Protestant church close to splitting

So, you believe in Paul's letters then ? You're not eating Kosher and you're not observing the traditions of the OT ?

I do follow Paul's teachings. I believe that, as it says in the Bible, that he was chosen to lead the Church in that manner. As a Christian, I celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday. I also do contribute significantly to charity, both inside and outside the Church.

If the arguments started as early as then on what's supposed to be true ? How can the ideas of today's churches actually be true if they're all different?

The ideas of today's Churches are basically the same as the Proto-Orthodox Church (the opposite of the Gnostics before there was really any political legitimacy to either).

How do you know Jesus' idea wasn't just to show everyone that they were sinning and that they should come back to their origins ? Jesus was a student of a rabbi back then and what he preached wasn't much different than what Hillel his mentor did. I know Jesus said: "I am", which can mean that he is God, but he also says that only the Father knows some stuff and that he is underneath the Father. How do you know he is God ?

It's a matter of faith. I can never prove the Jesus was the Son of God, and the Trinity is definitely a mind blower. You either chose to believe or not. Again, at some point, unless God decides to come down and tell you to your face, you have to make that leap of faith, it can't be proven. Strangely enough, I view Jesus as a bit of an Avatar, the physical manifestation of God on Earth, so he is both God and not God.

There's a big difference though. Knowing murdering is wrong or knowing not having sex before marriage is wrong, is not the same as telling you that you are wrong. Not that you answered one question wrong, but that you're built wrong.

But pretty much everyone has had a desire to murder someone at some point, and I dare say EVERYONE has had a desire to have premarital sex or cheat on their spouse. Having a desire to do something doesn't make it right.

Acting on a false desire (gay men marrying women or gay women marrying men) may lead to a very sad life for the couple but also for the children. You might be going to heaven if you don't do anything else wrong, but you'd be living in hell now.

Agreed. I don't think someone should get married just to get married, you definitely have to accept who you are.

Isn't it the duty of Christians to pass on the word of Christ ?
Wouldn't it go against your beliefs if you don't show other people the way of Truth ?

Yes it is my duty, but I firmly believe in the "you get farther with a teaspoon of sugar than a gallon of vinegar." That's why I'll talk until I am blue in the face about it. I'll even tell you that I don't believe what you believe (assuming you believe something different). I'll go so far as to say that yes, if you don't repent at some point (which goes into another matter, but I do believe in a last change, not just straight to hell once you die), you'll likely end up in Hell. And that's a concept that I struggle with given my belief in a merciful God.

But I won't berate you for your beliefs, or just tell you you are wrong.

Early Christians spread their beliefs by talking about it, not by threatening people.

Is it calling a marriage that bothers you ? Or is it the contract ?

It gets to the point of what a marriage is or isn't. For state purposes, it's just a contract, and hence I have no problem with a contract being two adults, whatever the nature. As for a Church though, it is something completely different.

Yes, but Christians are one of the only ones who've persecuted people of the same faith...

Quite wrong. Islam has perspecuted between their different sects. Hell, look at a lot of what has gone on in Iraq. Shites and Sunni's do NOT get along. Even the Jews, not so much currently, but when the original Israeli state existed persecuted their own over religious differences. This is not unique to Christianity at all.

You mention that gospels were written after Jesus' death. According to what I've read, all of them were. The originals might have not, but the latest found were at least 30 years or so after Jesus' death.

It is likely that it was carried as an oral tradition for some time, if for no other reason than it was dangerous to write them down. The Romans brutally persecuted Christians and the Jews weren't much better. Both viewed them as a danger to the existing establishment.

Also, the gospel of Judas, which is the only one I really know about, from National Geographic, tells a completely different tale.

The tale is pretty similar in most respects (at least the basic facts), the issue is that it is told from Judas's perspective and it shows him as not a villain but rather as understanding the Christ's sacrifice was necessary and hence he had no choice. It's an interesting piece, but does not appear in any record until significantly after most of the other Gospels, canonical or not. It reflects many ideas that were creeping into Christianity at the time (That Christ HAD to die for us to achieve salvation, that Christians blamed the Jews for Jesus's death, etc.)

It's an interesting piece, but it shows up pretty late in the record and while it can be debated that whether the other Gospel's were actually authored by their namesakes, it doesn't appear even during its use, that Judas was thought to have authored the piece.

