The "game" was fun, i miss party dynamics and the paperdoll

Weird title perhaps. A bit bored, and this is just a biased thought, no science here.

I miss the creativity in old rpg's in which you could experiment with your own "builds" to build your strategy to see if it works. This is an element that is less common today, if it even exists. Two lost elements come to mind; party and paperdoll.

Assembling a party meant you had to mix multiple characters with different abilities that contribute to eachother. This is especially fun when you have buffing abilities that can change and enhance features, reduce weaknesses etc. Nowadays you often have one or three characters with very similar abilities, and you rarely have the option to pick someone beyond what the story give you. It used to be that you had 6-8 characters to mix, what happened? Too complex?

Picking items that contribute to your strategy is another aspect I miss. The paperdoll is rare nowadays. It used to be that you had like nine items to stack on each character to enhance their strength and fill their holes. Where did this experimentation go?

These was fun, creative components in old games. Is the loss of this creativity fun? Accessible?

Give me a new, mainstream rpg that allows me to recruit 5 characters and 9-slot paperdolls.

Complexity and rich gameplay won't sell = mainstream is out of the picture.

Dragon Age has 4 characters and 9 slots (10 if you count the ranged ammo type). It's not too far off the requirement. However, the different "talent trees" are too streamlined in my opinion - every other class and subclass but the mage can pick every desirable talent.

Beyond that, I'd say people are overestimating the "games of old". In games like BG2 there's very little actual experimentation going on - no more than in new games in any case. If there was, it's because the system itself was more difficult to understand. The actual items are fairly straight forward, with certain items being a whole lot better than most (Celestial Fury, Carsomyr, Flail of the Ages, etc). There is also no point in having more than one set of gear.

I know that several MMOs are fairly advanced in terms of gear choice, and often require different sets of gear for different situations, but it's not something I've seen a lot in single player games.

As far as class talents and builds go, I'd say NWN2 (especially with MotB) is probably the most advanced I've seen. The combinations available there are incredible (multiclassing, feats, spells, skills, etc), and you can make pretty much any type of character you want. In Storm of Zehir, which is pretty much a party simulator, it's possible to be very creative when making a party.

JemyM said:

I miss the creativity in old rpg's in which you could experiment with your own "builds" to build your strategy to see if it works. This is an element that is less common today, if it even exists. Two lost elements come to mind; party and paperdoll.

Click to expand...

Look to Indies. Knights of the Chalice is an excellent game that offers exactly what you said you miss. There is no story to speak of, but it was fun coming up with different strategies to overcome my opponents. They aren't the pushovers that are the norm nowadays.

If you want something with better graphics then Drakensang or Dragon Age. Although Drakensang probably offers more of what you are looking for. You can only create one character in the beginning, but you will pick up more as you travel around.

The Ultima 6 Project for Dungeon Siege is another option. It's an excellent update to the classic U6.

Other than those you can just check out indies as those are the only real developers now for party based RPGs. Maybe that will change with the success of Dragon Age, but I doubt any of the AAAs will have the complexity of the older games like the Wizardry series or Realms of Arkania.

Some indies off the top of my head would be Avernum, Geneforge (You can tailor make your party at any given time),Nethergate, Devil Whiskey (upgraded Bard's Tale), Fastcrawl (not really what your looking for, but it is a fun coffee break style Party RPG).

The only real developer I know of is Spiderweb. He consistently stays in the Party RPG genre. It might not be as complex as you may like, but it's better than nothing. Here's hoping that Frayed Knights and Age of Decadence are as good as they look.

So there's two points, parties and paper doll. I see how you link them but that's two different points.

I also quote your focus is fight based and you don't develop at all any other points like story based, world exploration point of view, interaction with NPC and more.

About parties, there have been during the 00's a clear evolution to CRPG using a single hero and no party. The reasons are multiple but the main are probably:

• Old CRPG was turn based for most and now it's more real time and action based, this real time approach is more easy with a single character to control.
• No party to control allow let the player see the world in a closer view to highlight better the 3D details.
• Increase immersion by giving to the player a centered point of view from any elements of the game, story, controls, view of the world, and more.
• Match better more story focus and avoiding manage complexity of multiple heroes. Avoid to have to make credible from a story point of view other heroes (members in party) slave to the main hero.
• Make more easy for the player to identify to the hero than to identify to a party.
• The global morale have evolved, it was a bit more group and cooperation centered point of view, and now it's a little to a more self centered point of view. A sort of side element of the ultra liberalism.

