Turn-Based Combat: A Eulogy @ The Final Dungeon

The Final Dungeon has a piece titled Turn-Based Combat in Western RPGs - A Eulogy. Here's a snip:

We could argue endlessly about how to define the RPG genre, but in my opinion, one of its key identifying characteristics is the separation between player skill and character skill. If my desert ranger in Wasteland is an awesome marksman, then he is likely to hit his target, regardless of my mouse and keyboard skills. In an action RPG, though, this distinction is minimized. My Infiltrator in Mass Effect 2 may have great stats, and those stats will definitely help his aim. But no matter how high his level, he will always be a better shot if controlled by a veteran FPS gamer.
Combat in Mass Effect 2

Don’t misunderstand. I enjoy pausable combat and real-time combat. Some of my absolute favorite RPGs, such as Dungeon Master, Ultima Underworld 1 and 2, and The ElderScrolls series, demonstrate how fun real-time combat can be. All I’m saying is that I like turn-based combat, too, and I miss it. One play-through of EA3D’s excellent (and free) browser-based RPG Dragon Age: Journeys reminded me how much I miss this game mechanic.

Click to expand...

More information.

I have the same opinion as the article.I will miss turn based combat but its a fact it will never be mainstream again.

I think "player skill vs. character skill" is a core element.

In action-RPGs nearly *everything* is player skill. [cynism]Maybe this is the reason why they usually NEVER have sicial skills implemented ? [/cynism]

Because player skill with the mouse is relatively easy to achieve; but player skill with the mouth much less, imho. I guess that's why E-Sports games don't have any in-game social skills implemented, either. But ... - I guess they'd ignore them anyway, it's sports, at least, with no talking allowed.

And ... social skills seem hard to be implemented, too. I think this is a fundamental lack of research back when "RPGs" were rather war-games.


Back to the topic : I agree very much with this article. But - as could be witnessed at the Games Com this year and last year : We live in the "Age Of Action". Somehow "the industry" believes that action is everything.

Actually, I prefer my own skill to be as large - if not a larger factor in determining the outcome of battle, or whatever else.

That's because I prefer to immerse myself in a role to the extent that I *become* the character, rather than play someone who definitely isn't me.

Few games allow that, and few games understand how to attain that balance of building a character with skills/powers, whilst retaining player-skill as the key.

It's a question of the underlying rule-set.

I think that in a game, a given ule.set should be followed.

One could also invent RPGs without any dedicated rule-sets, too.

Totally agree. To me RPG can not be achieved, no matter how many questions they ask you so they show you different cutscenes, if the character skills don't determine, fully or at least majorly, the outcome of the actions.
Another important aspect of turn based RPGs is that you can have many more options available at any given time. Action games usually just let you have like 4 or 5 actions (mapped to the 4 or 5 buttons in the controller). I like having lots of options, makes tactical combat much more satisfying.

Turn Based combat is my favorite mechanic, always has been, since the original Gold Box Pool of Radiance. I enjoy thinking through the strategy not clicking as fast as I can.

We've had a few great TB lately, the fantastic King's Bounty series obviously, but when it comes to the market someone with limited brain power decided turn based games don't sell and it's more profitable to produce another FPS shooter clone than a unique game. *sarcasm* Like that Civ game released last week, I bet no one's purchased that.

Indie's for the most part are the turn based fan's salvation. Unfortunately, as much I love TB and as much as I want to support indie's, none of them have captured my attention. Vogel's stuff is just too dated and I briefly tried the demo for Eschalon but it didn't pull me in ( I keep meaning to give the another try ). But I have high hopes for AoD, Dead State and our very own Tactica.

I'm also a fan of turn-based. But frankly, too many turn-based games have stayed stuck in the past, and haven't evolved in their own right.

I like turn based in a lot of settings, but for some reason I never really enjoyed it in RPGs. The reason is probably that it's too slow - in games where I enjoy it, I can usually skip it when my army/character is significantly more powerful than the enemy (quick combat in Age of Wonders, Heroes of Might and Magic, etc).

In FO1 and 2, for example, I don't enjoy it. Killing rats in slow motion? No thanks.