Still, even if they all told about the same tale, why were they left out? Are some apostles more important than others? If so, by whose account ?

Some were left out because they would have caused confusion. Some because they didn't add anything (like Thomas). Some because they had things in them that were very contrary to the prevailing beliefs of the others. It's like the example I put above about the 12 witnesses. At some point, you have to make a judgment call on who is right and who is not.

Additionally, the Gnostic sects were very much against the developing Church as a hierarchal organization. Now maybe they got that right, but it caused a lot of friction.

The gospels of the gnostics are also completely different, not even talking about Jesus' death and resurrection. Isn't that what's so important about Jesus, that he died for humanity's sins and then resurrected?

Yes and no. First, the gnostic gospels aren't completely different. They don't make the death and resurrection as much of a focus (even not including it in some), but they never dispute Jesus's divinity. Salvation is still the focus, and it still comes through Jesus.

But the canonical Gospels weren't written by him. They were written by mere humans like you and me. I want you to try something, I even did once. Watch a movie and pay close attention to all the details about how everything happened. Next day write things they said down. Things important to you. Tell me how much of it you get right ?

Now translate that into a document of massive importance, where every word matters. Imagine this with the Bible. Tell me what you think about this...

That's the exact problem! No disputing it. However, realize that not every apostle was with Jesus everyday, and even if they wrote it down, right then and there, they'll still write it down differently. That's why the details aren't the most important thing, the central message is. And that message is simply that salvation comes through acceptance of Christ. Whether that comes through self-awareness or blind acceptance really doesn't manner, and in fact, you need a little of both. How can you accept Jesus if you don't understand yourself? Your own faults and desires and such? But at some point, you'll have to take a few things on faith too, because you can't prove everything.


So the belief in Jesus is the only thing that matters in Christianity ?

ultimately yes. The only thing that matters is accepting Jesus into your heart thus accepting him as your savior and only hope for eternal salvation.


Yes it would. I have trouble with most organized religions of today, since the more I read about it the more I see they've all been corrupted. Different forms of paganism can't really bother me, since I have no idea about them.
Islam's Sunni,Shia and other forms are actually still much closer together than let's say the Orthodox church and the Anglican Church.
Also, Judaism is split Ashkenazim and Seferadim. But like Islam, until more recently with the Reformed Jews, was much closer to each other than Christianity's churches.

Prior to the past few hundred years (and obviously some of the first few centuries), there were basically The Roman Catholics, The Orthodox, the Coptics, and one more (can't think of the name). Their core beliefs were mainly the same, though their were some differences. However, they were all political institutions as much as religious ones, and thus spawned the reformation and the various other splits that followed.

I'll say this, on the outside it may seem like the various splits are widely different, but from the inside I don't think so. I have friends from all of the major Christian denominations and while we may disagree on various points, we all hold the same core beliefs.

Like I said above though, it all bothers me. And talking about others isn't an excuse for one's own religion. Since we're currently evaluating Christianity, this bothers me about Christianity, since it is split about so many issues.

That's understandable. You ultimately have to come to your own consensus.
 
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I basically support all of the above.
 
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It's a matter of faith. I can never prove the Jesus was the Son of God, and the Trinity is definitely a mind blower. You either chose to believe or not. Again, at some point, unless God decides to come down and tell you to your face, you have to make that leap of faith, it can't be proven. Strangely enough, I view Jesus as a bit of an Avatar, the physical manifestation of God on Earth, so he is both God and not God.

I don't understand how people who weren't taught to believe it then come to believe it.

I think that from my posts you could have gathered I was Jewish, or I might have hid it well enough ;)
If not for the internet and my parents not really being religious, I would probably have been taught to believe in everything that is Jewish. I started using the internet when I was about 8 years old and from it have learned a lot more about different cultures and religion. This has made me to believe that all religions aspire to the same, but that true faith either comes through 'indoctrination' or through an extraordinary occurrence in live. All faiths want peace in the world, even if the means can maybe mean war, the end is peace and/or a place with god and/or heaven.
I have encountered very few people who converted to a certain faith because they started believing in its core beliefs. What I mean by all this is that this leap of faith you're talking about isn't easy for anyone, but is close to impossible for someone who hasn't been taught to believe.
I know belief is a matter of faith and does not need to be proven, not for the believers that is. But for others ...


