RPGWatch Feature: The Witcher Review

I think it's fairly important that a review is dogmatic to some degree. If you don't agree with PJ on this review it is simply a disagreement of opinion. Thus, PJ may have different criteria to yourself upon which he enjoys a gaming experience. You know this now and can make a judgment on sequential reviews/critiques.

True, but keep in mind that I was asked by GbG (if I remember right) to back up my initial argument. I never demanded that PJ has to adjust his style of reviewing to my taste, after all I have the possibility not to read his reviews... or as you say to keep in mind that he has a different style when reading sequential reviews.
I was merely trying to explain why I think that this review is not very objective... something that even PJ has admitted himself is true.

But to tell the truth I also hoped and still hope, that every feedback is welcome on these boards, and not just the flattering one...
 
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Of course it is, ISS. From what I've seen, this kind of contentious discourse is what Prime J thrives on :) But discussion can't flourish if people don't speak the truth, and universal agreement is boring as hell. I've always enjoyed the debate and even the acrimony that sometimes comes up because of the conflict in people's perspectives. It's a lot more interesting and in the end it's a large part of what brings people to forums; to explore ideas and maybe even learn something from someone else's POV. :)
 
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What if a book has numerous typos, a bad translation, or is written in a style that you don't like?

You can get the Spirit of a book.

You know, the problem with comparisons is that in one way or another they are always wrong. We're not talking about a book here, we're talking about a video game. It's great if you can completely separate content from form (although I doubt you can), but I think it's safe to say that for most gamers that's just not the case.

Okay, with that you're saying that most gamers are those who want to get flashy, technically well-made games that are great for ... for what ?

For their gaming experience ?

With saying this, you tell us that you believe that most gamers want the same as you want - a technically perfect game, if possible, that delivers the best story that is there in the best possible way.

With what you write, you act no more different than txa1265 saying:

Then how would you explain that the overwhelming majority of folks reading reviews have already bought the game in question ... and are 'checking if they got it right'?

Only that you are directing it into the opposite way.


The point I see is this: Which type of gamer (read: potential buyer) are we talking about ?

You are talking about a different type of gamer than Arhu does; and you both believe in your points of view.

I mainly see two groups of gamers: The ones who generate the mass of sales, and the ones which can easily be forgotten and levt alone, cynically said, the probably more mature ones, the ones who are NOT easily influenced by reviews and advertisements and maybe even hype.

There is the group of the "graphics whores" as well, and those who want story instead of flashy graphics.

The point is, however, that most revieweing sirtes are directed towards those gamers who generate the mass sales. Prime Junta's "review" was an oddity in that respect. No simnple gamer would've read it - especially not if he or she wanted to check out how good The Witcher looks or plays.

PJ's review was entirely different from that. It was NOT intended to give any hints on how a graphics whore will be satisfied with The Witcher but instead on how a "story whore" would be satisfied with it.


As a result, we must always keep in mind and realize wo we are adressing with our reviews and comments.

Which group of gamers to we want to appeal at ?
 
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But to tell the truth I also hoped and still hope, that every feedback is welcome on these boards, and not just the flattering one...

And exactly what makes you feel it isn't? The fact that I'm defending my review and the choices I made writing it, instead of just saying "thank you for your feedback, we at RPGWatch value it greatly?"
 
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We want a diversity of opinion -- and an environment where strident debate of that opinion can occur without reducing to abuse. At the centre of RPGWatch is discussion of this genre we all share an interest in, so debate is a critical part of our function. I don't know a perfect formula to engender that perfect environment but we try to find a balance.

I hear what you are saying about this review and I heartily welcome the discussion. That said, I disagree. I don' know of any research that proves why people read reviews but my gut instinct is most (but obviously not all) our readers are interested in the discussion and sharing their opinion - especially when we release an article well after release. Having written what I believe was the most comprehensive pre-release hands-on preview of The Witcher but not being able to get a full review out immediately, I was happy to take a different approach. I knew PJ's review would be controversial -- that's an opportunity for good discussion and goes to the heart of our existence. In that sense, your posts here are very much what I wanted (to be honest, I thought there would be a lot more argument).

