Can we get another turned-based CRPG already? @ B'n'B

Dhruin said:

BioWare didn't stay developing BG2-type games, did they? The race for premium production values means chasing mainstream wider audiences means no time for niche audiences. Make your choice.

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And that makes me very sad. I still cant find the reason why they never made more games with the engine. I still love playing games like HOMM 1-5 but the title was about turn based crpgs. As I said I cant get interested in most of the indie rpgs.

Couchpotato said:

I am being pessimistic. I rather play a rpg like baldurs gate than play whats being offered by the indies. The engine is over ten years old and still looks better than any spiderweb game.

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That's true. To play the Spiderweb games you just have to let yourself go with the gameplay and forget the graphics. It's possible. I wouldn't believe 6 months ago that I would end up playing, finishing and enjoying Geneforge 5.
It's mental, you should try it. Even the gameplay is quite different from the classics like BG. I'm not saying it's better or worst. It's different. And it's very challenging.

here's my idea

I think a lot of RPG devs could borrow a page or two from the game Frozen Synapse. Those guys are doing some really cool stuff with their turn-based strategy concept and it seems to be working out for them financially and it's a hit w/ the game press.

I honestly think incorporating a Frozen Synapse-style WEGO simultaneous TB combat systmem in an RPG would be a great bridge to get more people to enjoy TB games again. Also, true turn based combat can drag on for a while (Wizardry 8 came to mind here). WEGO battles like in Frozen Synapse would be over in five-ten rounds or less.

Just think: five decisive, really intense rounds, where you plot your characters' every move, hope you've out-thunk your opponent and sit back and watch the sparks fly. The game would be balanced so that enough damage is done, moves are made, and everything resolves relatively quickly. If you lose the battle, no worries, hit reload. If you win, on to the next challenge / battle / story element. As an added bonus, you can replay the whole thing back in real time to see what happened continuously, and savor this as a more cinematic experience.

My idea is kind of like a real-time with pause system, but emphasizing a very detailed queuing of actions during each pause, and having each pause happen during set time intervals, like five or ten seconds.

Aside: From what I've gleaned, Dragon Age 2 does NOT have queueing multiple actions in their combat, even though they are still utilizing a Real-time w Pause system.

Anyway, if this sort of thing doesn't happen, I'm gonna teach myself the programming language du jour and get to it! This game I have in my head… yall don't know what you're missing!

Why cant we have a new wizardry 8 but use the crysis engine?

Dhruin said:

No, King's Bounty is not a AAA game. I don't play the Civ series, so I can't comment. At any rate, the statement was clearly a generalisation and I don't preclude the possibility that there might be a couple of anomalies.

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In that case, there never were any "AAA" tactical RPG's in the first place. I don't recall any tactical turn-based RPG's with cinematic cutscenes and full voiceovers being made in the past (if that defines AAA).
I believe Fallout 1&2 sold less than 250.000 and they were considered successful enough to warrant a sequel (referring to Van Buren).

Dhruin said:

But don't hold your breath. Are King's Bounty (which is really a strategy hybrid) and Civ - not an RPG - your only examples? For how long…nearly a decade? If one TB "AAA" RPG comes out in the next decade, you can claim victory if you like but we'll still have threads exactly like this one, because one or two games a decade is pretty thin territory.

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If you look hard, I think you'll find a few TB non-indie games made in the past 10 years. However, most of them were abysmal or poorly marketed, hence you've never heard of them.

How many realtime party based RPG's were made since 2003 which were not by Bioware or Bioware sequels? One?

Dhruin said:

The "disconnect" is that publishers still support (to a very limited extent) TB strategy but not RPGs. They aren't the same. The other disconnect is that someone is somehow going to fund, say $1M - $2M middle-tier turn-based RPGs and I'm saying that's going to be a rarity.

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No one is claiming an "AAA" TB RPG is suddenly going to appear out of nowhere. However, I certainly think it's possible an indie, "middle-tier", or even a remake is successful enough to spark further interest. It's happened before to "dead" genres.

Dhruin said:

I don't disagree at all that an inexpensively produced turn-based RPG could turn a comfortable little profit but publishers aren't interested in risky small fry and small startups (but bigger than "indie") don't have the $1M or the interest in risking it on a turn-based RPG.

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You're assuming it's impossible for an indie to sell more than a few thousand copies.

Dhruin said:

And for the poster that said I was pessimistic - I'm not. I happily play Spiderweb and other indie games, so the grass is at least somewhat green for me. It's the people who ask for TB gameplay but focus on AAA graphics that have it wrong.

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I'm just saying there's potential to sell a TB RPG to far more than 4000 people.
Despite its bugs, I believe Temple of Elemental Evil was a successful game for Troika. It was their "AAA" action-RPG effort with cinematic cutscenes and full voiceover that sunk their ship (not saying Bloodlines isn't a great game).