But pretty much everyone has had a desire to murder someone at some point, and I dare say EVERYONE has had a desire to have premarital sex or cheat on their spouse. Having a desire to do something doesn't make it right.

It still isn't the same thing as homosexuality.
There seems to be a few options:
1. Homosexuality is an illness

If so, then there has to be some kind of cure. Having a pastor, priest, imam, rabbi, psychiatrist talk to the person should with time help the person off their desire to have sex.

2. Homosexuality is a state of being

You either are homosexual or you're not. There's no cure. It's not an illness so no cure is needed. Premarital sex isn't allowed, but then why can't homosexuals just marry and then have sex. The desire is to have sex with someone of the same sex, the act is having sex. Not acting on it at all is nothing more but torture.

3. Homosexuality is just a physiological aspect and is how you're built. (tied in to 2, but still a little bit different)

Saying that being homosexual is wrong is the same thing as saying that being black, white, yellow or blue is wrong. It's not an act like above. It's just how someone is.


Agreed. I don't think someone should get married just to get married, you definitely have to accept who you are.

Then you're just torturing homosexuals, since extra-marital sex is forbidden and they can't marry someone of the same sex.

Early Christians spread their beliefs by talking about it, not by threatening people.

A bit later they didn't though.

Quite wrong. Islam has perspecuted between their different sects. Hell, look at a lot of what has gone on in Iraq. Shites and Sunni's do NOT get along. Even the Jews, not so much currently, but when the original Israeli state existed persecuted their own over religious differences. This is not unique to Christianity at all.

Shias and Sunnis do not get along, but it's been worked on more as an ethnicity now than just religion. I don't think that changing from one sect to the other is so easy as converting from let's say Southern Baptism to Orthodoxy. It has become ethnic.
They're not trying to convert each other, they're killing each other.
What period are you talking about for the Jews ?


It is likely that it was carried as an oral tradition for some time, if for no other reason than it was dangerous to write them down. The Romans brutally persecuted Christians and the Jews weren't much better. Both viewed them as a danger to the existing establishment.

Which could make it even less authentic...

Some were left out because they would have caused confusion. Some because they didn't add anything (like Thomas). Some because they had things in them that were very contrary to the prevailing beliefs of the others. It's like the example I put above about the 12 witnesses. At some point, you have to make a judgment call on who is right and who is not.

Additionally, the Gnostic sects were very much against the developing Church as a hierarchal organization. Now maybe they got that right, but it caused a lot of friction.

But why not leave all of them in ? This makes these 4 Gospels, the Gospels of Truth while the others get a lower status. The other apostles' writing is not as good.

What do you mean about the Gnostic sects?

ultimately yes. The only thing that matters is accepting Jesus into your heart thus accepting him as your savior and only hope for eternal salvation.

Of course the classical question is the one about how the most evil person in the world who has murdered and committed acts of atrocity in his life. At some point he talks to a priest, pastor, reverend or the pope himself and comes to realize his mistakes. He also starts believing in Jesus. That person will go to heaven ?

While someone who has done only the best for his family, for his friends and has even shown love to his neighbour and strangers. He only did acts of charity and kindness in his life. The only thing is that he doesn't believe in Jesus and he hasn't spoken to a pastor,priest, reverend or the pope. He will go to hell ?

So to summarize:
Evil murderer goes to heaven ?
Good charitable men goes to hell ?

How can you believe such a thing ?

(I have to admit I was waiting for this moment...)

Another question is, what about all the people who have not heard about Jesus, do they automatically get banished to hell ? Or do they get the option when they die ?
Since Christianity only started expanding in the West at first, did all those people in the East or in Africa, or in the New World go to hell ?

I'll say this, on the outside it may seem like the various splits are widely different, but from the inside I don't think so. I have friends from all of the major Christian denominations and while we may disagree on various points, we all hold the same core beliefs.

The only core belief I can see that is really the same is the fact that Jesus is God and saviour. Many, many other beliefs are different. From how important the OT is, to how your supposed to live your life, to the political institution of the Church, to euthanasia, to homosexuality and all the rest in between...

You forgot this ...
That there are churches want to ignore some of the clearest scripture in the Bible for their own convenience and justify wrong as right is no surprise, its been going on since at least the first century. Paul warned to be aware of wolves in sheep's clothing..who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. In from Paul's writing we get that expression on this very kind of issue.
That's part of my problem. If even after 50 years, they couldn't get it right? How can it be right now ?
 
