Health Care Politics Thread

Interesting article about some of what's going on here re: small business and health care reform:
http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/10/smallbusiness/nfib_health_reform.fsb/?postversion=2009081011
This was an interesting article, although a depressing one. If the debate continues in this direction, I think healthcare reform will go down in flames, and that sucks.

Bill O'Reilly has it right this time, I think, when he says Democrats are blowing it. And he's right that this bill, whatever it turns out to be, needs to be written in three pages or less and needs to be understandable to every American.

Our legislators in Congress have a limited understanding of business and what it needs to flourish, and that's holding back progress in the debate over this issue. The truth is very few of them are qualified or experienced enough to appreciate the alternatives they're deciding, and without the ability to discuss them intelligently, they're relying on political rhetoric to make their party's cases instead.

If Democrats try to force this issue over the objection of Republicans, I don't think they'll succeed, despite the math they're seeing. Public opinion won't tolerate any solution that won't pass their sniff test, and this stuff is just too easy to trash. The political landscape will change quickly if they try to stuff a solution down our throats.

It's their turn up to bat, and Democrats need to engage in candid open discussion in order to get this done. That means they need to drop the rhetoric and stop taking shots at Republican detractors, even if they deserve it.
 
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I'm sure lots of them aren't. I doubt anyone's paying you for your views, for that matter.

I just find those views... incomprehensible. As in, "No thanks, I like being sick and broke" incomprehensible. They just make no sense at all, on any level.

I'm chalking it up to cultural differences. That's one hell of a weird country you have there, friend...
 
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Here's a few insights into how some Americans envision our government and the way it works.

A woman I met recently told me how her father retired comfortably after having worked for the Federal Government for many years. He loved it, she claimed, because he could work at his own pace and never have to worry about being pressured to get results. He had hated his previous jobs in the private sector, because he was always criticized for working too slowly. But no one ever bothered him after he began working for the government, because speed and results were never a concern.

A friend of ours took a job working for the state of California after an arduous career in international sales and marketing. At the time he was in the middle of a messy divorce involving a crazy ex-wife and two confused kid (poor kids). And if that weren't enough, he had also recently come to terms with his alcoholism and was trying to stay sober.

He loves working for the state and describes his job as a sort of much-needed vacation. "It's just so laid back and easy," he says. "Aaaaaaaaaah."

Once I had my drivers license suspended due to a mistake involving California's Department of Motor Vehicles. It seemed straightforward, but I already had an attorney on retainer and decided to ask him for his advice. He urged me to go out and hire another attorney, a specialist in dealing with the DMV. He said if I tried to straighten it out on my own it would take 2-3 months to get my license back, because that's the normal pace of the DMV (so that's what I did).

It's stories and experiences like those that make some Americans reluctant about government-controlled healthcare. Myself, I don't blame any of them for balking. I share the same concerns.
 
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http://www.freep.com/article/20090811/OPINION01/908110318/0/COL27

I call this the response to the article I posted earlier, since it's from the same source. Obviously, I don't agree with many of the points the author attempts to make, but I think this part sums up the differences of opinion pretty well:

Indeed, the major stumbling block appears to be the fear among those who have insurance that their quality of coverage may go down or that their expenses may go up if the uninsured get coverage. It's telling that a recent Rasmussen poll found 68% of Americans have health insurance they believe to be good or excellent; furthermore, 63% of Americans say they agree with the goal of insuring everyone, even though only 28% are willing to pay for it through higher taxes.
About the only aspect clearly missing from there is the fact that Uncle Sam simply can't afford to take care of everyone without a major reorientation of our fiscal structures (taxes must go up significantly for everyone, like Europe already is; we'd have to rely on someone else for military power, like Europe already does; we'd need an entire new federal bureaucracy, fully staffed, to administer the program; etc).
 
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Once again: other countries can provide universal coverage for what you already pay in Medicare and Medicaid.

You're constantly saying "no, it can't be done, it's impossible, it's too expensive, we couldn't afford our rockets, we'd have to pay higher taxes, whine, whine whine." You, meaning you personally, dte, but also you -- health care naysayers -- collectively. Can you imagine how different the discourse would be if, instead, you asked "HOW could we do this? WHAT would it cost? WHICH trade-offs could we make? WHAT is the maximum level of coverage we could afford?" Instead, you're just expecting someone to come up with a fully-fledged plan, so you can go "Death panels! Bankruptcy! Socialism!" at it.