Troika employee commenting ToEE sales:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6612&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=100

Apologies for multiquoting .

DArtagnan said:

Are you saying the Civ/TW games haven't increased in popularity from the time of the first iterations?

You said turn-based games are boring, and yet millions of people are buying these titles over and over.

So, how can that be? Explain please.

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Yes i am saying that interesting for the Civs has decline , i can not speak about TW .My point is as you posted "over and over" , it is their declining fan base who stills buy them.I among millions of other traditionally buy FM since 1998 even if i don't play it for more than a week any more .
Modern gamers need adrenaline injections , or "wow" moments and there is nothing amazing in hitting "end of turn" .

TheSisko said:

"Empire: Total War was released on 3 March 2009 to the North American market, and three days later in Europe. The game has become the fastest selling Total War title to date; Empire topped British video game sales charts for all platforms in the week of release, the first PC exclusive title to do so in a year and a half."
I'm sure they were very sad with their declining fan base.

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TW is one of a kind , short of like football manager (FM) playing without competition . I am a member of the Paradox forums and there are loads of new converts to EU series from the TW ranks ; i suppose you know what is the big difference between the two games.
But still even if i am wrong we are not talking about RPGs here , seriously very few people will chose a TB over a RT .

TheSisko said:

So you assume no one else wants an experience because you personally don't tolerate it?

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Noo i never said that , i do not expect everyone to either agree with me or be wrong. Of course i prefer playing Arcanum RT even if i keep on dieing on crush site rather than switch to TB and proceed to the village.

TheSisko said:

Your argument seems to be based on the idea that turnbased games only succeeded because it wasn't possible to make them realtime, and that most of their players wished they were realtime. I simply don't think that's true, specially since realtime games have been around since the 80's.

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My argument is based on the idea that turn based belong to a different era when people could wait , we have changed . I think game developers agree with me , real time sells more because among other factors you don't have to wait.

Alrik Fassbauer said:

Like Adventure games (LucasArts, Sierra) also nearly died out because they are not action-oriented and therefore boring ?

The "industry" dictates what's "boring" and what not ! Imho !

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You do have a point there but the industry is not the high soviet , new stuff occasionally appears and either makes it or not. The industry gives you available options of gaming but it cannot dictate your tastes so you may play Arcania because there is nothing better around but you will never become fan of the series and just wait for another train to jump to.


Again sorry for multiquoting.

ikbenrichard said:

Which game are you making?
Every thought about starting a business for your self?

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It's sort of Dungeon Master + Rogue + Wizardy, and with a single character. If everything turns out like I want, it's going to be with an emphasis on a deep character system, a turn-based highly tactical combat system, and a lot of puzzles and secrets. Basically what I enjoyed about the old great ones taken to a somewhat more modern level, within the boundaries of a single-person dev team.

But my first step is to simply get the "Dungeon Master" part working exactly right - and then I will start adding complexity based on how much I feel I can cope with. Ideally, it will be a very advanced game - but it's possible I'll release a version that is mostly just an updated Dungeon Master with enough complexity to surpass the best of the clones in terms of design.

Yes, I've thought about starting a business a lot - but I'm not going anywhere near that until I have some idea of how people will respond to my work. It's very hard to be objective about your own work, so until I release something playable - I'll have no idea if what I'm doing is worth anything.

Dhruin said:

On the other hand, I've played out BG + BG2 and Spiderweb brings new content ever year or so. But remember, BioWare didn't stay developing BG2-type games, did they? The race for premium production values means chasing mainstream wider audiences means no time for niche audiences. Make your choice.

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Over 2 million sold for Shadows of Amn is "niche"? Maybe Obsidian should've gone for that audience instead of selling less than 500.000 copies of Alpha Protocol.

Yes i am saying that interesting for the Civs has decline , i can not speak about TW .My point is as you posted "over and over" , it is their declining fan base who stills buy them.I among millions of other traditionally buy FM since 1998 even if i don't play it for more than a week any more .
Modern gamers need adrenaline injections , or "wow" moments and there is nothing amazing in hitting "end of turn" .

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Do you have anything to back up your claims that interest in the popular turn-based games is declining?

Sounds to me like you're talking about your own perception as fact.

Personally, I have no illusions about turn-based being particularly popular - but I also believe that's about conditioning and not at all some inherent distaste for it in people.

Afterall, a ton of people are still playing Poker, Solitaire, Civ, Magic the Gathering, and all kinds of turn-based games today - loving it.

I think it's about some genres being connected to a certain kind of turn-based implementation, and it's the COMBINED experience that's too "boring" or "slow" for people who're used to something with a better flow.