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[sniped most of the stuff not on-topic]
Saying that being homosexual is wrong is the same thing as saying that being black, white, yellow or blue is wrong. It's not an act like above. It's just how someone is.
Likewise some people are pre-disposed towards paedophilia, theft or murder, so by saying those those things are wrong are you saying we're actually being unfairly discriminatory?

I can certainly see a distinction between a loving relationship between two adult men and the above crimes, but I just wanted to make the point that we (as a civilised society) never have the viewpoint that something can be OK simply because it's the way someone is. All we can ever do is try and tailor our 'correction' according to the reasons.
 
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Pladio, there's actually more involved in getting to Heaven, than just 'believing in Jesus' despite what the con men known as televangelists tell you. There's this little thing called repentance which they tend to leave out of their message. Salvation is really more of a process than an event; the belief part is just the beginning!!
 
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Likewise some people are pre-disposed towards paedophilia, theft or murder, so by saying those those things are wrong are you saying we're actually being unfairly discriminatory?

I can certainly see a distinction between a loving relationship between two adult men and the above crimes, but I just wanted to make the point that we (as a civilised society) never have the viewpoint that something can be OK simply because it's the way someone is. All we can ever do is try and tailor our 'correction' according to the reasons.

I've never seen anything credible suggesting people are pre-disposed to theft or murder. AND the major difference between pedophilia and homosexuality is that pedophilia hurts people while homosexuality does NOT.

So you're argument doesn't stand.
 
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Pladio, there's actually more involved in getting to Heaven, than just 'believing in Jesus' despite what the con men known as televangelists tell you. There's this little thing called repentance which they tend to leave out of their message. Salvation is really more of a process than an event; the belief part is just the beginning!!

Maybe, but it still allows for murderers to go to heaven if they actually regret doing what they did while even someone who has saved lives will go to hell if he doesn't believe in Jesus.

My question remains ... How can you believe in something that doesn't even consider someone's goodness if that person is really good ? Even Jesus preached about being good so many times. His acts were acts of kindness and charity, but while others might do it, they won't go to heaven ? How is that even remotely possible ?
 
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What is the basis for saying homosexuality doesn't hurt people? I would think there is plenty of potential for hurt, from the emotional reaction of parents, to AIDS. Heck, there's often plenty of 'hurt' in heterosexual relationships!!
 
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AIDS can happen in heterosexual relations just as well, if protection is used, there are no worries. Second, the hurt is because of the nature of the people not because of the act. Pedophilia traumatizes children. Someone being a pedophile but not acting on it doesn't actually hurt. The reverse is true for homosexuality. Being homosexual hurts the parents, but the act doesn't hurt anyone.

Since we agreed that you cannot change the way you are, the difference between pedophilia and homosexuality is clear and vast.
 
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Pladio, the difficulty you face is in seening things from a human rather than a divine perspective. The Bible says that human righteousness is as filthy rags before the 'goodness' that is God. Therefore, you need to get rid of those rags, clean yourself up and put on new clothes. Jesus takes the old, gives you a shower and offers a new clothing which allows you into the presence of God. My analogy isn't great, but hopefully you get the idea behind it. Basically, you can NEVER get into Heaven because of anything YOU have done, only on the basis of what Jesus has done. All you have to do is appropriate that; it's a FREE gift. Forget 'church' rules, most are only there to help you live a better life (supposedly, but that's a different issue), the Christian message is really quite simple. Pity so many well meaning people have messed it up. :)
 
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I haven't agreed that you can't change the way you are!!!!!!!! I BELIEVE you can.
 
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Pladio, the difficulty you face is in seening things from a human rather than a divine perspective. The Bible says that human righteousness is as filthy rags before the 'goodness' that is God. Therefore, you need to get rid of those rags, clean yourself up and put on new clothes. Jesus takes the old, gives you a shower and offers a new clothing which allows you into the presence of God. My analogy isn't great, but hopefully you get the idea behind it. Basically, you can NEVER get into Heaven because of anything YOU have done, only on the basis of what Jesus has done. All you have to do is appropriate that; it's a FREE gift. Forget 'church' rules, most are only there to help you live a better life (supposedly, but that's a different issue), the Christian message is really quite simple. Pity so many well meaning people have messed it up. :)

Except this is the leap of faith being talked about in the other thread.
It's very easy for someone who's been taught a certain way to believe that thing is true. Changing someone's mind who's been taught to believe something is close to impossible. However it's even harder to believe something when you haven't ever believed it.