It really, honestly is none of my beeswax, but America hasn't been a country I would want to live in for at least 20 years, and despite November 4, it's becoming less of one every day. It screws entrepreneurs. It has crippling, and mounting, health care costs. It has perverse tort laws. It has law enforcement that beats up little old ladies. It has cities turning into deserts. It has a rotting highway system. It has brownouts. It spews CO2 into the atmosphere at an accelerating rate. It has crappy sanitation. It has no fresh veggies in the supermarkets unless you happen to live near a Whole Food Store. It has a federal government that buys fighters designed to fight enemies that don't exist, or bridges that go nowhere. It has political discourse on the level of the start of 2001: A Space Odyssey, with the tribes of apes banging sticks and throwing rocks at each other. It has a ghetto problem that's getting worse. It has a crappy and expensive primary education system that's getting worse. The last vestiges of quality journalism are gone. It has a federal deficit that's getting worse. It's practically run by big, corrupt, politically connected mega-corporations.

In a word, AMERICA IS GOING DOWN THE CRAPPER. I'm theoretically speaking fine with that, since I don't have to actually live there, as long as you manage to keep the rot inside your own borders, although I would sure LIKE to have something to look up to. I just do not understand how you manage to blow every possible chance at fixing it.

And yes, this does apply to Hopey-in-Chief as well, with whom I am sorely disillusioned by now. It's like you're TRYING to fuck up your own country, fercryinoutloud!

There, I feel better now. Normal programming will be resumed.
 
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Good points, PJ, although there's a little hyperbole there. I can get fresh veggies in a multitude of supermarkets. ;)
If only we could grow 'em the way they do in Finland! ;) Yeah, we have a lot on our plate (besides plenty of fresh produce!).
 
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Once again: other countries can provide universal coverage for what you already pay in Medicare and Medicaid.

You're constantly saying "no, it can't be done, it's impossible, it's too expensive, we couldn't afford our rockets, we'd have to pay higher taxes, whine, whine whine." You, meaning you personally, dte, but also you -- health care naysayers -- collectively. Can you imagine how different the discourse would be if, instead, you asked "HOW could we do this? WHAT would it cost? WHICH trade-offs could we make? WHAT is the maximum level of coverage we could afford?" Instead, you're just expecting someone to come up with a fully-fledged plan, so you can go "Death panels! Bankruptcy! Socialism!" at it.

It really, honestly is none of my beeswax, but America hasn't been a country I would want to live in for at least 20 years, and despite November 4, it's becoming less of one every day. It screws entrepreneurs. It has crippling, and mounting, health care costs. It has perverse tort laws. It has law enforcement that beats up little old ladies. It has cities turning into deserts. It has a rotting highway system. It has brownouts. It spews CO2 into the atmosphere at an accelerating rate. It has crappy sanitation. It has no fresh veggies in the supermarkets unless you happen to live near a Whole Food Store. It has a federal government that buys fighters designed to fight enemies that don't exist, or bridges that go nowhere. It has political discourse on the level of the start of 2001: A Space Odyssey, with the tribes of apes banging sticks and throwing rocks at each other. It has a ghetto problem that's getting worse. It has a crappy and expensive primary education system that's getting worse. The last vestiges of quality journalism are gone. It has a federal deficit that's getting worse. It's practically run by big, corrupt, politically connected mega-corporations.

In a word, AMERICA IS GOING DOWN THE CRAPPER. I'm theoretically speaking fine with that, since I don't have to actually live there, as long as you manage to keep the rot inside your own borders, although I would sure LIKE to have something to look up to. I just do not understand how you manage to blow every possible chance at fixing it.

And yes, this does apply to Hopey-in-Chief as well, with whom I am sorely disillusioned by now. It's like you're TRYING to fuck up your own country, fercryinoutloud!

There, I feel better now. Normal programming will be resumed.

I think honestly the main problem has to do with the increasing access of the American public go the legislature. Go back thirty or forty years, before 24-hour news, youtube, etc. Congressmen stayed in DC almost all the time, took far more foreign trips, etc. They all went to the same bars/churches/golf courses and their kids all went to the same schools. Kind of hard for Senator Righty McElephant (R-VA) to go out and call Senator Lefty McDonkey (D-NY) a communist/whatever when they'll have to see each other for their 6 o'clock poker game that Friday. They'd get in a room together and create legislation that *worked*.

Now, they all have to appeal to an extremely small part of their party - the part that votes in primaries. So you have people like Linc Chafee, who quite easily won general elections due to his moderate stances, being forced out of the party by primary challenges from Ultra right wing conservative Republicans. Same goes for the Democrats, too.

It's pretty much political suicide for a lot of these people to work together to get anything done, PJ. We know what the fix for social security is. We need to increase the retirement age and draw down benefits to take care of the Baby Boomer generation (after they all die, the benefits can be re-adjusted upwards, tbh. It's only like a 20-30 year problem). But neither party will make a move because the other side will just jump all over them.

