Avadon - Released on iPad

Marketing lesson 1:

attachment.php


Product 1: Melitta Kaffee Filter Gr. 4 = 2€
Product 2: Swirl Brigitta Kaffe Filter Gr. 4 = 1€

100% price difference for the same product in the same market!

You think it is a different manufacturer ? wrong:

Melitta
Marienstr. 88
32425 Minden
http://www.melitta.de

Swirl
Marienstr. 88
info@melitta.de
32425 Minden
http://www.swirl.de

Melitta Kaffee Filter are often sold in high price shops, Brigitta Kaffe Filter in low price shops, you can find them side by side in big supermarkets.
 

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Was that for my benefit HiddenX? If so please read one of my recent posts. Thank you.

Maybe you should have told Vogel about this coffee filter thing a few years ago before he shot his mouth off and now he's trying to act like he never said anything before.
 
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Yeah - and he have to rename the low-price version to "Ividon", too. ;)
 
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Yeah - and he have to rename the low-price version to "Ividon", too. ;)

Ok, now that is funny. :D

The problem he's having is that he can't hide the same quality game under a different name. If he could do that then no one would be the wiser and everyone would be happy in their ignorance :p
 
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Ok, now that is funny. :D


The problem he's having is that he can't hide the same quality game under a different name. If he could do that then no one would be the wiser and everyone would be happy in their ignorance :p
The problem is that the majority of the users - in any market, not only games - has only limited knowledge of economics. If not even none at all.
No offense, but you're also showing signs of this, as your expression "10 dollar nonsense" signals. ;) There is no nonsense. Just the opposite, it makes perfect sense from Jeff's point of view. The pricing was a calculated business decision with good reasons behind it.
If some people think he owes them a lower price on PC & Mac now, or even some compensation in one form or the other ... sorry guys that's just not how it works.

Maybe Jeff will learn to sell the different prices better for his next game, but apart from that the complaints will have no influence.


I already knew the articles you've linked to, btw. Ca. 5 articles in the last 2 years in a drastically changing market environment with huge pressure for lower prices doesn't impress me at all.
Generally he doesn't talk about his pricing.
 
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The problem is that the majority of the users - in any market, not only games - has only limited knowledge of economics. If not even none at all.

What? No, you are completely wrong! Judging from the posts on this forum along it's perfectly obvious that everyone is an expert.
 
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I already knew the articles you've linked to, btw. Ca. 5 articles in the last 2 years in a drastically changing market environment with huge pressure for lower prices doesn't impress me at all.
Generally he doesn't talk about his pricing.

Stop talking "to me" about the 10 dollar "discussion". I was being flippant when I said nonsense because this whole discussion is nonsense. I do not care anymore. If it works then fine and he is able to stay in business to make better games then great. If other RPG indie devs can follow his example so they can stay in business to make more RPGs then even better. I have said this many times now and this will be the last time. Please, for the love of all that is holy don't talk to me about the 10 dollar price anymore. Dartagnan would probably more than happy to discuss it with you.

Your comment about how he doesn't generally talk about pricing made my day. Thank you, Gorath, that has got to be one of the funniest things I've read today.

Bottom line is that he does "generally" talk about his pricing. You know it and I know it. Hell my cat knows it too.
 
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What? No, you are completely wrong! Judging from the posts on this forum along it's perfectly obvious that everyone is an expert.

No, obviously only the people who support Vogel's pricing philoshopy are experts.

Those with a problem are exclusively entitled-feeling whining haters, who don't know anything about economics whatsoever.
 
No, obviously only the people who support Vogel's pricing philoshopy are experts.

Those with a problem are exclusively entitled-feeling whining haters, who don't know anything about economics whatsoever.

I'm a graduate in Mathematics & Economics (Dipl.Wirt.-Math.) at the University of Dortmund, Germany. So I know a thing or two about business models, markets and sales strategies.

While at university I worked several years for a merchandise enhancement consulting company. I increased the sales of Granini juices and Freixenet sparkling wine in several markets.
 
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I do not care anymore.

For someone who doesn't care ... you behave like someone who does. From swearing up a storm at me, to responding to every single message in the thread about price.

As for pricing, on the one hand it is pretty clear that while he never wanted to talk about price or sales aside from saying he prices according to his needs to make some profit and sells enough to support his family and do what he loves. Yet due to constant pressure he has talked about it.

The differential thing is where it gets interesting. If you ask most multi-platform users you will find that their heads act differently with different platforms - whereas I would no way pay $10 for NOVA 2 (Halo clone) on the iPad (got it on sale for a few $), I readily paid $10 for the Mac version this weekend.

Similarly I wouldn't pay as much for an Android game as I would for the iPhone one as almost universally they are inferior in one way or other.

The value propositions are all messed up between platforms, but what we all have to ultimately do is decide if a given game meets our own personal value prop. If you have a PC but no Mac or iPad, why should you care about pricing on the Mac App Store ($5 less) or on the iTunes App Store? The PC game has its own inherent value - and the PC (or Mac full version) is unique in that you get a huge demo.
 