I also think we released an entertaining article that informed in a different way to everything else out there, and for me, that's damn good content for a site our size.

As to reviews in general, I would take a different approach in different circumstances. I think our articles for indies are closer to what you want (read one of my Spiderweb reviews), as are reviews closer to release, because they fulfill more of a buyer's guide function. But when a game garners huge coverage across the 'net and we can't get an article out until later, I'm very much in favour of taking a more creative approach.
 
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You can get the Spirit of a book.

You might be able do so... I, for my part, find it very hard to get the spirit of a book if it has...let's say a bad translation. But as I said before, such comparisons are always wrong in one way or another.

You know, the problem with comparisons is that in one way or another they are always wrong. We're not talking about a book here, we're talking about a video game. It's great if you can completely separate content from form (although I doubt you can), but I think it's safe to say that for most gamers that's just not the case.
Okay, with that you're saying that most gamers are those who want to get flashy, technically well-made games that are great for ... for what ?
Nope, what I'm saying is that most gamers cannot completely seperate content from form. Everything else is a rather liberal interpretation on your part (no offense).

With saying this, you tell us that you believe that most gamers want the same as you want - a technically perfect game, if possible, that delivers the best story that is there in the best possible way.
No, that's not what I'm saying. And having read through my posts again I could not find one sentence that even implies something like that or could be misinterpreted is such a way. I think I made pretty clear that from my point of view personal opinion in reviews should be limited to an absolute minimum... it should be pretty obvious that this includes my own opinion as well. I don't know what exactly other gamers want, and that's exactly why I think that my personal opinion (as well as the opinion of other people) is of hardly any use to them. There is no "best story in the best possible way" since such a statement is entirely based on personal opinion. I might think that a game has a great story which is presented in a great way, but another person might think quite differently.
As I said before, from my point of view the ideal review enables the reader to decide for himself if he might or might not like a game. Reviews that are entirely based on opinion only enable those readers to take a decision who share the taste of the reviewer.
What I'm saying is that I believe that the technical aspects of a game play a role for a lot of gamers. The fact that games with for example powerful engines, great graphics, or a particular kind of gameplay, let's say real time combat, sell better than games with weak engines, bad or old graphics, or turn based combat seem at least to hint in that direction. And before you begin to interpret my statements again: I'm not saying that technical aspects are the only criteria that a lot of gamers base their decision on (if they buy a game or not).

And exactly what makes you feel it isn't? The fact that I'm defending my review and the choices I made writing it, instead of just saying "thank you for your feedback, we at RPGWatch value it greatly?"
What exactly makes you feel, that I feel it isn't? I simply don't know if you value every kind of feedback or not... that's why I used the words "I hope". Meanwhile several people assured me that it is which I think is great. The fact that you defend your review is pretty natural... and I think it's a good thing that you do, because like the staff of RPGwatch , I also value feedback of all sorts...
 
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I think I made pretty clear that from my point of view personal opinion in reviews should be limited to an absolute minimum... it should be pretty obvious that this includes my own opinion as well.

And that is the crux of the disagreement. You feel that games are like, say, coffee grinders -- appliances designed to fulfill a specific, well-defined function. Something like that can be reviewed objectively: you can measure the uniformity of the grind, the range of adjustment, the noise, the power consumption, the durability, the capacity, the speed, and then compare it against other coffee grinders on the market, taking into consideration the price. Even so, if you comment on the design and ergonomics, you will enter into subjective territory -- unless you have the luxury of doing a proper, scientific usability test with a statistically significant number of test users.

I, however, feel that games are more like books or movies than coffee grinders. And whatever you may say, there is no way to write an objective critique of a book that isn't so trivial as to be comical. The only things you can objectively judge are the externals -- the quality of the binding, printing, and paper, the number of typos and other technical hitches, the number of pages, the size of the print, and so on. You cannot objectively measure how enjoyable, readable, exciting, moving, informative, or edifying it is.

What you can -- and, in my very strongly-held opinion, should -- do is describe your subjective experience of the book, and explain why you experienced it that way, compared to the other books, comics, movies, and plays that serve as its background. That is not objective; it is overtly subjective.

