RPGWatch - Legends of Eisenwald Preview

I remember when the developers started talking about the game they said they wanted to make a game with the freedom of exploration of King's Bounty, and a combat system akin to Disciples. Has the quasi-final product turned out this way? I have it on early access due to having backed the Kickstarter but I'm leery of playing anything but the final version.

Also I wonder about the variety of enemy assets, from what I remember although it is understandable for a game with such a small budget, it was very limited.
 
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Hey! Yeah, I was! (actually, a was literally taking care of my archives two weeks ago and saw a .txt about a "event" I organized and I was like, oh yeah.. I used to waste time that way as well!) I used to be quite active on the forums here, but life happens and everything, so now I just read the news every now and then.

I'm very happy that this community is still going strong after so many years, it's always been my favorite!

I had tons of fun as a Shadow, so wasn't a waste in my point of view :)

Good to read you're still doing well.
 
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Good work, Aubrielle! I enjoyed reading that :)

I would like to know more about the mechanics, as the game definitely sounds interesting.
 
Good work, Aubrielle! I enjoyed reading that :)

I would like to know more about the mechanics, as the game definitely sounds interesting.
You could always check out the news section on our site as Aubrielle said above the game has been covered, and discussed various times already.

I'll even give you the link to start.;)

Link - http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/news?ref=0&id=514

Have fun and make sure you have at least an hour to spare.
 
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Besides attacking, the only other option (non-support) characters have is to "defend"

Does it mean they have no active skill to use? Only one type of attack? What is the whole idea of the combat? I never understood games with tactical combat who had small, limiting battlefields (smaller than arenas in HOMMs or KBs). Tactical combat is about moving and positioning. It sounds almost like contradiction - make tactical game with small battlefield. I would expect that if you use this approach you base combat on different mechanics. For example - more hp, MORE TYPES of attack/ defense, skills, focus on 1 vs 1 combat when both armies fight in a line and cant move. So what is the point of combat in Eisenwald? I dont say its bad but pretty simple mechanics probably wont be interesting enough when player will be playing long campaings (especially if variety of enemies is limited too).
 
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Thanks, Fluent! :) And Couch, thank you for pointing out that link. ^.^

Does it mean they have no active skill to use? Only one type of attack? What is the whole idea of the combat? I never understood games with tactical combat who had small, limiting battlefields (smaller than arenas in HOMMs or KBs). Tactical combat is about moving and positioning. It sounds almost like contradiction - make tactical game with small battlefield. I would expect that if you use this approach you base combat on different mechanics. For example - more hp, MORE TYPES of attack/ defense, skills, focus on 1 vs 1 combat when both armies fight in a line and cant move. So what is the point of combat in Eisenwald? I dont say its bad but pretty simple mechanics probably wont be interesting enough when player will be playing long campaings (especially if variety of enemies is limited too).

I think the developers were going for a really low fantasy, almost "realistic" combat. How it ends up working is that you have archers and melee units slogging away at each other, one side trying to outlast the other with pure brute force. Support units like healers and casters have "spiritual points", (i.e. mana) they use for their abilities. This means no spam-healing, and only a few units get buffed before the caster mana runs out. This does leave your healers and casters to use abilities like "meditation" (I think that's what it's called) to idle for a round and regain mana. I concede that the game could have had more tactical depth if non-combatant support units could at least move or engage better in melee combat.

I doubt we can expect much of a revamp of the combat system this close to launch, and my prediction is that if Eisenwald gets hit anywhere by reviewers, it'll be for its battles. Battles end up still being tense, but…unfortunately not very complex or nuanced. Let's hope we can prevail on Aterdux to totally overhaul the combat system after launch. :)

I remember when the developers started talking about the game they said they wanted to make a game with the freedom of exploration of King's Bounty, and a combat system akin to Disciples. Has the quasi-final product turned out this way? I have it on early access due to having backed the Kickstarter but I'm leery of playing anything but the final version.