So, what's the simple thing ?
 
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I've met people who have, but I have no concrete evidence which is why it's a belief. I think it's mental, rather than anything else, but it's not an area I can speak in depth about.
 
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I've met people who have, but I have no concrete evidence which is why it's a belief. I think it's mental, rather than anything else, but it's not an area I can speak in depth about.

It's more like a continuum. Some people are very close to the heterosexual end; others are very close to the homosexual end. Everybody else is somewhere between the two, and most people end up suppressing one or the other (usually the homosexual one). I'm pretty certain that the people who "become straight" or "become gay" simply suppress one side of their sexuality after having first expressed it. Others who never have a conscious heterosexual or homosexual thought might still have the tendencies, but have effectively suppressed them from the get-go.

Not that there's anything wrong with any of that either.
 
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I don't understand how people who weren't taught to believe it then come to believe it.

I think that from my posts you could have gathered I was Jewish, or I might have hid it well enough

Actually didn't pick up on that, but then my wife constantly tells me I'm not that observant!

As for your first statement, well, I guess the best way to put it is something just clicks. It might be an event, or it might just be a gradual understanding, but yes, it does make it easier (in some regards) if that is what you are taught from day 1!

It still isn't the same thing as homosexuality.

Fundamentally it is. It is a desire that, at least according to the Bible, goes against God's laws.

1. Homosexuality is an illness

If so, then there has to be some kind of cure. Having a pastor, priest, imam, rabbi, psychiatrist talk to the person should with time help the person off their desire to have sex.

Maybe. Self-control, regardless of the desire can be achieved, though many physical and mental ways.

2. Homosexuality is a state of being

You either are homosexual or you're not. There's no cure. It's not an illness so no cure is needed. Premarital sex isn't allowed, but then why can't homosexuals just marry and then have sex. The desire is to have sex with someone of the same sex, the act is having sex. Not acting on it at all is nothing more but torture.

I understand that this would be difficult. However, is it any more difficult than a person that just never finds the right person to marry, and abstains from sex? As for the why part of your question, because that is the law as God has laid it down, at least according to the Bible.

3. Homosexuality is just a physiological aspect and is how you're built. (tied in to 2, but still a little bit different)

Saying that being homosexual is wrong is the same thing as saying that being black, white, yellow or blue is wrong. It's not an act like above. It's just how someone is.

That's why I think it is imparitive to separate the desire from the act.

A bit later they didn't though.

Not to get into a compartive religion discussion, but there is virtually no evidence of 'conversion by the sword' until after the rise of Islam and the introduction of the concept by the continual push of the Islamic armies. Not saying it justifies it, but it was more a reaction to a changing world (the wrong one IMO) than a staple of the religion.

Shias and Sunnis do not get along, but it's been worked on more as an ethnicity now than just religion. I don't think that changing from one sect to the other is so easy as converting from let's say Southern Baptism to Orthodoxy. It has become ethnic.
Well, becoming Orthodox isn't easy! But that is another discussion. Ethnicity has had a lot to do with Christian splits as well.

They're not trying to convert each other, they're killing each other.

Personally, I'd rather be converted than killed I think! :D

What period are you talking about for the Jews ?

Pre-Roman to Roman occupation times particularly. Again, it probably is more political than religious, but the nation of Israel and it's Kings more than once rounded up and executed religious 'deviants.' And during the first century, the Jewish authorities were not particularly hesitatant about rounding up Christians, even the early ones that still thought of themselves as Jews.

Which could make it even less authentic...

There has been a lot of research into oral traditions and amazingly, it's shown that people that belong to these traditions have a learned ability to memorize and recite very long works accurately and pass them down generation to generation. That doesn't prove that the Gospel's are perfect copies, but it allows it to be at least plausible.

But why not leave all of them in ? This makes these 4 Gospels, the Gospels of Truth while the others get a lower status. The other apostles' writing is not as good.

I think we're going a bit in circles here. The four that were chosen were chosen because the pwowers that be felt they were the most accurate representations of Christ and His message. Why would you include something if you didn't think it was accurate or if it could not be authenticated?

