Dragon Age - The DLC Debate

Zloth, the lurking dread behind the debate is the idea that some people have that Bioware is taking a completed product, chopping pieces out, then turning around and selling them as "extras". Furthermore, it's the fear that this will catch on in the industry as a whole, and worse yet go to the next level - "pay extra if you want to play this class", etc. Games are expensive enough as it is, now theyre gonna start chopping them up and charging us more? That's the impression

Whether it's the reality of what Bioware did or not is irrelevant to what I think is the unwashed masses - people who could give a shit less about extra development teams for the DLC or even care to look into such things. Bioware is releasing a game, meanwhile selling chunks of it at the same time giving the appearance of nickel and diming people. Its the appearance of brazenly ripping off people, that's what's rubbing people wrong.

If theyd have waited a while like i said before, letting everyone want what the other guy got in the other edition, or waited til people had time to complete the OC and be clamoring for more, then ride to the rescue w/ a dlc then it'd be different. As it is now, it jus looks like theyre being greedy

xSamhainx said:

If theyd have waited a while like i said before, letting everyone want what the other guy got in the other edition, or waited til people had time to complete the OC and be clamoring for more, then ride to the rescue w/ a dlc then it'd be different. As it is now, it jus looks like theyre being greedy

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I would MUCH prefer additional DLC that was integrated with the entire game and added to the overall experience on the first & best playthrough to getting something a couple of weeks after I've finished the game and saved the universe that I then wander off to do separately.

Dhruin said:

Try putting the "let's move on" after the insult next time if you really want to let something go.

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Classic. Can't really debate so attack with "your grammar sucks" insults. Childish really (considering English isn't my first language, I am OK with that though).

Besides, I don't really see anything wrong with my post.

Oh, now you've come to the point where the contents of the posts are irrelevant, but the grammar is ?

Thanks, txa, for making the clarification about Trials of the Luremaster beeing a free-add on. And a great one at that. I might add

And now for the matter at hand:

xSamhainx said:

Zloth, the lurking dread behind the debate is the idea that some people have that Bioware is taking a completed product, chopping pieces out, then turning around and selling them as "extras".

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I don't think this is the case, though.

Modern game procuction locks the game content down maybe 4-6 months before the game actually is relased using the last 4-6 months to test, test and test again. This means that developers risk sit around doing nothing or get shofted around to other teams. In order for companies not to fire any developers or QA testers, it is necessary for management to find them something to do.

And what they do is working on dlc such as Warden's Keep; 7-8 hours content will probably take around 6-8 months to make, I'd guess. Shale was, due to extra Bioware got, put back in. And from waht he has seen about this character, it (as it is a golem) seems to a very great character added to the game.

It is also a way, of course, to make sure that you get a) paid, bringing more income into the publishing and dev. house as well as b) get the most bang for your backs. You can have a team of maybe 4-5 (or 10 at the most) working on one dlc at a time. And then you price the dlc like maybe 1 US dollar for 1 hour of content or so.

xSamhainx said:

Furthermore, it's the fear that this will catch on in the industry as a whole, and worse yet go to the next level - "pay extra if you want to play this class", etc. Games are expensive enough as it is, now theyre gonna start chopping them up and charging us more? That's the impression.

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Oh, I totally agree with you. I think we all prett much do about this. Howewer, EA and Bioware (yes even Ray and Greg) want to move the industry toward this goal.
We, as consumers can do two things a) not buy their games anymore, including any and all dlc they throw at us b) buy their dlc and all games that have dlc in it.

I suggest that most people (not us) don't really care about whether or they need to pay for dlc or not; they'll just do it. And of, course EA and Bioware have used this as (major? perhaps) factor when deciding to include dlc in DA: Origins.

xSamhainx said:

Whether it's the reality of what Bioware did or not is irrelevant to what I think is the unwashed masses - people who could give a shit less about extra development teams for the DLC or even care to look into such things. Bioware is releasing a game, meanwhile selling chunks of it at the same time giving the appearance of nickel and diming people. Its the appearance of brazenly ripping off people, that's what's rubbing people wrong.

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Again, I agree with you - if people indeed do believe that Bioware is 'selling chunks of it' (the game). Most don't - it seems. And most people just don't realize when they been outsmarted.

xSamhainx said:

If theyd have waited a while like i said before, letting everyone want what the other guy got in the other edition, or waited til people had time to complete the OC and be clamoring for more, then ride to the rescue w/ a dlc then it'd be different. As it is now, it jus looks like theyre being greedy

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Yes, it certainly looks like Bioware is being greedy when releasing not one, but two dlcs when the game, DA: Origins, releases primo November 2009 - however, as said, Bioware got some extra and decided to make the best of it.

xSamhainx said:

As it is now, it jus looks like theyre being greedy

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To you maybe.

To me it looks like they're offering additional content above and beyond that which my retail pounds were originally funding. The opposite of being greedy.

With my cynical hat on at worst I see that it's an anti resale/piracy measure, which I still don't equate with being greedy.

ortucis said:

Classic. Can't really debate so attack with "your grammar sucks" insults. Childish really (considering English isn't my first language, I am OK with that though).

Besides, I don't really see anything wrong with my post.

