Dragon Age - Best RPG Ever? @ GamerZines

Best RPG ever? Feels like he missing alots of games in that conclusion. A good game, but a game that don't connect with me. I still have problem with the interaction with my party. I really don't care for anyone except for my four choosen one i always use, unless i am forced a member. And a best RPG for ever really shouldn't have the feeling "Meah, i am stuck at this part of the game, well. Lets watch tv instead and see if i want to play later".

The talk talk talk bits really was to much in Kotor and it hasn't got less. Somehow i feel like i am playing a western version of a JRPG.

Despite my negative attitude i do feel this game is well worth 4/5 from me. And i know i will probably finish it some day. Its just not the greatest.

Hmm.... I wonder where Tan is?

JDR13 said:

I think this guy was drunk on Bioware kool-aid when he wrote this. Or maybe he's eaten too many Deep Mushrooms.

Is DA a great game? Yes, I don't think there's any doubt about that.

Greatest RPG of all time? No way…..

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Agreed. I can think of 8 off the top of my head that I have enjoyed more than DA. Games like Bloodlines, The Witcher (put on hold only once to wait for the patch that reduced the reload time), Fallout 1 & 2, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Realms of Arkania 2 & 3 and Betrayal at Krondor. These games had me hooked from start to finish, DA I've put on hold a few times to play something else. Even Knights of the Old Republic had me hooked from the very beginning. That doesn't mean I'm not enjoying it, I just wouldn't put it up there with the best game ever.

Corwin said:

Then go play a shooter!! Story and dialogue are essential to a proper RPG IMHO!!

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I do. But I also enjoy old school type RPGs. Story and dialogue are essential for a proper adventure game. And as someone else pointed out, if you took all the dialog out of these modern RPGs, there wouldn't be much left. That says how much actual game is in there beyond story dialog.

IMO, lack of imagination is why modern games rely so heavily on dialog. Sure the dialog itself can be well written and performed (like DA:O is).

To the contrary as someone implied, most game depth comes from game elements far beyond dialog. I'm not saying dialog is pointless, but DA:O takes it to an extreme.

Just as a well written story, dialog and voice acting can add to a game, so all the other elements. DA:O does a lot right in that regard too, but not all. I think what I'm wanting, a huge explorable world, is very cost prohibitive in the modern fully 3D rendered way. But that's what I want to see. DA:O feels like an RPG on rails to me, much like Fear2 or COD series feel.

I think maybe a lot of people now have either never played or have forgotten what the old school RPG's offered in that you weren't guided on rails through the game but had to go out and explore the world and find objectives in towns/cities like Ultima III or IV, etc.. Just finding out your objectives was part of the game. Now they hand it to you and that takes away a lot of the fun.

Hmm…. I wonder where Tan is?

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He's been busy playing dragon age......

He may actually love it, thus having the carpet totally pulled out from under him! Wouldnt that be hilarious??

That said, I miss him like an intestinal flu

I think it is a very good rpg but not the best ever. I don't play many rpgs although I am a fan because most of them don't appeal to me. I did play Oblivion but it is hard to compare them because they have totally different styles of play. Dragon Age is very appealing, but it doesn't quite live up to the Baldurs Gate series. Still I agree its the best thing Bioware has done ever since Baldurs Gate. I will have a better sense of things when I finish the game, but to put in the category of one of the best ever, I don't see it yet. A notch below that category, sure.

For me it definitly makes my favorite game list. The only other game in the last few years which got me still playing at 4 am was the witcher. I love the dao characters from alistair right upto shale, my favorite one is morrigan though. I will be playing through all of the origins, just finished the human noble one and started with the city elf. Whether its the best of all time is difficult to judge, its very hard to compare across time frames. Its defenitly one of the best since voice acting and 3d became essential.

(Only about halfway, just hit Orgrimmforge.)

It's decent. The combat has a chance of being great one day; with a little refinement and expansion on some sound, core ideas.

The last Bioware game that gave me any sense of real exploration and discovery (being equal to mathematically sound, strategically deep, tactical combat in importance), was the first Baldur's Gate.

That's… what? 5 games ago? 6? It's been a long time since Bioware did anything that didn't feel suspiciously like a carnival ride on rails.

The story is ok. Only because it's a story professionally told. But there has been little mystery, if any. It's the same tired, old archetypal story… honestly, I don't need to take part in events that involve me saving the world. Not again.