What do you mean about the Gnostic sects?

Gnostics sects are those that focused more on the self-enlightment teachings of Christ than what we now call the 'traditional' or Orthodox teachings. One reason there are so many Gospels is that after the ascention, the Apostles spread throughout the known world to spread the word of Christ. Their teachings became the Gospels. So a Church where Mathew went was using what is the Gospel of Mathew and a Church where Philip went was using what became the Gospel of Philip, etc. We'd probably be a lot better off if they'd all got together, hashed out a single Gospel, then split up. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. Probably more because of the tenuous political situation in the Holy Lands. So we are left with several different versions of many of the same events. Some with condradict each other. As a point of reference, there are several Old Testament books that were left out as well. Heck, there is even more than one version of Genisis, yet the Jews don't include both versions in the Torah either.

Of course the classical question is the one about how the most evil person in the world who has murdered and committed acts of atrocity in his life. At some point he talks to a priest, pastor, reverend or the pope himself and comes to realize his mistakes. He also starts believing in Jesus. That person will go to heaven ?

If he TRULY believes and repents? Yes. The question is does he truly? It's not as easy as sin your whole life, then on your death bed repent and get a free pass. God isn't going to be fooled by false repentence.

While someone who has done only the best for his family, for his friends and has even shown love to his neighbour and strangers. He only did acts of charity and kindness in his life. The only thing is that he doesn't believe in Jesus and he hasn't spoken to a pastor,priest, reverend or the pope. He will go to hell ?

Another question is, what about all the people who have not heard about Jesus, do they automatically get banished to hell ? Or do they get the option when they die ?
Since Christianity only started expanding in the West at first, did all those people in the East or in Africa, or in the New World go to hell ?

That's one of the questions I struggle with, and hence, I do believe in a 'last chance' so to speak between death and judgment. A bit of a cop out, I know, but it is how I reconcile a loving God with a strict God.

The only core belief I can see that is really the same is the fact that Jesus is God and saviour. Many, many other beliefs are different. From how important the OT is, to how your supposed to live your life, to the political institution of the Church, to euthanasia, to homosexuality and all the rest in between...

You forgot this ...


That there are churches want to ignore some of the clearest scripture in the Bible for their own convenience and justify wrong as right is no surprise, its been going on since at least the first century. Paul warned to be aware of wolves in sheep's clothing..who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. In from Paul's writing we get that expression on this very kind of issue.

That's part of my problem. If even after 50 years, they couldn't get it right? How can it be right now ?

It's not suprising, even if it occurred in the first century. People have always tried to mold religion to their own ends. I see no reason why a decietful person would not try to do it with a new religion as well.
 
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I've never seen anything credible suggesting people are pre-disposed to theft or murder. AND the major difference between pedophilia and homosexuality is that pedophilia hurts people while homosexuality does NOT.

There's a whole science about people being pre-disposed towards theft, murder and others.

And not to defend pedophiles, but the ancient greeks did it for hundreds of years. It was considered normal.

Regardless, to get to your message about 'hurting'. Does it hurt anyone if I have pre-marital sex? What if my wife and I decide to have an 'open' marriage? Neither of those things hurt anyone, yet I don't see too many Christians (or any other religion) arguing that they are ok.
 
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I've never seen anything credible suggesting people are pre-disposed to theft or murder.
Visit a prison some time. People who routinely commit crime think there's nothing wrong with it, even if repeatedly brought to justice, it's just who they are. Whether that's nature or nuture we don't really know. Same with homosexuality.

AND the major difference between pedophilia and homosexuality is that pedophilia hurts people while homosexuality does NOT.
Ah so actually it's got nothing to do with "just how someone is.", you're now using a different criteria to justify your viewpoint. Which is fine, and all I was trying to point out in the first place.
 
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Visit a prison some time. People who routinely commit crime think there's nothing wrong with it, even if repeatedly brought to justice, it's just who they are. Whether that's nature or nuture we don't really know. Same with homosexuality.

Ah so actually it's got nothing to do with "just how someone is.", you're now using a different criteria to justify your viewpoint. Which is fine, and all I was trying to point out in the first place.

First of, it's not the way those murderers are. They were either raised in a certain way or witnessed something that makes them not care anymore.

And about changing criteria, things can have more than one factor or criteria... I can add five thousand criterias if I want, it doesn't change the first one.
 
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