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I'm a graduate in Mathematics & Economics (Dipl.Wirt.-Math.) at the University of Dortmund, Germany. So I know a thing or two about business models, markets and sales strategies.

While at university I worked several years for a merchandise enhancement consulting company. I increased the sales of Granini juices and Freixenet sparkling wine in several markets.

Oh, and with this knowledge of yours - you know for a fact that 25$ for Avadon is the perfect price - and that there's no way it would sell better overall by setting it lower, right?

Anyone with any knowledge of economics should understand how fickle this market is, and how unpredictable it can be. There's no course you can take that can make you predict the dynamics of the modern gaming industry and its market.

Especially not now, where the AppStore market has demonstrated the power of impulse buys like never before.

I have no doubt Vogel would be shocked if he set Avadon at 10$ for the PC version.

But of course, since I have no formal economics education - I must be wrong.

In any case, I really have no problem with the PC price.

I have a problem with Vogel pretending he's powerless to throw a bone to his fans. That's dishonest and he's not being accountable.

I don't like that, but that's what it is.
 
For someone who doesn't care … you behave like someone who does. From swearing up a storm at me, to responding to every single message in the thread about price.

You were on another of your Apple tangents writing about as vulgar as anyone could get. So yea I asked you to calm the fuck down and would do so again.

Way to quote out of context there, Mike.

I do not care about the 10 dollar price discussion. Clear as a bell now?

I'm a bit peeved about his whole attitude towards it. So sue me.
 
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I have no doubt Vogel would be shocked if he set Avadon at 10$ for the PC version.

He could try that - with the assumption to sell at least 2.5x units in comparison to the units sold with 25$.

His normal (niche crpg) unit count: 4000
-> target units: 10000

If he sells under 10000 units he's lost, because he cannot go back to the high price. Jeff's risk -> so he has to decide.
 
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Oh, I think the sales would FAR surpass 2.5x copies.

That's the entire point of this theory.
 
AFAIR one of his games sells/sold on one of the big portals for small money. If that's true he already has sales numbers for such a price point.

2.5x isn't enough. You've got to factor in transaction costs and bigger costs for support.

And as Hx wrote, it's a oneway street. Going back to high prices is very difficult. Jeff's risk, Jeff's decision.
 
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Guys if we forget about numbers for a minute, I personally think that the root of the problem is that Vogel has been making a living by relying on the loyalty of a very specific group that is also, incidentally, loyal to the pc as a gaming platform because of the 'hardcore' games they can get on it, which is what he is expected to be offering (I'm presumptuously assuming that his customers that prefer macs are fewer and less loyal - feel free to correct me - but I'm also accepting many similarities between the two platforms compared to the iPad).

Therefore by offering such a price difference he is in danger of disappointing the core of his fanbase by making them feel they are less important or ever betrayed. And it really doesn't matter if that's justified or not, what should matter is if it happens or not and what the results will be, since he relies on having a closer relationship with his customers than any large faceless company does.

Essentially what I'm saying is that how many times more Avadon should sell to remain profitable isn't so important at this point. What is important is how many of the people who bough this game can he count on rushing to buy Avadon2 as soon as its out.

That's why I insist that he should have made something different for iPad - or maybe the same but 'less' in a more obvious way. Not merely to justify the price difference but to give his loyal customers a reason to claim that they are still getting the better deal.
 
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(I'm presumptuously assuming that his customers that prefer macs are fewer and less loyal - feel free to correct me - but I'm also accepting many similarities between the two platforms compared to the iPad).

I'm afraid you do need correcting. Jeff has previously said the PC/Mac split is around 50/50. The "less loyal" is hard to objectively assess but, having beta-tested for Spiderweb for years, I feel comfortable saying he has a very loyal, hardcore Mac following. The absolute experts on the Spidweb forums are, by and large, Mac users and he has a cadre of very dedicated Mac beta-testers. I'd say "more loyal", if that was a meaningful thing to say and I had to choose.
 
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I'm afraid you do need correcting. Jeff has previously said the PC/Mac split is around 50/50. The "less loyal" is hard to objectively assess but, having beta-tested for Spiderweb for years, I feel comfortable saying he has a very loyal, hardcore Mac following. The absolute experts on the Spidweb forums are, by and large, Mac users and he has a cadre of very dedicated Mac beta-testers. I'd say "more loyal", if that was a meaningful thing to say and I had to choose.

I definitely agree with Dhruin on this one - there are a few reasons why he tests and releases on the Mac first, and while I test on Mac & PC for him (and iPad now as well), on the Mac I am stunned at the speed and depth of testing that some folks are able to do.

Of course, no platform is perfect ... and sadly piracy runs rampant on all of them (I am sure there are more people who have stolen Avadon to play on a jailbroken iPad than have paid for it). But as much as PC RPG is an underserved market, the Mac RPG player gets only a fraction of PC ports, usually late and often using a performance degrading compatibility wrapper (Cider ... think WineSkin for Linux). So the people who only game on a Mac (and there are some) tend to be rather loyal. That said, most are like me - either own multiple computers, or use Bootcamp (dual boot) to access Windows for gaming.
 
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