The current beta build is great (once you do the firewall fix Alexander mentioned…which I didn't know about initially and made the game unplayable until I did), and I doubt it'll change a whole lot before launch (obviously, except for optimization and streamlining of background functions), so you may be pretty safe playing now. The combat is really Disciples-like, admittedly, with the one difference being that in Disciples (2, at least), your casters never ran out of mana - they could go forever in their role, where in Eisenwald, if they run out of mana, they're nerfed, making them sitting targets until they regain it. That could add challenge, or not, depending on your view. :) I'd compare the combat more with HoMM in terms of look and feel, considering that it's hex-based and that most everyone can move around.

But the exploration is pretty extensive…and on the bigger maps, I found it a bit overwhelming, but that just means there's more to do. ^.^ But I haven't played as much King's Bounty as I'd have liked, so I can't compare it with KB with any authority…
 
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Does it mean they have no active skill to use? Only one type of attack? What is the whole idea of the combat? I never understood games with tactical combat who had small, limiting battlefields (smaller than arenas in HOMMs or KBs). Tactical combat is about moving and positioning. It sounds almost like contradiction - make tactical game with small battlefield. I would expect that if you use this approach you base combat on different mechanics. For example - more hp, MORE TYPES of attack/ defense, skills, focus on 1 vs 1 combat when both armies fight in a line and cant move. So what is the point of combat in Eisenwald? I dont say its bad but pretty simple mechanics probably wont be interesting enough when player will be playing long campaings (especially if variety of enemies is limited too).

Actually, the combat is about moving and positioning. Not about choosing various options like low strike etc

The point of combat is to do with the available assets.
Recruiting, training and upkeeping an army plays a large part in the game. Different strategies (to deal with that part) are supported by various builds in characters.
Money is to be earned and therefore, the player must make decisions on an overall strategy (like a smaller force or larger force, higher or lower level troops etc)

That first part is the base for the rest.

For combat: the game uses the fact that designing difficulty in a turn based structure is easier than in a real time structure (in a turn based, the maximum amount of damage can be easily put under control and is less dependent on the player)

Battles come in various levels of difficulty, that are easy to size up.

Money is a nerve in this game, healing requires money for example. So as you train your troops to support your overall strategy, engaging and dealing properly with the enemy is met by lower costs, and faster advancement through the game.

The turn based sequence starts with the organization of the troops, that might fill up three ranks.
Troops in the first rank can be moved so that they block the path to the second etc so the deployment phase is connected to the basic strategy.

Once in combat, it is mostly about moving and positioning, based on the synergy that is wanted between each rank.
Ganging up on a enemy is possible, it is hex based so it recognizes flank and rear.
Retreating from combat is another option.

Troops developp skills that determines the overall strategy.

Gear plays also an important part as they modify stats to reinforce a strategy.

Last, initiative also plays a large part: each unit plays in order of initiative, with basic relationships like faster means less resilient to damage. You want to strategize a force based on tanks that are regenerated by healers, you are given ways to make sure that tanks can tank and healers are fast enough to heal before the enemy strikes again.

Ideas between the combat: moving, positioning, ranks, initiative, units in use.

Another point: combat damage are predetermined. They do not rely on a wrong use of probabilities/statistics etc that is common (giving erroneous choice like option 1 62%, option 2 85% that does not work)
Each blow makes this amount of damage, based on attack, defense, buffs etc
 
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Sadly my experience in this game is not favourable. The worst part is the combat - it is well below equivalent games like KB, HoMM, and even Expeditions: Conquistador had more tactical possibilities. Fights are really decided before they begin.

I would recommend reading the reviews on Steam because they match up pretty well with what I've experienced. Pay the $5 more and pick up KB: Dark Side or AoW3.
 