It's the main reason why I play the majority of Arcanum in real time - I only enter turn based if a fight is actually challenging enough to require it. Most of the time I just burn through the combat to get to the good part (exploration, characters, quests, and so on).

My point is: I enjoy TB as long as the fight is somewhat challenging and actually requires TB.

TOEE was a step in the right direction. Multiple enemies moving at the same time was such a simple yet vital improvement. In other games I've been bored to tears waiting for the AI to get through the dozen or so enemies before it's my turn again.

I'm not that sad about AAA TB rpgs disappearing. I have enough old games to keep me busy if I ever get a TB itch and there really are a lot of indies that keep showing up out of nowhere. I expect that number to continue to grow with time. Just 10 years ago you had about 1 indie guy doing truly old school type of RPGs. I'm talking, of course, about Jeff Vogel and his Exile/Nethergate/Avernum/Geneforge series. Now you have indies that, in some ways, improve upon what Jeff started. I fully expect to see more indie companies popping up in the future.

Even in the hayday of "old school TB rpgs" we really didn't get that many rpgs at one time. Action games have always been more in demand on either the PC/Commodore 64 and consoles (yes, we had consoles back then too ) If you switch X-Box360 with Atari and PS3 with Intellivision then you still have basically the same type of games (action) that were more popular. Extremely basic, but still more in demand. Devs could experiment a little more, but they still mostly experimented with what would sell.

So all in all nothing really has changed other than I don't expect to see a AAA TB rpg anymore. Which is fine by me. Indies can take more chances and cater more towards their chosen niche.

My Character in Fallout 2 may have great stats, and those stats will definitely help his aim. But no matter how high his level, he will always be a better shot if controlled by a veteran strategy gamer.

skavenhorde said:

TOEE was a step in the right direction. Multiple enemies moving at the same time was such a simple yet vital improvement. In other games I've been bored to tears waiting for the AI to get through the dozen or so enemies before it's my turn again.

Click to expand...

ToEE. Sigh. The gaming system was so close to being really great but the game (as in the scenario/story) was so far from being even good. If they had chosen a better scenario just think how things might have turned out? Perhaps it could have become a series.

I forget that other D&D game that had turned based combat (it was the one that claimed to be the first complete D&D 3ed game) but I literally fell asleep waiting for the enemy to finish their turn one time.

I have to agree BillSeurer. I just couldn't enjoy it, despite the great mechanics.

That would be Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor. There is a speed up utility mod that gets rid of all that waiting.

Count me in the turn-based camp as well. I've been playing old turn-based strategy games rather than the RT and RTWP RPGs that are sitting on my shelf…

It's funny, though, that I will play a good FPS right away…

pure awesomeness :

*Hero hits with 10pts of strength
(dice roll +dex +weapong dmg -rat armor -rat resistence ..........)
*Rat gets 1 point of damage

[start orgasm here]

Root canal operations : still better than turn based RPGs

Right now I'm re-replaying Gladius (only game ever I've played more than twice, and there are very very few games I've played more than once). It really is the best tactical RPG game I've played. Sadly, Lucasarts decided not to make a well deserved sequel.
It has it all: many different units, rock-paper-scissors-X system with height, elemental attacks and resitances, different weapon types with more damage, accuracy or range and abilities. Many different spells, summoning, positioning, different party compositions (each arena battle presents different scenarios and opponents, so you don't always use the same units). If you have an old Xbox or PS2 or Gamecube, give it a try. It's even cheap to find, I just bought a PS2 version pre-owned at Gamestop for like $6. (if you do try it, I suggest turning off the meters as soon as you finish the tutorial, to make it a pure tactical game)

even more awesome:

click on rat
rat squeeks

repeat until squeeks stop

perfect for braindead zombies!

Thrasher said:

even more awesome:

click on rat
rat squeeks

repeat until squeeks stop

perfect for braindead zombies!

Click to expand...

Doesn't work with Mother Ratzinski

For a one character game I sometimes wounder why it is turn-based. IMHO the biggest strength of turn-based is that the player can control a party of characters. Without having to write a script, this allows to make much more challenging battles.

I don't like real-time with pause either..... the biggest problem here is you give commands, but after you give the command and un-pause chaos rules again.....

I find RTwP barely acceptable, but still too wonky and imprecise for my tastes.