I dunno… yes, everything's been done; but Bioware have only ever told one story. They tell it very well, from a production quality point-of-view. But enough of this one, particular story-line, ok?

Bioware games feel like Wing Commander III.

Sometimes it feels like the entire crpg industry, stretching back nearly 30 years, has been purposely dancing around the periphery of the perfect computer role-playing game the whole time. Like they all secretly know how to make the game we all want, but they'd rather just mind!@#$ everybody instead.

Bioware has definitely figured out certain components of what might comprise the perfect crpg, from time to time. Again, the combat in Dragon Age has the potential to be great. They sort-of fixed the horrible cameras found in every game they've released in the last decade. It's really not all that bad.

Traps are well done, for maybe the first time ever. In fact, the spells, talent, and skill systems are a decent first effort. Obviously not terribly balanced or refined, however.

All the parts are greater than the whole, in Dragon Age. Everything is really well-done, but I feel like I'm attempting to pilot a plane under remote control.

I may move the levers and push the buttons, but I'm on a journey over which I really don't have any real, meaningful control.

-way, way too many cutscenes; and periods where I'm merely an observer.

-way, way too few opportunities to go off the beaten, rail-track-laden path.

Seriously, Bioware; build a world as vast and open as Azeroth, et al.

It is the height of laziness to build worlds the way you do. I would far rather be able to go anywhere I can see.. every mountaintop, every cave; than have full voice-overs.

I should be able to swim, and swim deeply, and possibly fly… but only after much struggle through layer after layer of mystery and trial.

Let us make our own stories.

Dyspaire said:

-way, way too many cutscenes; and periods where I'm merely an observer.

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Funny, that is one of the highlights for me. If the dialogue or voice acting were terrible then this would be an annoyance for me as well, but the acting is great and the story is deep.

It is the height of laziness to build worlds the way you do. I would far rather be able to go anywhere I can see.. every mountaintop, every cave; than have full voice-overs.

I should be able to swim, and swim deeply, and possibly fly… but only after much struggle through layer after layer of mystery and trial.

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There are very few games with an actual story to them that are any good. If that means it's more linear and you don't get to fly around the map like in Morrowind then please for the love of god make it linear. I say quality over quantity every time.

Let us make our own stories.

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If I wanted that then I'd play Oblivion or Morrowind or any of the other sandbox games out there. This is Bioware and one thing they have done well has been making a great game with a decent plot to it. Some of you may disagree, but I find the plot the best feature of this game and most of Bioware's games.

I used to grave for non-linear crpgs too that allowed me to make my "own story" but too often it lowered the quality of the content so much that I started to hate the whole idea. Nowadays for me "dynamic content" in crpg is more like a curseword than blessing.

Too bad that ultima series died. Those games were always about marrying non-linearity with good story. Looking at garriots later work I guess lord british got too excited with "people making their own stories" and forgot the real story alltogether.

Looking at garriots later work I guess lord british got too excited with "people making their own stories" and forgot the real story alltogether.

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Later work as in MMORPGS? I think it is normal that MMORPGS should not have stories... just a setting and it is up to the players to create the story....

GothicGothicness said:

Later work as in MMORPGS? I think it is normal that MMORPGS should not have stories… just a setting and it is up to the players to create the story….

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But thats the whole point. He stopped making single player crpgs because he got more interested of mmos that allowed "people to make their own stories". He got totally lost into that.

But I do have to say that there are som mmos that have stories i.e LOTRO or guild wars so it is possible to have it in mmos too allthough the quality might not be so good.

zakhal said:

Too bad that ultima series died. Those games were always about marrying non-linearity with good story. Looking at garriots later work I guess lord british got too excited with "people making their own stories" and forgot the real story alltogether.

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Couldn't agree more Zakhal, but unfortunately, more often than not, if the game is attempting to give you the freedom like in the Ultima series while trying to deliver the kind of gripping story that they had, then the game will end up something like Oblivion.

And don't get me started on how good ol' Lord British ditched the single-player genre just as fast as he could. After he started getting successful all he would talk about was "people making their own stories". Bah, I loved his earlier work, but later on he threw his fan base to the wolves in favor of MMOs. I guess it worked out for him, though. Too bad, it did. I wouldn't mind playing a single-player game made by him.

The game is good, no question about it. The three big problems for me are:

1. The standard save-the-world-from-evil story and become-the-greatest-hero-ever. It has been beaten to death since before humans could write.