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Does it mean they have no active skill to use? Only one type of attack? What is the whole idea of the combat? I never understood games with tactical combat who had small, limiting battlefields (smaller than arenas in HOMMs or KBs). Tactical combat is about moving and positioning. It sounds almost like contradiction - make tactical game with small battlefield. I would expect that if you use this approach you base combat on different mechanics. For example - more hp, MORE TYPES of attack/ defense, skills, focus on 1 vs 1 combat when both armies fight in a line and cant move. So what is the point of combat in Eisenwald? I dont say its bad but pretty simple mechanics probably wont be interesting enough when player will be playing long campaings (especially if variety of enemies is limited too).

To start out Knights and other melee units and archers have no active skills. I clicked on the upgrade (level up) button for my Knight and did see some options for special attacks (e.g., "powerful strike") as well passive abilities. But yes, to start out a fighter's only options are basic "attack" and "defend".

I guess the Aterdux's intention is for fights to be fast-paced. And they are, but the trade-off is they are just too simplistic. Positioning matters (i.e., you can only attack the enemies closest to your unit) but it's in a way the player has little control over. (You can't choose starting position) That's the big problem I have with Legend of Eisenwald's combat… Your options are so limited. You can't move your characters into any sort of formation. By default, archers and support units are always behind your knights / soldiers so you don't have to worry about them being slaughtered by enemy infantry as long as your melee units are standing (the only thing they are vulnerable to is enemy archers).

So as it stands now, the only significant way to influence the outcome of battles is by preparing for fights: optimizing your equipment and making sure you hire as many units as possible / keep them healed. And eventually, by choosing how to upgrade your units… I haven't played far enough to see what the special abilities are like, but I doubt it is enough to offset the lack of tactical options. In its current state I can't recommend the game. I hope the developers will listen to feedback and come up with something that makes the combat more tactical.
 
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Thank you for all your comments and discussion!

We don't want to mislead anyone, so I will tell you this: we don't have plans to change combat system. It works exactly the way we wanted from the start. The tactical depth is not apparent, especially on smaller maps, so I'd recommend to play Cursed Castle scenario to see how different units, different weapons and positioning can really change outcomes of nearly hopeless battles. Unfortunately, it still takes some hours of play to grasp the core of the combat. If you pay attention to Steam reviews, mostly negative come from people who played 5-8 hours or less.

Someone wrote a very good review that really in my opinion describes the game well:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Terracorex/recommended/246760/
 
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Maybe you guys should record a YouTube video showing deep combat.
 
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Sadly my experience in this game is not favourable. The worst part is the combat - it is well below equivalent games like KB, HoMM, and even Expeditions: Conquistador had more tactical possibilities. Fights are really decided before they begin.

I would recommend reading the reviews on Steam because they match up pretty well with what I've experienced. Pay the $5 more and pick up KB: Dark Side or AoW3.

If all you're concerned about is combat, maybe…though each game does combat a bit differently. Each game delivers a different experience overall, and I'd personally recommend buying whatever game suits your style and mood the best. Combat isn't the entire game (unless it's Diablo)…it's only one facet. Eisenwald excels in mood, narrative, storyline, and a classic medieval feel. If you think HoMM, KB, or AoW do turn based combat better, then definitely go with those. But Eisenwald stands on its own merits as an overall achievement - I think - especially if you're interested in narrative and a medieval ambiance. If you're looking at Kingdom Come: Deliverance, you'll enjoy Eisenwald as well.
 
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Maybe you guys should record a YouTube video showing deep combat.

We are planning to do it as soon as animations will be resynced (they are slightly off now) and some SFX will be there. I think a good example would be somewhat hopeless fight that you first lose, then with some changes win, and then with some more changes win with very little loss. But maybe we will go just with two battles if it gets too long.
 
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But Eisenwald stands on its own merits as an overall achievement - I think - especially if you're interested in narrative and a medieval ambiance.

I am glad to hear that.There are lot of games in this genre so we don't need another clone so I appreciate that they are trying something different even if end result doesn't meet my expectations I am not sorry I backed it.
 