However, and this IMO is the alpha and the omega of it, it is also (1) honest, and (2) provides enough information about your preferences and background that your reader can make their own, informed judgment about what to make of your review, and by extension, of the book being reviewed.

When you ask for an "objective" game review, you're effectively asking that we excise everything that *requires* subjective judgment to assess, and restrict ourselves to those aspects of the game that can be measured in anything approaching "objective" terms: load times, bug counts, typos, instances of jumpy dialog, instances of reused character models, and what not. In other words, to excise *what the game is about.*

Luckily for you, this is (more or less) what mainstream game reviewers do -- and they do it very well (some of them at least). That, ISS, is why I wanted to do something different: to write about everything that gets sacrificed on the altar of "objectivity" in games journalism.
 
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When you ask for an "objective" game review, you're effectively asking that we excise everything that *requires* subjective judgment to assess, and restrict ourselves to those aspects of the game that can be measured in anything approaching "objective" terms: load times, bug counts, typos, instances of jumpy dialog, instances of reused character models, and what not. In other words, to excise *what the game is about.*
I completely agree with you - and you know what? For many games this actually works fairly well. ***HOWEVER*** for games like The Witcher - and incidentally many DS/Wii games like Cooking Mama - it breaks badly. Reviews for games like that desperately need to spend a lot of time establishing context rather than detailing use of shaders and counting mis-translated phrases.
 
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Reviews for games like that desperately need to spend a lot of time establishing context rather than detailing use of shaders and counting mis-translated phrases.

Other examples:

Creatures, Spore ...


And that is the crux of the disagreement. You feel that games are like, say, coffee grinders -- appliances designed to fulfill a specific, well-defined function.

[...]

I, however, feel that games are more like books or movies than coffee grinders.


Here we come to the final question:

What is a game anyway ?

Can it be Art ?

There are cheap-looking board games out there - and even luxury edition which are a great look for the eyes (and the feel, of course, as well ! Don't underestimate the haptic influence there ! ) - but playable are both.
(And of course there's the big mass between both poles.)

You can make cheap-looking games anyway - playable is it - because the overall look doesn't touch the "story" of the game at all.

But - why do people do these rare luxury versions of board games ? Because there is something more in it than just "story".

But - luxury versions of board games are rare and expensive; in video gaming, luxury editions have become the ule (being pushed forwards as such by publushers who believe that games should look NOTHING but extremely good !)
 
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I quoted him in another context here today, but since you brought up Art: I just came across Neil Gaiman's definition, which is "anything you can use to stun a burglar, at least in hardcover."

If it's good enough for the man behind Sandman, it's good enough for me. :p
 
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It's rare that I totally agree with something PJ says, but his take on writing a review is spot on!!
 
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Personally, I do believe that games should be reviewed with artistic merit in mind. Films and music certainly are so why not games? If I rate a game it is certainly done so with my own values in mind, but I can also see merit in objectivity. Games are a mixture of art and science when they are at their best, thus, both values should be observed. It's a matter of opinion which you value more.
 
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witcher - english translation

I am a polish player and I feel very sorry for you about the translation.
Polish original has really outstanding dialogues, using lots of polish specific language, which made me a few times roll on the floor laughing. Really there are no words to describe how great they were done. I personally think that the game deserves better, fully professional translation, which could be made only by native english speaker cooperating with polish translator (to understand culture and language specific issues) and hopefully, some day such a translation will be completed. Believe me half of the game is lost in translation.
BTW there is 1.2 patch available which makes loading times not a problem anymore.
 
More Prime Junta Reviews, please!

Prime Junta really GETS The Witcher and understands what's so special about it. I enjoyed and agreed with (his? her? their) thoughtful review. Now I want to see what OTHER games Prime Junta likes and what they think about them.

More, please!
 
I have playing this one for quite a bit.
It had some very nice features, but after chapter 3 I lost interest.
I liked how my choices had a true impact on the world around me, and sometimes there were consuquences that I really couldn't have had predicted myself.
Yet later on the pacing and coherence of the story were beginning to lack, and the game began to drag a little in my opinion.
 
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