the end, though, as I think even you may have been edging, however grudgingly, toward this evaluation, ("building better mousetrap... huge dividens) Innovation, born of high inspiration, can really add something satisfying to us players... even if the game can still be considered "old school".

"This means an ever expanding character system, combat system, magic system, item system, and so on." by Dartagnan.

There is a lot of good stuff that Dartagnan said in his post, but I think the above sentance boils it down to its simple essense. I find that sentance very exciting in the kind of innovations it implies.

A game where as you proceed, combat, leveling, maybe party mechanics, etc... evolve and change and happen differently as your power and stature increase... a wonderful concept.

skavenhorde said:

A different kind of magic system other than the usual mana is what I would try. Something along the lines of King's Bounty rage meter. Where emotions were used instead of mana. Terry Goodkind used this in his books where the war wizard "Richard Rahl" used his emotions instead of the usual convential methods of the time to cast his spells.

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I can't begin to tell you how much I've cogitated on how to innovate magic. I'm glad somebody out there is thinking about it, cause I sure haven't come up with anything... yet.

Thanks for the input Skav...

GothicGothicness said:

Wait until my game is done, it is full of innovation!

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Ah yes... my will to keep pushing onward has just increased by 4D20 + 5. Can't wait, Gothic...

CarcusRex said:

Indeed! That's why my first inclination was to start off wondering if innovations were even a necessity at all.

In the end, though, as I think even you may have been edging, however grudgingly, toward this evaluation, ("building better mousetrap... huge dividens) Innovation, born of high inspiration, can really add something satisfying to us players... even if the game can still be considered "old school".

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I didn't mean to sound grudging about it --I love innovation and enjoy(and respect) nothing more than a developer taking a risk on a new idea, then making it work. I decidedly agree that inspiration is what we need more of in games, and where developers need to put their faith for the future, regardless of where they actually let it take them, old school done right or something completely out of the box. I was just interested in what I thought was a valid point you made--that the genre itself is so well-defined in what it does best that it can probably survive by simply fulfilling the basic expectations of its core audience.

D'artagnan wrote:

I'm personally very much about keeping a game alive throughout the experience - where I think most games start out strong but fade sooner or later - to the point where you just want to get it over with. Even the best games are suffering from that problem, or some of them are anyway.

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Absolutely. The burnout point in so many games these days seems to set in after the first hour or so. ( I've whined about my problems with this in MotB, to the point where I honestly don't care if I never go back to it, despite the fact that it's got writing and story excellence that should be pulling me.) I don't know how you get around this except through perfecting balance, one of the hardest things It seems, for games to get right.

On Corwin's point, my memory's a bit hazy, but didn't Wiz8 also use a sort of the 'more you use it the better you get' skill system in conjunction with the usual leveling? I may be thinking of another game--it's been awhile.

yes you are right Wiz 8 uses a great system, but it is wiz 8 the magic system is also great, since it uses points in different schools, which makes you think more and use a wider variety of spells.

CarcusRex said:

A game where as you proceed, combat, leveling, maybe party mechanics, etc... evolve and change and happen differently as your power and stature increase... a wonderful concept.

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I don't know if it's a deliberate move or not but it's not at all the point of Dartagnan. Just play some game like some Blizzard games and as the game progress it introduces new elements to play with and new difficulty points. It's not innovations here it's a game organization that is/was totally classic and one part of it is the level progression management.

But modern CRPG or even less modern have a global gameplay based on more elements that just game mechanisms, game features. A new quest, a new development of story, a new area to explore are all new stuff not based on more standard gameplay features and could be enough to refresh the player interest.

That's still a good design to apply but I would temper it somehow for CRPG.

Corwin said:

I'd like to see more use made of different XP rewards based on HOW you solve a situation, with straight forward rush in and kill everything getting the lowest XP.

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I agree and disagree with this approach. I agree too many CRPG give too much XP reward through fighting vs through only solving a quest.

I disagree because it implies to reward more one solution than the other solution to achieve a same goal. That is going against good branching and good decision points.

Decision points are at their best when no decision choice bring more in term of grinding and adventuring than all other decision choices of this same decision point. When you achieve that you give real decision points to the player not fake one.

To solve this problem I remember one NWN1 mod maker had made the decision to reward no XP for fighting, only quest solving was bringing XP. It was working nicely but in practice it was still not fully even because for example a sneak path or a social path could bring less stuff than storm path allowing collecting more bounties.

Dasale said:

I don't know if it's a deliberate move or not but it's not at all the point of Dartagnan. Just play some game like some Blizzard games and as the game progress it introduces new elements to play with and new difficulty points. It's not innovations here it's a game organization that is/was totally classic and one part of it is the level progression management.

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There was certainly no intent to mislead on my part, if that's what you mean by "deliberate move". Further, I beg to differ that my simple summation of his idea had nothing to do at all with his point... at least as I understood him.

He said "the key" for him, "was to keep the gameplay evolving as you progress..." He further when on to say while that could apply to story and visuals, it was GAMEPLAY MECHANICS he was really interested in seeing evovle. I got the distinct impression that he was talking about game mechanics evolving within a particular game, and not just the genre. Therefore, I contend I was not too far off on the points he made.

Innovation can be a bit tricky when it comes to RPG's, in my experience.

For one, even though there is a desire expressed by many RPG fans to see innovation, there is a simultaneous wish from many of these same people to stick to features of the genre that they prefer and NOT innovate. Include something truly new and you'll get cries in some corners that you're changing what doesn't need to be changed. Include nothing new and you'll get cries of "seen that!" from the other corner.

Now, granted, I'm not talking about the same type of innovating as a few other people in this thread are. Probably for good reason. So far the comments I've seen here are regarding iterations on gameplay -- do you or do you not try some rules system that hasn't been tried before? And while that's all fine and well (presumably you're setting out to try and make a good game no matter what you do) if you're roleplaying a game developer at least half of your mind needs to be on which features you're going to be able to sell.

I know where that ends up -- "oh my god! You're talking about games as a business!" -- and yes, I know that's not a popular sentiment, but if we're talking about roleplaying a developer then you do need to think like one, at least a little, as opposed to thinking like a fan. Trying to think about which features your game has that you can actually sell is important. It'd be great if we could simply let good word of mouth do all our work for us -- make a solid game and send it out to be played and spread amongst the player base by sheer force of its awesome. And, yes, you do want to do that and that's where your excellent gameplay and story and such come into play, but beyond that you need something you can show and which will excite the player base (hardcore included).

Because you can't really sell story -- you can try, but everyone claims they have an awesome story; unless you're going to start spoiling it, there's only so much you can say (and even then only so much you can show). You also really can't sell gameplay. Some people might argue on this, but let's face it: with RPG's there are certain mechanics you expect and if anything beyond that was something you're unfamiliar with (as in an innovative feature) you're likely to look upon it with suspicion until it was proven by you actually getting your hands on it.

Art is easy to show, and hence the focus on it for such a long time now. Whether you loathe the idea or not, media for a game looks good when you can show off a pretty picture. But maybe we're getting to a point where any further iterations in art are going to be pretty small increments at this point. So then what?

I've no easy answers -- thankfully it's not my job to make most of these decisions. I'm just pointing out the perspective that might be needed if you're actually going to think like a developer. If what you're talking about instead is what innovations would make a game more interesting from a fan perspective, that's quite something else.