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Thank you for all your comments and discussion!

We don't want to mislead anyone, so I will tell you this: we don't have plans to change combat system. It works exactly the way we wanted from the start. The tactical depth is not apparent, especially on smaller maps, so I'd recommend to play Cursed Castle scenario to see how different units, different weapons and positioning can really change outcomes of nearly hopeless battles. Unfortunately, it still takes some hours of play to grasp the core of the combat. If you pay attention to Steam reviews, mostly negative come from people who played 5-8 hours or less.

Someone wrote a very good review that really in my opinion describes the game well:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Terracorex/recommended/246760/

The game definitely has a lot of great qualities... The music, visuals and atmosphere are all nice... I like what I have seen of the economy.

I can appreciate that you are sticking to your vision for the combat and wouldn't expect you to make any drastic changes to the combat system.. However, if it can take players up to 8 hours to really experience the game's tactical depth... then IMO that's a problem... So perhaps you can think of some small ways to tweak the combat w/o changing it into another game (e.g., an additional option in combat). I'd rather play a great game than a game that "gets great after 5-8 hours".
 
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Spending time on products tells nothing on the validity of the opinion.

Players spend 8 hours and reach an undesired conclusion? They did not spend enough time to evaluate.

Players spend 20 hours and reach an undesired conclusion? How did they spend so much time on a product if they did not enjoy it?
 
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The game definitely has a lot of great qualities… The music, visuals and atmosphere are all nice… I like what I have seen of the economy.

I can appreciate that you are sticking to your vision for the combat and wouldn't expect you to make any drastic changes to the combat system.. However, if it can take players up to 8 hours to really experience the game's tactical depth… then IMO that's a problem… So perhaps you can think of some small ways to tweak the combat w/o changing it into another game (e.g., an additional option in combat). I'd rather play a great game than a game that "gets great after 5-8 hours".

I didn't say the game gets great after 5-8 hours. I am saying that a learning curve in RPGs is generally higher. And our game is not an exception. And someone who played our game for very short time (there are reviews with play time of less than an hour) most likely didn't have enough time to learn how it all works. We changed our tutorial to make things easier, and provided that tutorial in the main menu as well.

There are some well reasoned complains about combat, I have to admit but mostly negative stuff is from players who expect hand holding and being able to defeat everyone from the start. Also, quite a few complains are about bugs…

There are many more positive reviews, you can check them out yourselves.
 
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Thanks for coming here, Aterdux guys. Is it possible to edit combat mechanics or all the upgrades/skills of characters by modding? It could satisfy people who dont like your combat so much.
 
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I didn't say the game gets great after 5-8 hours. I am saying that a learning curve in RPGs is generally higher. And our game is not an exception. And someone who played our game for very short time (there are reviews with play time of less than an hour) most likely didn't have enough time to learn how it all works. We changed our tutorial to make things easier, and provided that tutorial in the main menu as well.

There are some well reasoned complains about combat, I have to admit but mostly negative stuff is from players who expect hand holding and being able to defeat everyone from the start. Also, quite a few complains are about bugs…

There are many more positive reviews, you can check them out yourselves.

I'm not basing my opinion on other people's reviews. I backed the game on Kickstarter and I have tried the beta myself. Frankly, I don't care what anyone else thinks of it, because I can form my own impressions about the game. My complaint is not related to lack of hand-holding or unclear rules, but rather that I find the tactical options available in the game are simply too limited / restrictive. Admittedly, I have played it only a few hours, so perhaps the options become less limited as you upgrade characters and get additional unit types…

Just to be clear, my complaint is not related to things being too difficult for me, nor am I failing to grasp the mechanics. The problem I have is that for the most part the outcome of battles seems to be determined before the fight starts… I'll keep playing it to see if this improves, but it is definitely a shortcoming in the beginning of the game.
 
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