So let's look at Health Care. We all know it needs to change. We all know some form of universal coverage would be good. It's just neither side is willing to do much more than appeal to their base. No one wants to make a cost-effective, efficient plan that won't result in buttloads of new taxes for people. Instead, the GOP is crying 'socialism!' and not contributing, while the Democrats are screaming 'Make the rich pay!' and threatening to dump some half-assed plan on the backs of small business owners.

You can pretty much extend this situation out to nearly every problem we face today. Let's look at climate change. We need to fix it. The GOP is afraid of looking weak/'international'/etc and the Democrats want to keep Green Peace and the crazies in their pocket. So neither group will get together and figure out a way to cut emissions, spur private development of these technologies, and in the mean time get more oil/build more nuclear power pants/build more refineries as a stop-gap measure.

It's frustrating, PJ, but you have to remember that America has been 'in decline' since the WW2. Sputnik, the oil crisis in the 80s, etc. We still somehow manage to stay on top. This obviously will not continue on forever, but if we can pull our act together we can still stay top dog.
 
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Rith wrote:
It's frustrating, PJ, but you have to remember that America has been 'in decline' since the WW2. Sputnik, the oil crisis in the 80s, etc. We still somehow manage to stay on top. This obviously will not continue on forever, but if we can pull our act together we can still stay top dog.
Over all I agree, though in some ways I think the top dog thing actually works against us at times--too affluent, too powerful, too far removed from the hardscrabble origins of hard work, religious persecution and colonial government oppression that formed the democracy.

So, many good dark & gritty points in both Rith's and Prime J's posts above, especially on the unbalanced and out of control aspects of our media culture, but being the irritating irrational optimist I am, I think that's just one side of the coin. I do think last November was a hopeful sign, despite the world-changing fairies not having sprinkled enough love dust on the neo-cons, and the gnashing and grinding of teeth of the far right and, I might add, the far left over Obama's disillusioning shortcomings.

Because really the choice of outcomes is pretty stark. Either America will be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century, or we'll have the equivalent of another Civil War. That's the last time this kind of hateful regional rhetoric and cultural polarization was such a major dynamic, and the government dithered and compromised and pussy-footed around until the only resolution was armed physical violence. This time I think it would take the form of complete government collapse, rioting in the streets, and small regional alliances taking the place of the Feds. I don't see how that can be any kind of improvement, but it seems to be what a lot of people are working towards. The demagogues need to be careful how they stir this pot, because once the fire gets too hot, you can't keep it from boiling over.

Are we really that crazy? That many of us? Sometimes I think so, but (returning to my optimism thing(from which I seem to have strayed a bit ) for all the Jerry Springer-like aspects of our politics, for every paranoid mouthbreather believing every word of the people who are paid to talk hate on the cable and the radio, there are a thousand normal, rational people. For every political two year old throwing a temper tantrum, there are many more adults. Adults with jobs, kids, lives and something to lose. They just aren't deemed 'newsworthy.'

I think what we're seeing is the turmoil of change, and it certainly isn't pretty, but speaking as someone who was conscious while having a baby, new doesn't come easy, and it often isn't much fun to watch.
 
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I agree. I think what you see in the media is a hugely magnified very vocal minority. It's sensational. It sells advertisements. And has very little to do with reality.

The problem is that most of the public buys it as absolute truth, rather than spin, or whathaveyou. That is VERY dangerous.
 
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Indeed, the masses being told over and over that everyone can get a free ride is VERY dangerous.
 