Myself I also prefer party, and in practice the reason is the fights, but in hope the reason is also NPC interaction, but I have yet to see that point developed in the ways I'm hoping, but that's another topic.

About the paper doll I have to disagree with you, I consider that in many old CRPG classes had a bad design. I didn't played much old CRPG, not enough to have a global view, but in all cases I remember very static classes, not offering much choices of development. And I consider some more modern CRPG brought huge improvement to classes design. That point is perhaps I haven't played the right old games but I'll hardly be wrong with almost all SSI games and that's a lot, nor with all M&M games, most older JRPG. For Ultima games like approach it's even worse for me, it's like that there's no more classes and I don't like much this approach, even less when party is involved.

About the items importance I also have to disagree, items that are uber up to the point to cancel the classes meaning, is a bad design.

About DAO I agree it's a good counter example inside modern games and also that classes choices aren't so flexible with one huge exception the mage class. Other classes has variations that are too much attribute oriented involving a necessary specialization inside the class to optimize a little a character. On another point I consider DAO is also taking a good approach by focusing more on special skills, it's just a lot more fun than purely increase some skills. The point is to find how offer choices for all classes, linked to each class design, and keep this special skill approach avoiding as much than possible pure math improvements of same skills.

You'll find in ARPG better example of strong class design with a real possible customization, all influenced by the original design of classes in the Diablo series. But that's not party based games.

You sound a lot like a spreadsheet gamer with that demand list, JemyM. Min/Max/Mesh is a great way to game, in my eye. Very little new stuff that will scratch that itch, though. Honestly, the last game that really hit that spot was Dungeon Siege 2, and you've got to be willing to deal with the action-rpg mechanics to enjoy that. Mostly, I have to replay Wiz8 or MM7 when the spreadsheet bug bites. Maybe Drakensang will do the trick, but I quit my run too soon to really say for certain.

Even in the indie realm, it's slim. Eschalon did a great job, but it's single character. Spiderweb games are right there, but appear to be a bit of an acquired taste.

Just wait for Grimoire!!

Corwin said:

Just wait for Grimoire!!

Click to expand...

it's 4 days to release anyway.

If only SirTech made Wizardry 9... (sniff, sniff)

metamorphium said:

it's 4 centuries to release anyway.

If only SirTech made Wizardry 9… (sniff, sniff)

Click to expand...

Fixed.

If I ever won the lottery (I mean the BIG lotto) I'd see about picking up the Wizardry trademarks and pushing ahead with a Wiz9. But that's only if I could seriously invest into a company, one that could make and market such a thing properly.

azraelck said:

If I ever won the lottery (I mean the BIG lotto) I'd see about picking up the Wizardry trademarks and pushing ahead with a Wiz9. But that's only if I could seriously invest into a company, one that could make and market such a thing properly.

Click to expand...

I just put in my pre-order at Amazon. Do you expect to release Wiz9 before Grimoire comes out?

I had high hopes for D.W. Bradley. Wizards & Warriors was ok, but buggy. Dungeon Lords was not ok, and far more buggy. DL2 may not happen before Grimoire.

azraelck said:

Fixed.

If I ever won the lottery (I mean the BIG lotto) I'd see about picking up the Wizardry trademarks and pushing ahead with a Wiz9. But that's only if I could seriously invest into a company, one that could make and market such a thing properly.

Click to expand...

Well, the thing is, that a low genreal demand for such kind of game can't possibly justify investing in such a huge game as W9 would have been. As demography of your average computer player shifts more and more from computer enthusiast to people who use computers in the similar matter as a microwave oven (why IMO consoles are popular), the direction in the approach to gaming went thus mainstream.

Even if there's still viable market for indie development (read trying to have no costs apart from time invest and getting some money for the efforts), project like W9 requires a lot of people, a lot of energy invested and the team wouldn't stay for so long without being properly paid.

So even IF you won the big lottery (and the costs would be probably way lower today because of ready-made engines which are licensable nowadays which IIRC was the reason why W8 development was so pricey and took so long) coupled with editors, you would still want to see your money back at the end of the day. And here I fear the few people at rpgwatch and similar forums wouldn't cut it.

And making a game controlled by one controller button which is called Wizardry 9? Let it rather RIP in it's 8th glory.

Ah, but see that's the thing. I'd have one team building FPS games for mass consumption. Thus, a big seller right now. Wiz9, Eclipse, and any other RPG or TBS games would be supported by those. Since a proper RPG takes considerably more time to develop, I could have 2-3 shooters having generated enough money to invest into Wiz9.

