Dragon Age 2 - News Roundup #4

azarhal said:

Do you really believe that DRM stop piracy?

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No. But an apathetic and defeatist attitude doesn't either. The fact that you don't have to look too hard to find sites where piracy is widely advocated for means that it has at least tacit approval amongst the general populace. There's a lot of blame to be passed around, and nobody gets to wear a halo.

Console piracy does not get as much attention or ire because consoles sales are still very high. Despite DA2 leaking this early on the Xbox that version will still outsell the PC version by probably 4-to-1.

Sales are what matters. If PC games were selling as many copies as Xbox games do generally then piracy would be a lot less of a deal.

EA is a huge company but customer service is not their better qualities , i have been a consumer of the games they publish, that makes it personal ! Honestly the business aspect of gaming has been very shady as of late with big corporate Publishers . Im proud to say i have never stolen a game in my life , would never slap someone if they did, its not right, but im not the jury. Most DRMs i dont have a problem with.If i dont like certain requirements to play a game , like they say just dont buy it. To whom it may concern, I wasnt trying to be insightful. Just expressing that i was glad to see EA have to jump a few hurdles before cashing inn on their cow.

rich ruffo said:

EA is a huge company but customer service is not their better qualities , i have been a consumer of the games they publish, that makes it personal ! Honestly the business aspect of gaming has been very shady as of late with big corporate Publishers . Im proud to say i have never stolen a game in my life , would never slap someone if they did, its not right, but im not the jury. Most DRMs i dont have a problem with.If i dont like certain requirements to play a game , like they say just dont buy it. To whom it may concern, I wasnt trying to be insightful. Just expressing that i was glad to see EA have to jump a few hurdles before cashing inn on their cow.

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I'm sure they will be fine with their "cow" heh.

DoctorNarrative said:

Console piracy does not get as much attention or ire because consoles sales are still very high. Despite DA2 leaking this early on the Xbox that version will still outsell the PC version by probably 4-to-1.

Sales are what matters. If PC games were selling as many copies as Xbox games do generally then piracy would be a lot less of a deal.

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That is very true. The console sell more copies that's all. So piracy is ignored more than it its on the pc. Though drm is coming to consoles as I posted earlier. We will see who laughs and calls us elitists in 5-10 years.

Then we can welcome our console brothers to our misery with drm.

DRM is already on consoles, namely DCUO can only be played on one machine and can't transfer over.

rune_74 said:

DRM is already on consoles, namely DCUO can only be played on one machine and can't transfer over.

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I don't follow games like this, but I thought I read somewhere that it's almost impossible to sell used. Do you know if this is true? If so, it would appear that a new DRM is indeed on its way to consoles.

The sneaky part about potential console DRM is that piracy might be the perfect justification to destroy the used games market on consoles - something that publishers have wanted to accomplish for quite some time.

Nerevarine said:

I don't follow games like this, but I thought I read somewhere that it's almost impossible to sell used. Do you know if this is true? If so, it would appear that a new DRM is indeed on its way to consoles.

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DCU Online is an MMO though, that's a special case. Final Fantasy XI on the PS2 did the same thing like 8 years ago.

There is DRM on consoles though. Every downloadable game and DLC is protected by DRM. Also pretty much every console disc game gets a patch now-a-days and you need a PSN or XBLA account to get those patches. When the servers and services for the current consoles go down people will lose a LOT of content and gameplay. I imagine Steam-like registration of disc games for consoles is not too far away as well, either next console generation or soon after.

The real amusing thing for me is that since consoles are closed platforms DRM is a much bigger deal. On the PC the worst case scenario for DRM like Steam is that some day I might need to download a crack to play my game. This allows me to accept PC DRM, it's literally irrelevant. On a closed system though? No thanks... if I was a console gamer I would never accept closed-system DRM.

Reading the Gaider interview had me thinking, how did developers view RPGs/games in the not so distant past… So far I've only googled Gaider and permutations of RPG + Console + story + "Predefined Protagonist" + "definition of RPG".

http://forums.bioware.com/viewpost.html?topic=449687&post=3786455&forum=84&highlight=

David Gaider said:

You know, I've felt similarly myself. I really liked Final Fantasy VII, and it was one of the first console RPG's that I found I enjoyed.