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Once again: other countries can provide universal coverage for what you already pay in Medicare and Medicaid.
And once again: we MUST get a grip on the lawyers before a dollar-to-Euro comparison has any meaning whatsoever.
You're constantly saying "no, it can't be done, it's impossible, it's too expensive, we couldn't afford our rockets, we'd have to pay higher taxes, whine, whine whine." You, meaning you personally, dte, but also you -- health care naysayers -- collectively. Can you imagine how different the discourse would be if, instead, you asked "HOW could we do this? WHAT would it cost? WHICH trade-offs could we make? WHAT is the maximum level of coverage we could afford?" Instead, you're just expecting someone to come up with a fully-fledged plan, so you can go "Death panels! Bankruptcy! Socialism!" at it.
I'm all for a good rant, but this is simply not true. First off, you skipped over the very first and most important question. SHOULD we do this? Since you are the one demanding change from the status quo, you incur the obligation to demonstrate your proposal is viable. That doesn't necessarily have to be a plan to the nth degree, but a few vague waves accompanied by "Every great journey begins with a single step" doesn't cut it, particularly when the financial justification runs between sorely lacking and epic fail depending on whose numbers you want to believe. You seem to think I'm somehow obligated to join your joyous revolution and do your thinking for you, but that's not the way the world works.
It really, honestly is none of my beeswax, but America hasn't been a country I would want to live in for at least 20 years, and despite November 4, it's becoming less of one every day. #1 It screws entrepreneurs. #2 It has crippling, and mounting, health care costs. #3 It has perverse tort laws. #4 It has law enforcement that beats up little old ladies. #5 It has cities turning into deserts. #6 It has a rotting highway system. #7 It has brownouts. #8 It spews CO2 into the atmosphere at an accelerating rate. #9 It has crappy sanitation. #10 It has no fresh veggies in the supermarkets unless you happen to live near a Whole Food Store. #11 It has a federal government that buys fighters designed to fight enemies that don't exist, or bridges that go nowhere. #12 It has political discourse on the level of the start of 2001: A Space Odyssey, with the tribes of apes banging sticks and throwing rocks at each other. #13 It has a ghetto problem that's getting worse. #14 It has a crappy and expensive primary education system that's getting worse. #15 The last vestiges of quality journalism are gone. #16 It has a federal deficit that's getting worse. #17 It's practically run by big, corrupt, politically connected mega-corporations.
That felt good, didn't it? ;) I've taken the liberty of inserting numbers for each point since breaking it into half a million quotes would get unwieldy. Let's take some broad brushstrokes on this, shall we? I'll assume you'll give me a little latitude for sweeping generalizations, but I'll do my best to stay away from baseless stereotypes.
#1: That's kinda broad, so we'll share the blame here. I'd put that on the left, but there's just enough mud in the pool that I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
#2: Another one that's broad, but I'm putting the blame on your side for now because of the shameless intrusion of legal leeches that your side fosters and protects. Take care of that problem, and the balance might shift to profit motives which is mine. For now, this is yours.
#3: The left loves its legal lottery and has blocked every effort to put a stop to the stupidity. That's yours.
#4: That's BS, but I'm out of that argument. I'll take this one since we're traditionally the pro-police side.
#5: Not quite sure where you're going with that one, so I'm going to skip it.
#6: Highway bills have long been the pork of choice for the right. We love to spend money on roads and bridges when you let us. Infrastructure failure is yours.
#7: Since the enviro-nuts and EPA have single-handedly made it impossible to build new power plants (particularly clean nuclear plants), this one's yours.
#8: Air pollution is mine.
#9: Not sure what you're basing that one on, nor the scope you're complaining about. Skip.
#10: Well, you do strongly espouse trade efficiencies. Since the Farmer's Market is horribly inefficient compared to an international corporate mega-farm, I could say this one's yours. It's a rather "deep" accusation with tons of inputs, so I'm going to call it a push we can share.
#11: Your examples of government waste are mine, but I can dig up enough Mapplethorpes and fish studies to match you. Push.
#12: You started it. ;) Push.
#13: There's a lot under the hood on that one. I'll take the blame for marginalization but you've got to take the blame for the no-personal-responsibility reinforcing culture. Push.
#14: The lefty teachers union makes it impossible to keep good teachers and dump the duds. They also resist any movement toward accountability. The lack of respect for authority undermines the discipline, making matters even worse. This one's yours.
#15: I suppose it depends on how you define "quality", but I know you favor a nice liberal media so I'll take this one.
#16: Dubya's stupidity not withstanding, the left is the party of spending. Entitlement programs account for the lion's share of federal spending. This one's yours.
#17: The left lobbyists are spending just as much as the corporations to buy influence. I'm feeling generous, so I'll give you this one.

Let's tally up, shall we? I took 4 bullets. We shared 4 bullets. 2 bullets went astray, probably knocking down old ladies in the crowd. 6 bullets are right in your gut. I wish you'd get on the stick and start fixing some of your problems, cuz you're dragging me down.
In a word, AMERICA IS GOING DOWN THE CRAPPER.
Took you long enough. I've been saying this for how long now?!?
 
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What worries me is that they all might decide to give up and simply move to Australia!! :)
 
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My brother works in the Pharmaceutical industry ... and what he basically said is that they have always been able to just raise prices when volumes fall and pass it on that way ... but the threat of truly managed care means they aren't doing that in order to not look bad ...

THAT is our health care system ... hope you guys like it!
 
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Dte , you are the absolute master of the Magic Mirror spell--and that's an accomplishment for someone who avoids playing spellcasters. If Prime Junta can cast a few Disrupting Rays or something he may break through on that list but I certainly am too low level. I'd just be Fireballin' ya and getting incinerated. :)
 
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Indeed, the masses being told over and over that everyone can get a free ride is VERY dangerous.

And the masses being told that Obama is just like Hitler, and we all know what Hitler deserved, is rather dangerous, too. Unless you think Biden and Pelosi would do a better job.
 
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