With a little work and some luck, the same 3D engine used for the FPS can be adapted to work with a turn based Wizardry RPG system. It would take more luck to use 1 engine for top down games as well though. A lot more. That would be the ideal situation though, using a single engine for the entire lineup.

Unlike most, my company would be privately owned, and not held to the whims and desires of any shareholders besides myself. And It would publish as well as develop on it's own, meaning insane, criminal publishers wouldn't be stealing any IPs, or insisting on viruses and malware to be packaged in as "DRM". Or refusing to pay the devs and trying to fire everybody to avoid actually paying for their work. So I'd pretty much only care about whether the company turned a profit. Projects like a TBS or a Wizardry-style game would get passes so long as they don't cost more than the mainstream stuff can bring in as profit.

It's all a moot point, since I haven't won the lottery yet, and Grimoire has a better chance of coming out ever than my winning 300+m dollars on a lottery ticket.

JemyM said:

Assembling a party meant you had to mix multiple characters with different abilities that contribute to eachother. This is especially fun when you have buffing abilities that can change and enhance features, reduce weaknesses etc.

Click to expand...

The fan in me says "Drakensang 2 !", but the serious man in me isn't quite ure whether he fully undersands what you want.

Sure, you can develop the party members on Drakensang 2 to very similar characters, but for example only Elves and Magicians can do spells. There are no scrolls one can use, only a very few magical artifcts - of which I've encountered only one that s actually ncessary for completing a quest.

Only a thief can unlock doors. Well, here's th spell "Foramen", too, for that, but only studied magicians are able to use that, no Elves, if i remember this correctly.

The game also has a new type of character which I'd translate as a "sanctified one". This one is in part like, in other parts unlike a "Cleric".

In Drakensang 2, that type is only vailable for 1 out of 12 Gods.

And he is the only one able to do a God's "Miracles". Which can be a great help in some places.

Drakensag 2 is to me like a kind of test-bed for that "Holy Man" kind of character.

I'm very, very sure that there'll be more of that in the course of time, because a) the community want them (one type for each of the 12 Gods), and b) there are already hints (in the forms of items) in the full game towards "santified ones" for another God(ess).

But this will take at least 1-2-3 games, i guess. The implementation is difficult. seen from the Pen & Paper system's perspective.

But ... If all of these things will be implemented one days - after, let's say 10 games - then the TDE games will be a great experience. I think they might even have potential to get a lot of customers from the (A)D&D base back - perhaps even those who'd rathr want ot "old school".

The only problem for Radon Labs will be the balance - Mass appeal PLUS niche appeal ... And that will be difficult ...


Sorry, but the fan in me took over once again ...

It's that mass appeal that's the problem. Most people are only willing to play things that give them few choices which affect success or failure. See a FPS, they all have little choices beyond what weapons you have (and many don't matter at all there as you can carry all of them at once). But you don't have any way to make your character less effective by choice; it's all twitch based.

A game like Wizardry 7, where you have to spend some time rolling characters and building them to be effective. Then they die right off the bat due to a bad roll. That's something that most people will drop quickly. In short, most people have worst taste than my dog (my cats crawl in my lap and watch me play when I'm playing Wiz7). He just sniffs butts.

I have no idea if appealing to people who like a complex and rich design, with many options for creating your party will be possible while appealing to people who like games that consist solely of running in straight lines and shooting everything that appears.

I have no idea if appealing to people who like a complex and rich design, with many options for creating your party will be possible while appealing to people who like games that consist solely of running in straight lines and shooting everything that appears.

Click to expand...

I disagree entirely that it's about poor/good taste.

That said, the more complex and the more "rich" you make your design, especially in terms of gameplay mechanics - the less people are going to find it appealing.

It's extremely basic.

Some might claim that NWN2 is an example of the opposite, but it's not really a mainstream title.

Dragon Age is, according to Bioware themselves, a rarity. They clearly stated that if it's not a big enough success - then they'll stop making such games. Thankfully, they managed to streamline it and market it to success - but I don't consider it "good enough" in terms of being a rich CRPG.

It's an excellent AAA title, but it pales in comparison to BG/NWN - in my opinion.

Nah, the time for such games in the AAA market is over.

azraelck said:

Unlike most, my company would be privately owned, and not held to the whims and desires of any shareholders besides myself. And It would publish as well as develop on it's own, meaning insane, criminal publishers wouldn't be stealing any IPs, or insisting on viruses and malware to be packaged in as "DRM". Or refusing to pay the devs and trying to fire everybody to avoid actually paying for their work. So I'd pretty much only care about whether the company turned a profit. Projects like a TBS or a Wizardry-style game would get passes so long as they don't cost more than the mainstream stuff can bring in as profit.