Since then, however, it seems that Japanese console RPG's have become far more about the cutscenes than about the gameplay. I recently played a console game called "Star Ocean" which was recommended to me, and I was amazed to discover that the entire game was essentially a string of long cutscenes broken up by fights. I wasn't even given any choices… the character I was supposedly playing would make major story decisions on his own and otherwise progress through this plot, and the only time I took control was to guide the party through the world, fighting monsters and trying to find the next cutscene.
I mentioned this issue to the friend who recommended the game to me, and he seemed puzzled by my response. The story was excellent, he said, didn't I appreciate it? As far as he was concerned, Japanese RPG's had stories that were way beyond anything western-style RPG's came up with. I said sure, maybe (if one likes the sort of angsty teen drama that is prevalent in Japanese RPG's, I guess, but that's just taste) but that's what you get when you have a completely predefined protaganist. And it didn't even seem to be much of a game to me… I was reading a book, more or less, and my lack of involvement with the decisions made me entirely disinterested. It was an adventure game with stats and levels, and I wanted an RPG. One that had decisions.

He doesn't need that. He just wants a good story, and if he gets to make a major decision or two it's a bonus. I, meanwhile, need a game where I determine my own fate. I know I'm not playing ME, and in a computer game freedom is a bit of an illusion anyhow, but I want that illusion. When it's done well, it keeps me interested because I'm the one driving the action. Add that to a mature storyline that recognizes that not everyone who plays these games is fifteen years old and still giggles at the sight of a boobie and I'm happy as a clam.

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http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=123

1. Let's skip "tell us your name" questions and start with design stuff. What's your definition of RPG? What features or design elements are important to you in an RPG and why? What RPGs, if any, have influenced you or left a strong impression?

Trying to define an RPG is bound to get someone into trouble get any group of RPG fans together and they're not likely to agree on the elements of an RPG that they find most important. So, with the understanding that it's hardly definitive, I'd have to say that I look for two main things:

1. The ability to play a character of my own design, and
2. Having some ability to decide my destiny and how I'd like to go about accomplishing things.

RPG's that don't allow me to create my own character just don't feel very personal to me. I've played many games, as well, that feel too controlling for me they don't give you any options other than, say, occasionally letting you wander around and fight things as well as other games that feel far too open they concentrate more on world simulation world than on maintaining a coherent story. There have been RPG's at either end of that spectrum that I've enjoyed, but I'd say that my ideal is somewhere in the middle of the two. I'd like to receive some direction and feel that there's a plot that's important and providing me an immediate imperative to follow, but I'd also like some freedom to explore and occasionally choose how I'm going to solve a problem on my own, without being left to wander aimlessly or feel overwhelmed.

As far as specific RPG's that have influenced me? Ultima IV was the first game I remember that went beyond having combat being the answer to everything; needing to perform tasks that concentrated on charity and compassion and such in order to become the Avatar was a great feeling. I adored “Darklands� for its setting and system (Dark Fantasy is probably my favorite genre). If anything, I just wish it had offered a little more direction and was less merciless. “Blade of Destiny� offered a lot of things I liked, too its travel system, in particular. There are other games I enjoyed a lot, but those are probably the earliest RPG’s that I was influenced by.

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Now I'm curious to see how the opinions of other developers, writers or artists has changed over the past few years.

Interesting snippet, MasterKromm. It's interesting to see his complaints about JRPGs like Star Ocean, considering that Bioware continues to move farther in the exact same direction as some JRPGs.

Let's take a look at Gaider's list of things that he views as negative, and compare it to Bioware's recent games, mostly ME2 and DA2: Pre-defined character, Limited choices (yes, Bioware's games have "choices," but they are very superficial the majority of the time), guiding the player down a linear path towards the next cut-scene...and to top it off, a stylized/anime art-style! Seems Bioware now makes the best JRPGs on the planet!

I had to laugh to myself when I read this comment: "Add that to a mature storyline that recognizes that not everyone who plays these games is fifteen years old and still giggles at the sight of a boobie and I'm happy as a clam." Really? Then what does he have to say about how women are portrayed in DA2 (especially Isabella)?

how do you pirate?

SAGO said:

how do you pirate?

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Move to Somalia

kalniel said:

No, it just mitigates the worst of the effects by sometimes delaying it.

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Yes the publishers hope to buy a week at most but most of us know games are mostly cracked the same day. Ubisofts terrible drm was effective because it withheld data that had to be downloaded while playing. Even that was hacked eventually but it bought them time and sales.