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No, that's not my point. I'm not interested in attacking your grammar. You say "let's move on" (cool) and then afterwards liken me to a brick wall. Tossing in an insult at the end isn't really moving on, is it?

I'd have left this alone but I wanted to be clear I'm not attacking your grammar. That's it from me.

Dhruin said:

No, that's not my point. I'm not interested in attacking your grammar. You say "let's move on" (cool) and then afterwards liken me to a brick wall. Tossing in an insult at the end isn't really moving on, is it?

I'd have left this alone but I wanted to be clear I'm not attacking your grammar. That's it from me.

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Alright I apologize for insulting you (didn't mean to though but, like I said, English.. not my mother tongue).

I am not here to pick fights with anyone, not intentionally. I blame Bioware for all this..

kalniel said:

To me it looks like they're offering additional content above and beyond that which my retail pounds were originally funding. The opposite of being greedy.

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We don't know if that's true though. For all we know, it could very well be content that was originally part of the retail release.

I feels to me like games are going like other mega-hobby-corporations - eg. Games Workshop and Magic The Gathering.
Whilst I have not touched either for over a decade, back then it was very much "Well you can own the base set and play fine, but look at all these extras you are missing out on"
They were sociable though in a dingy pub function room, sweaty nerd way.

Now I just pore over power tools etc. for DIY. Useful in the real world!

huggster said:

Whilst I have not touched either for over a decade, back then it was very much "Well you can own the base set and play fine, but look at all these extras you are missing out on"

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I don't understand your point. I love GW and it already is a VERY expensive hobby. If you don't want the "extra" stuff then there is a simple solution. Don't buy it. No one is forcing you to and you can still have a very fun experience playing with what you already have.

Take Skaven as an example. I'm still using some Skaven I've owned for over 10 years now. Very rarely they'll come out with new heroes or models (one of the few armies that doesn't get much love from GW). If I want to buy these new models I like having the choice to be able to do so. As a matter of fact, I wish they would make more extras for Skaven giving me the option to buy it, if I want to. They were just recently upgraded with new heroes and a new codex, but the last time they did that for Skaven was like a decade ago.

However, there are a lot of people on the GW forums and apparently here that feel the way you do. People forget that there is already a ton of content provided. Like my army, I could have an infinite number of battles with that army without ever having to buy another one.

This DLC debate is similar. My god how big is this game already and people are complaining that there is going to be more if they want it. The game is big enough for me to be quite satisfied without ever having to buy any extra stuff. But I like having the choice to be able to purchase more if I WANT to. The only other option is that they don't provide anything more thereby taking the choice to buy something new away from me totally.

No I entirely see your point, however males being the creatures they are are easily 'lured' by extras and get in so deep its like a drug. (I guess I am talking more collectable card games here - plus I can't really comment on GW as that was so long ago ...).

What I am trying to say is hobby manufacturers are as bad as heroin dealers. (joking)

Oh, I like this comment "males being the creatures they are are easily 'lured' by extras."

Either your a woman or you have a very low opinion of yourself. We aren't the neanderthals that get 'lured' by something shiny…well not all of us, lol. I just like the choice to be able to continue or expand upon a hobby I enjoy (both GW and RPG games)

Both of those hobbies are great examples for my point of view. They both are niche hobbies and they both rarely get updated. In GW's case it's because they spend every resource they have on either Space Marines or Empire/Orcs for WFB. It's typical of me to choose Skaven which are like a niche army within a niche hobby. I never get the choice to buy the "new shiny" with my SKaven army. It's always the old and busted for me.

As for RPGs the same thing applies. We're lucky if we get maybe one or two good games a year (not counting this year which is a fluke), so I like this trend of expanding upon games that I already own and like. For example: NWN 1 and 2 had many expansions and DLC (premium content for NWN ) That expanded upon a game that I already enjoyed and so I got to continue playing a game that I liked.

I don't really see the downside to this. It's all optional and it's healthy for our genre. By making these smaller DLC the publishers and devs get to make more profit (no that isn't a dirty word) and we get to continue playing a game we like.

Of course people will always fear that they are leaving out content like in the great horse armor scandal. But by all accounts Dragon Age is HUGE and from the previews I've read it's one fun game with tons of content already in it. If what I've read is true I will still have a blast playing this without any of the "extras" that are being offered. If I want to get those extras later, then I might, but once again it boils down to having the option to do so.

Ok, that's it for my epic long reply. I think it boils down to having the choice, while others might think it boils down to ripping us off. I don't see it that way, but hey, I always look on the positive side of things

I think that also has something to do with a certain emotion :

Jealousy.

You feel as if something has been withheld from you.

Therrfore you might develop a feeling of jealousy against others.

Those who've payed.


(Edit : Sorry, grammar ? Can somebody please tell me whether it should be "withhold" or "withheld" ? I'm a bit dizzy today …)

(It's Withheld)

skavenhorde said:

We aren't the neanderthals that get 'lured' by something shiny…well not all of us, lol. I

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How about something "busty"?

Okay my old experience is of collectable card games where is was very much buying "booster packs" hoping to get rare card X. Buying them was like crack if I recall ....

hopefully it will be cool all this DLC malarkey - but when it comes to "choice" remember some people other than us, are maybe more easily "led" by marketing and so forth.

What do you think?