It's all a moot point, since I haven't won the lottery yet, and Grimoire has a better chance of coming out ever than my winning 300+m dollars on a lottery ticket.

Click to expand...

You and I have the exact same dream. Except if I had $300m I wouldn't bother with the FPS'ers to generate revenue. That's plenty of starting cash, after that I'd only need to break even on the RPGs. Then I'd be a happy man and incidentally the rest of you RPGWatchers would revere me as a god for releasing a hardcore old-school state-of-the-art RPG every other year.

azraelck said:

…In short, most people have worst taste than my dog (my cats crawl in my lap and watch me play when I'm playing Wiz7). He just sniffs butts.

I have no idea if appealing to people who like a complex and rich design, with many options for creating your party will be possible while appealing to people who like games that consist solely of running in straight lines and shooting everything that appears.

Click to expand...

LOL, you are a little full of yourself, that's the point? Wiz7 a complex and rich design… Well well, I'd be curious to know what's so amazing. Better puzzles than Dungeon Master? Classes? Fights design like JRPG? Well I didn't check anything about the game but how fan are you of this series and how old you was when you played it? I know there's a few hardcore fan of this series here but that won't make the game more deep and better designed.

EDIT: A question you should ask yourself before look from above those that don't like this series. What are the flaws of Wiz7? None?

I agree with DArtagnan regarding NWN2 - it might seem like an exception, but it's actually not. It's just not a mainstream title, it's aimed almost directly at us.

Still, the fact that we have had both NWN2 and DA in recent years means we can hope for similar games in the future. We might not get a lot of games like that, but then again.. did we ever?

I believe the problem is not only the size of the market, but also the fact that such games are very complex - only a few developers can pull off such projects at all.

It's that mass appeal that's the problem. Most people are only willing to play things that give them few choices which affect success or failure.

Click to expand...

I think that's an illusion, honestly. 11 million WoW players and it has all the stats of a good sp RPG behind it.

The difference is in how it is presented. Blizzard does a good job of easing people into it, in the beginning you quite naturally swap out gear for new gear without caring, as you get into the later parts then good gear becomes important and forum debate rages over which stats are best for what character in what role.

The point is, I think the marketers underestimate people. Most adult humans (and the average age of gamers is 30) deal with a lot of numbers and complexity in their day-to-day lives.

I don't think it's that they are unable or unwilling, I think it's how it's presented to them. Most number heavy RPGs throw their numbers at the player all at once in character creation. WoW just gets you to pick a class and race and off you go. It gives the people who are intimidated by walls of numbers a chance to ease into it.

I'm the type that likes crunchy char creation systems in my games, but I can see the value of that approach.

I don't think it's that they are unable or unwilling, I think it's how it's presented to them. Most number heavy RPGs throw their numbers at the player all at once in character creation. WoW just gets you to pick a class and race and off you go. It gives the people who are intimidated by walls of numbers a chance to ease into it.

I'm the type that likes crunchy char creation systems in my games, but I can see the value of that approach.

Click to expand...

It's not just how it's presented, it's how necessary it is to care about such details.

WoW scales extremely well between casuals and hardcore players, and the vast majority are casual players. They don't encounter the complexity, but then - the game doesn't require them to.

If we're talking about a traditional CRPG - then the game needs to require an understanding of complexity or richness of gameplay, or it won't make sense to implement them.

If I can create a godlike character by being extremely smart or "into the mechanics" - it better make sense to have one. Because if I can complete the game blindfolded (which you can do with most of WoW's content) - then I won't bother.

Then there's the whole social aspect of WoW. Not only do many players enjoy the game for that reason alone, they also have a ton of hardcore players to "educate" them and investing in the tough raid encounters - so they don't need to do much themselves.

Nah, WoW DOES have a high degree of complexity in terms of character and combat mechanics - but in terms of cerebral "demands" or challenges - it's not very interesting. No puzzles, no advanced interaction with NPCs, no C&C in quests - and so on.

If a developer manages to develop a singleplayer CRPG catering to both crowds, then maybe it might work - but it takes a great effort, and to be honest - I don't think hardcore players would be satisfied. The same is true with WoW - and I think "hardcore" players are less satisfied with the complexity and mechanics, than they are with the competitive aspect and the sense of achievement. It's a different KIND of hardcore player, that what we're talking about here.

Actually, I think Jemy and the rest of us are better labelled "enthusiasts" - where as the players of WoW wanting to be best at raiding/arena could be called hardcore players.