I, for one, think piracy's grown as quickly as it has because of the industry's overall direction towards 10 hour long FPS games. For better or worse, such games have held a very large market share and are quite deplorable in terms of length (generally).

Even outside the realm of FPS, so many games today are shipped prior to being ready that people get angry with all the bugs with which they must contend.

Am I condoning piracy? Heck no, but you can frame a picture as to why it's risen to the levels it has in the past decade and become closer to a norm. Are there schmucks out there who think they deserve everything in life free regardless of effort others put into it? Sure. But I'd like to think they're a minority and that the greater portion of pirates are people who have grown tired of feeling ripped off after spending $50-60 on a game completed in a single evening or, worse yet, a game so unstable that they can't get out of the tutorial.

That's just more rationalising. If it's that unstable, why would you waste your time? If it's worth your time but not at the current asking price, why not wait a couple of months and pick it up for $10?

Because they don't have to. They can steal it now and rationalise about how the evil corporation made them because the gameplay is crap later on.

Here you go a little info from a escapistmagazine.com article with Mike Laidlaw.

Greg Tito: It seemed like Dragon Age: Origins was much more of an epic fantasy along the lines of Tolkien or George R. R. Martin's Song of Fire and Ice, whereas Dragon Age II you could say is a sword-and-sorcery personal story of one man's rise to power. Was that an intentional departure or did you guys think about that as you were crafting the story for the second one?

Mike Laidlaw: We did, actually, quite a bit. There were two reasons behind that change, because you've exactly nailed it. One is a piece of epic literature, which is Origins, and the other I think is much more personal, much more intimate and almost a family piece, the idea of the extended family and the extended home. The sense that it's not just your house but Kirkwall becoming home. The new adopted family of your party and companions.

We want to do two things, I think. First off we wanted to make sure that we established that, since we were doing some pretty fundamental changes, ones that we were trying to put in context of, "it must feel like Dragon Age, but not entirely be Dragon Age." The story that we're telling here, one where Varric is providing narration, narration that is inherently established as a little bit, perhaps, exaggerated, is that it was a perfect introduction to the art style changes that our art director wanted to do to support the story, and to look at the story from a personal standpoint.

To say that there's a tension between wanting to know the ending, wanting to know, "How do things turn out?" and "What happens to the Chantry?" and so on. Versus wanting to know the details so the ending makes sense. It's like reading a mystery novel, where you could just look at the ending and find out whodunit but it doesn't matter unless you walk the road. That presented for us, I think a different kind of storytelling, a different kind of challenge. Something that we hadn't really done before and that, I think has elements of intrigue to it that we couldn't do if the story were just about, "there is your big enemy, go kill it," which is Origins.

I think it creates a diversity in both the way we're telling the story, the kind of stories we're telling. And it also, I think, sets a note for the franchise, which is, "Dragon Age is not about one character, it's not about just Wardens and the Blight, it's about a world, and about a time, and about the way that world evolves and changes over the different iterations of Dragon Age. Because if I had my druthers, in the future we'll take a look at the changes that happened in II, and explore them and the ramifications of them, which would again be a different kind of game, I think.

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He all but confirmed DragonAge 3 will be different and to tell the truth I cant imagine how after they changed DragonAge 2

Dhruin said:

because the gameplay is crap later on.

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Yes. Saying "it was crap anyway, so I was right in 'trying it out' " could be what we call in German a "Schutzbehauptung", a "protection proposition" or a "shield proposition", so to say.

The thing with such a Schutzbehauptung is, that one doesn't really believe in it, but the person using it uses it as a shield to hide behind it and become protected by it. And make believe this would be an "righteous argument" anyway.

It's like telling a lie to herself/himself.

Couchpotato said:

He all but confirmed DragoAge 3 will be different and to tell the truth I cant imagine how after they changed DragoAge 2

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That's an easy one. They'd just look at different gamnes from different developers - and copy them. Or parts, at least.

I'm often surprised how close Drakensang plays to Dragon Age. On the surface, there are few similarities, but in the "feel" of it, there are.

And I have had several times the distinct feeling as if one had borrowed from the other one.
I suspect rather Bioware borrowing from Drakensang.
Rather that than the other way round.