Edit: I didn't finish the game yet. It might still get better.

2. Too many battles against very few types of enemies: Most are against their version of orcs and goblins, any intelligent humanoid and undead and spiders. It gets old pretty fast.

3. They created a brand new world from scratch. Which races did they use? City-living, versatile humans. Forest-dwelling, bow-wielding elves. Underground-living, smithing-and-gem loving dwarves. I mean come on… where's the imagination and creativity?

It does have really good stuff, though. I would say the sum is better than the parts. Best RPG ever? Not for me, but I am getting older, and fewer things manage to pull me away from everyday life and suck me in these days.

zakhal said:

But thats the whole point. He stopped making single player crpgs because he got more interested of mmos that allowed "people to make their own stories". He got totally lost into that.

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I'd say the only thing that "interested" Garriot at that point was money.

DA is amazing game, that's for sure.

The greatest RPG ever IMHO is still GOTHIC 2: NoTR

Yeah..everything will turn out allright.. you know ;-)

JDR13 said:

I'd say the only thing that "interested" Garriot at that point was money.

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I don't know JDR, Garriot has always been one for "community play" and really it's not surprising he went the MMO route. It's what he was always very passionate about. The social aspect or creating a community within his gaming world.

skavenhorde said:

Funny, that is one of the highlights for me. If the dialogue or voice acting were terrible then this would be an annoyance for me as well, but the acting is great and the story is deep.

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No argument that the story in this, or any other Bioware game, is very well-told.

But it's the exact same story they have already told multiple times. Changes in setting aren't enough for me. I would rather be led along a smaller story, as long as it had something intriguing and novel to it.

Bioware are disciples of Joseph Campbell in much the same way George Lucas is. I would much rather watch a movie like Pitch Black or Moon than watch another Star Wars movie though.

skavenhorde said:

There are very few games with an actual story to them that are any good. If that means it's more linear and you don't get to fly around the map like in Morrowind then please for the love of god make it linear. I say quality over quantity every time.

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I loathe the sandbox open-endedness of Bethesda games. I'm merely suggesting there's a middle ground, a sweet spot between the extremes of Daggerfall and Dragon Age.

Might and Magic 6 did so many things right when it comes to an open world that's still filled with interesting and engaging things to do.

Hell, WoW is a massive sandbox too, but it's just brimming with interesting things to do. Apples and oranges, sure… but Dragon Age was in development for a long time, with a massive budget, by a huge team of the best and brightest in the business. They could very easily have filled a world with the breadth and span of WoW, or Oblivion for that matter, with the detail such games normally lack.

My favorite crpg of all time is BG2, btw. That hit the sweet spot almost perfectly, imo.

Bioware are moving closer to movie-making with every game. I'm just asking for slightly more game and slightly less movie.

skavenhorde said:

If I wanted that then I'd play Oblivion or Morrowind or any of the other sandbox games out there. This is Bioware and one thing they have done well has been making a great game with a decent plot to it. Some of you may disagree, but I find the plot the best feature of this game and most of Bioware's games.

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I think I agree with you more than I don't. I do like Dragon Age. But I certainly won't be replaying it in 10 or 15 years. A good, even great story so rigidly unfolded before the player is just not the direction I want to see crpgs moving toward.

If you could get Beth. to build the world, and get Bio. to flesh it out; now that would be a game to play.

Now that I think about it, it's funny, but if I had to decide what do I expect from cRPG I'd say a large explorable world, yet the best games that come to my mind are Deus Ex and WtM: Bloodlines, both suffering from overly small amount of interactive space, and then there's Morrowind and Oblivion both suffering from the plot that just doesn't stick together enough to be considered as nicely told.

I guess a large world is a great thing, but only because I expect it to be filled with adventure. I don't find running the wilds killing random monsters too much of "my own story" because it turns out like a generic H&S/MMO boredom. So all in all I'd rephrase it to that I expect as large explorable world as can be achieved with keeping the story thick. That reminds me of jRPGs like Final Fantasy, with a fairly big world packed with plot, so IMO being able to label a game as western jRPG is actually a compliment, but honestly the only one such game I can think of is Anachronox.

DA:O has something like 10 locations altogether, each consisting of few rather small areas, without even much of a need to travel between them often, what in terms of plot/space content sets it in my mind somewhere around Deus Ex and Bloodlines with label "thick plot stuffed into a way to small world"…