That can change, if modern games of these genres introduce a competent turn-based system to the masses. I'm sure it can work, but I doubt any AAA developer has the creative spirit to persuade the fat people in suits.

Tragos said:

Apologies for multiquoting .
Modern gamers need adrenaline injections , or "wow" moments and there is nothing amazing in hitting "end of turn" .

My argument is based on the idea that turn based belong to a different era when people could wait , we have changed . I think game developers agree with me , real time sells more because among other factors you don't have to wait.

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Fascinating, this "era" came in less than 5 years (Civ IV is the best selling Civ game) and everyone is now fundamentally changed?

What about the Sims games, sure not TB but they sure seem to have a lot of waiting in them. Maybe you just like action games? I think you're somehow interpreting the fact that major devs are trying to sell to the CoD crowd with "everyone" wanting fast action gameplay.

TheSisko said:

Over 2 million sold for Shadows of Amn is "niche"? Maybe Obsidian should've gone for that audience instead of selling less than 500.000 copies of Alpha Protocol.

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I was thinking of TB CRPG enthusiasts. The point still generally stands - 2M isn't good enough for BioWare these days.

(Irrelevant point: Alpha Protocol passed 700k ages ago - I'd be surprised if it hadn't hit 1M by now.)

I wonder what kind of return one can expect for each copy sold as an indie - one tenth after all expenses related to distribution etc.?

TheSisko said:

In that case, there never were any "AAA" tactical RPG's in the first place. I don't recall any tactical turn-based RPG's with cinematic cutscenes and full voiceovers being made in the past (if that defines AAA).
I believe Fallout 1&2 sold less than 250.000 and they were considered successful enough to warrant a sequel (referring to Van Buren).

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You can't apply current expectations for AAA to the past, just as you can't directly compare the sales numbers.

If you look hard, I think you'll find a few TB non-indie games made in the past 10 years. However, most of them were abysmal or poorly marketed, hence you've never heard of them.

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You might be surprised at what I've heard of but shouldn't you be providing the examples in this case? Just one CRPG would be interesting. Actually, I just thought of one: Metalheart. Complete crap. Got another?

How many realtime party based RPG's were made since 2003 which were not by Bioware or Bioware sequels? One?

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Indeed, not many. Are you suggesting that a lack of party-based RPGs proves something for TB RPGs?

No one is claiming an "AAA" TB RPG is suddenly going to appear out of nowhere. However, I certainly think it's possible an indie, "middle-tier", or even a remake is successful enough to spark further interest. It's happened before to "dead" genres.

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Sure, of course it's possible. I'm not trying to say it's "impossible", just a rarity (the word I think I used). Lets come back to this in five years, count them up and see if I'm wrong.

You're assuming it's impossible for an indie to sell more than a few thousand copies.

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No, I'm most assuredly not. I even specifically said I agreed there was modest sales potential for a medium budget game. Didn't you read that? My question is not the sales but how is development going to be funded?

I'm just saying there's potential to sell a TB RPG to far more than 4000 people.
Despite its bugs, I believe Temple of Elemental Evil was a successful game for Troika. It was their "AAA" action-RPG effort with cinematic cutscenes and full voiceover that sunk their ship (not saying Bloodlines isn't a great game).

Troika employee commenting ToEE sales:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6612&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=100

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Yeah, I read that years ago. You're wrong in your assumptions, however. Bloodlines didn't sink Troika - a lack of new signed projects did. "Successful" is a difficult term to interpret given the lack of context. ToEE was essentially a "work for hire" - I doubt it generated royalties for Troika and it didn't lead to a sequel, which you yourself used as an indication of success for Fallout.

To reiterate because it obviously isn't clear: I completely agree a TB CRPG can be modestly successful. A modest project could be profitable. However - with rare exceptions - I don't see a financing model. Major publishers aren't interested and we're talking about "better than indie". Small publishers aren't going to take the risk, leaving the occasional Russian project or similar.

Dhruin said:

I was thinking of TB CRPG enthusiasts. The point still generally stands - 2M isn't good enough for BioWare these days.

(Irrelevant point: Alpha Protocol passed 700k ages ago - I'd be surprised if it hadn't hit 1M by now.)

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Fair enough. A better example would be the NWN2 series. They are similar enough to BG2, the ruleset is more complex even.

Mask of the Betrayer exceeded sales expectations according to Obsidian, so it's certainly viable to make a similar game and turn a profit. Just because Bioware (or even Obsidian) is targeting higher sales numbers doesn't mean no one else will do it.

Dhruin said:

You can't apply current expectations for AAA to the past, just as you can't directly compare the sales numbers.