DRM debates are boring, and don't seem to be getting anywhere anymore - if they ever did. Everybody's just rehashing whatever old arguments support their personal opionion and game aquisition habits

However, I think MasterKromm has really hit the nail on the proverbial head when it comess to "The Great DA2 Feather Ruffling (Q1 2011)".

Considering that Mr. Gaider seemed to have been using high-level divination spells to criticize DA years before it was made (based on available pre-release marketing, Biowarite interviews and the ill-fated demo), I'm very curious about his response explaining the change. What happened?

a) Mr. Gaider used to have stong convictions about what "RPG" means (as stated in that quote and other material from the DA forums of 3-4 years ago, which used to make me happy about the great game it would surely result in), but changed his mind. Possible.

b) Mr. Gaider still believes those elements made other games less-than-ideal RPGs, but will somehow result in the ultimate RPG experience when used in DA2. Disappointing (if true, because he's smarter than that).

c) Mr. Gaider still believes those elements make for a less-than-ideal RPG experience, but is paid/intimidated/pacified enough by EA not to really care about DA2 being such an experience. Depressing.

d) Mr. Gaider never actually believed in what he said, but was just following the marketing plan of the month - which at the time thought RPG freaks (becoming disgruntled with Bioware's increasing fondness for CAAC - Cinematics At All Costs TM) are the audience that needs to be catered to. Cynical.

Now how's that for a dialogue wheel choice for you? Unless this question is answered, Bioware loses all RPG-cred they might have had. They might still prosper and enjoy a golden age of "cinematic experiences", but they will slip from my list of credible RPG sources (and I have no illusion that they care about my opinion, but it's what matters to me).

Do keep in mind that I have no personal hard feelings towards Mr. Gaider or any other individual Bioware employee - the guy's day job is writing (for a game company no less) and that's something that always deserves respect imnho (and a bit of envy .

Also keep in mind that DA forums in those times (years before even DAO was released) were full of interesting RPG discussions, and anti-munchkiny ideas. I still remember reading how healing should be rare, with injuries and cripplings likely outcomes of many combats etc. - only to be slightly confused with the multitude of healing potions and "injury kits" (for Lucifer's sake!) effectively still keeping combat and resulting injuries just a minor obstacle on the path to ever more CAAC (TM).

So, in a way, DAO - while an all right game, with some good (origin stories, lots of background lore, non-romance companion interactions) and bad (combat, camera, CAAC) elements - was already a departure from the "good, non-mainstream RPG at all costs" vibe the game was supposed to be - a long time ago, on a forum now far away...

Rain Brinson said:

Considering that Mr. Gaider seemed to have been using high-level divination spells to criticize DA years before it was made (based on available pre-release marketing, Biowarite interviews and the ill-fated demo), I'm very curious about his response explaining the change. What happened?
[…]
Now how's that for a dialogue wheel choice for you? Unless this question is answered, Bioware loses all RPG-cred they might have had. They might still prosper and enjoy a golden age of "cinematic experiences", but they will slip from my list of credible RPG sources (and I have no illusion that they care about my opinion, but it's what matters to me).

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Geez, some of you guys project too much. It's an interesting observation but you take the conclusions too far.

a) Gaider is just a writer (no offense intended by the "just"). He is isn't the Lead Designer, Project Director or Executive Producer, let alone more senior positions than that.

Of course he gets told what to do. Don't you? I work for a great company but I don't always agree with everything senior management chooses and they've certainly disagreed with me at times in the past.

If you were Gaider, would you leave? And go where? Uproot your family from Edmonton and move to Irvine and try to join Obsidian? Give me a break.

b) Credibility? KotOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2 didn't how you their direction? Have a look at their vision on their website: does it says "we make great hardcore RPGs"? No, it says: "BioWare's vision is to Create, Deliver, and Evolve the Most Emotionally Engaging Games in the World”.

Oh, welcome to the forum. Apologies for the sharp response but I get tired of personal attacks aimed at individual developers doing their jobs and people somehow blindly expecting something out of BioWare when their direction is clear for all to see.

Alrik Fassbauer said:

And I have had several times the distinct feeling as if one had borrowed from the other one.
I suspect rather Bioware borrowing from Drakensang.
Rather that than the other way round.

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How on earth did you come to that conclusion? NWN was out before the first drakensang, which ironically looks almost identical to NWN engine. If anyone copied anyone I think it should be easy to figure out.