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I consider AAA a term for mainstream "mass entertainment" games targeting sales in millions. The gaming equivalent to a Hollywood blockbuster. There were not many "AAA" titles in the past, Fallout 1&2 were certainly not AAA. Yes, the major publishers are only interested in AAA games just as the major film companies are only interested in blockbusters.

That doesn't mean all niche-films are indies and only watched by 10000 people. Just because 2 1/2 Men is watched by 20 million people doesn't mean all TV-series aspire to clone it.

The current gaming market might not have a good method of funding profitable mid-budget games aimed at niches but if there is a market for them, it will find a way to do so.

Dhruin said:

You might be surprised at what I've heard of but shouldn't you be providing the examples in this case? Just one CRPG would be interesting. Actually, I just thought of one: Metalheart. Complete crap. Got another?

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Here's one: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/godslandofinfinity/review.html
Apparantly it sucked. Does that mean only crap TB games get funding?

Dhruin said:

Indeed, not many. Are you suggesting that a lack of party-based RPGs proves something for TB RPGs?

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It means that no-one (except Bioware/Obsidian) is making realtime party-based RPG's either. I note this because some people make it sound like "everyone" is doing realtime party because turn-based is dead. As for single PC games, I think even turn-based fans prefer them realtime because of the reduced need for positioning tactics.

Dhruin said:

No, I'm most assuredly not. I even specifically said I agreed there was modest sales potential for a medium budget game. Didn't you read that? My question is not the sales but how is development going to be funded?

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Maybe it will become easier once they get tired of funding big budget CoD clones that fail to sell

Dhruin said:

To reiterate because it obviously isn't clear: I completely agree a TB CRPG can be modestly successful. A modest project could be profitable. However - with rare exceptions - I don't see a financing model. Major publishers aren't interested and we're talking about "better than indie". Small publishers aren't going to take the risk, leaving the occasional Russian project or similar.

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TB CRPGs always were modest projects with projected sales of a few 100K:s. The difference is that the publishers had modest expectations. Those old publishers are now big and want mainstream games, but I don't think the business model itself is impossible (being a small publisher of niche games).

Tragos said:

You do have a point there but the industry is not the high soviet , new stuff occasionally appears and either makes it or not. The industry gives you available options of gaming but it cannot dictate your tastes so you may play Arcania because there is nothing better around but you will never become fan of the series and just wait for another train to jump to.

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No, because LucasArts has at one point decided to just cancel the last Sam & Max game and to stop producing adventures altogether, because they thought that here in Europe no-one was playing adventures anymore. http://www.telltalegames.com/summerofsamandmax/history/history4b

Production seemed to be going well, but in March 2004, Freelance Police was unexpectedly cancelled. "I can still remember the chill that went down my spine when our marketing department informed me that the entire population of European adventure game players had, over the course of less than three months, died," says Stemmle. "You'd think a massacre of such proportions would've been reported more widely." LucasArts officially attributed the decision to "current marketplace realities" and "underlying economic conditions" and, in one fell swoop, caused Sam & Max fans around the world to weep. Openly.

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Did they rely on consulting companies ? Were some consultants providing them with data about Europe ? And how did they come up with this data anyway ?

Alrik Fassbauer said:

No, because LucasArts has at one point decided to just cancel the last Sam & Max game and to stop producing adventures altogether, because they thought that here in Europe no-one was playing adventures anymore. http://www.telltalegames.com/summerofsamandmax/history/history4b

Did they rely on consulting companies ? Were some consultants providing them with data about Europe ? And how did they come up with this data anyway ?

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It's pretty simple. They think they will have more success with other types of games and come up with a justification. It's like when a game dev cuts a feature because "no-one" was using it. If they stop making it, they want it to be dead and so they say it already is.

This sounds to me like this :

"Why are they doing it ?"
"Because they can !"

IMO everything in this turn based matter really depends on success of Age Of Decadence. This is about as interesting and advanced project as you can get at the moment and if it flops then it`s curtains for more-than-a-Flash turn based western Crpgs. At least for a few good years.

I got mega depressed upon learning of the Drakensang`s fate. And it wasn`t even an "indie" game, it had some production values.

zadokAllen said:

IMO everything in this turn based matter really depends on success of Age Of Decadence. This is about as interesting and advanced project as you can get at the moment and if it flops then it`s curtains for more-than-a-Flash turn based western Crpgs. At least for a few good years.

I got mega depressed upon learning of the Drakensang`s fate. And it wasn`t even an "indie" game, it had some production values.

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I think a big part of the problem is that everyone is desperately trying to be "AAA" even if it means horrible voice-acting and poor game mechanics.

Meanwhile, ancient games like Half Life 1 can still sell tens of thousands each month on Steam, while old RPG's seem to be doing well on GoG.com. Drakensang didn't seem to try to be anything else than a poor-mans Dragon Age.