Baldur's Gate 3 - Yet More Rumours

I like elitism, as it always makes for fun(ny) arguments.

And I dont believe this rumor! How could an elite site such as this not have the scoop first!
 
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As much as I would love a chance to meet Keldorn, Jan, Edwin, Korgan and the rest of the NPCs of BG2 again, I actually hope this rumor is not true - unless it's Obsidian or BioWare, and they're generally not known to "push technology".
 
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The thing just is, I like both sides of the equation and don't think technological progress is a bad thing. In fact, I'm a big fan of it. I can see how people whose most favourite pastime is turn-based strategy and isometric turn-based RPG's would be annoyed... but that still doesn't make anything else you're not into "trash."
I think there is enough room for technological progress without making every RPG an First-Person-Elder-Scrolls-Shooter-Like-Game-with-Character-Stats-and-only-One-Character-to-Think-about.
But why would anyone want an isometric view over a top-down 3D view these days? I guess it has its fans, but I enjoy 3D so much better as far as immersion is concerned... from a strategic point of view, I guess isometric makes sense. Anyway, first-person Baldur's Gate 3 wouldn't make any sense at all. :)
Isometric doesn't automatically mean 2D. But a more tactical game or a Hack'n'Slay is played best from above. Maybe that lacks some immersion, but Torment was also isometric and I think nobody complained about its small degree of immersion. Fallout. Ultima VII. Maybe 1st person makes it easier, even for the most fanciless players, accepted. But not necessarily.

On the other hand, 3rd person / 1st person (i.e direct control of a single character) is the only way one can handle console games. Without keyboard and mouse, controls would be rather awkward on a console. But nearly every AAA project nowadays has to be released also on consoles. The reason behind that isn't technological progress. It's because consoles sell better than gaming PCs, consoles are played on the couch in front of a TV and consoles attract casual gamers more than PC. So you have to simplify your games for the lousy gamepad controls and bring in more action (for casuals). Since most developers are not able to bring in some innovation just like Assassin's Creed did (concerning controls) we only get simplified action RPGs in one way or another. And games are still designed for consoles and male beings, age 14 to 25. Or women, that don't fit to the first group. Or casuals that don't fit anyway. Unfortunately that results in nearly all titles becoming console action games, even pure PC games.

A more tactical game like Baldur's Gate doesn't sell on a console, so nobody wants to make such a game anymore. Even NWN2 tried to get rid of its roots with dumping marquee mode and multiselect, forcing the player to leave the companions to AI just like KotOR did (which was mainly a console game). Official dev statement: We didn't think that there would be a claim for this. Uhm? Sry? Didn't OEI say that they wanted to make a spiritual successor to BG2? Full party control? Isn't NWN2 a PC-only release? So why the heck are you presenting us a console gaming inspired bastard instead of making it fit to the platform you're releasing it for and the target audience you wanted to transfer from the old title to this release?
Personally I want to believe, they wanted 3rd person mode at all costs to attract some of the oblivion gamers, too, and didn't have enough time left to adjust controls for isometric view. First person players are the majority, bad luck (or at least the most common compromise)
Because having to swirl the camera around to the right angle constantly ruins the gameplay. (c.f. Neverwinter Nights to Baldur's Gate, Heroes of Might and Magic 5 to its prequels, etc)

If only game makers would understand that just because it's 3D doesn't mean you need to use a perspective camera - an axonometric one is much better suited for some types of games.
I think they could easily solve this problem if they would overhaul their blank out function (correct term?) for objects like trees or buildings. I think that could serve for both, isometric fans and full 3D fans.


@BG3:
I'm quite sure that Atari has plans to release another D&D game. They bought D&D licence for another 10 years, so there must be plans. But I also think the next one will be more mainstream than NWN2.
If it's gonna have to be another BG, it's definitely just for marketing reasons.
 
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As much as I would love a chance to meet Keldorn, Jan, Edwin, Korgan and the rest of the NPCs of BG2 again, I actually hope this rumor is not true - unless it's Obsidian or BioWare, and they're generally not known to "push technology".

I agree on that except I don't want Obsidian making BG3. NWN2 has been such a big disappointment.. but then again NWN1 has been as well... i.e I just hope if it does get released, it's not a disappointment.
 
BioWare will never ever make any D&D game in the near future if EA doesn't aquire the D&D licence (which they propably will not for at least 10 years, if Atari does not go bankrupt)
 
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As far as I'm concerned, MotB is the best D&D game since BG2, so I personally believe Obsidian would be quite capable of making more D&D games. However, with all their current projects, I doubt they have the capacity to start another major project. They are working on a "secret one" though, and it would make me very happy if that turned out to be BG3.
 
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Okay, I'm not... "fit" to anser anything right now due to... certain intoxications, but here goes...

If only game makers would understand that just because it's 3D doesn't mean you need to use a perspective camera - an axonometric one is much better suited for some types of games.

Yeah, I agree, okay. So we agree we can have gorgeous graphics and imaginative camera angels... not necessarily isometric. I'll be all for that. I'll even concede that there's been a preference, if that, to first-person in the last few years. The question is: what types of games are still being developed? And sadly, some of the older types are not getting much developer attention. On the bright side, they're (hopefully) doing stuff that's "pushing technology forward." Apparently, that's not to everyone's liking.

I will definitely read the rest of this thread and everyone that's posted in it, like Avantenor's thoughtful post, but I cannot at this time respond intelligently. Please excuse me for that. :)

P.S. To explain my position: I like such RPG games going as far as Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, Ultima Underworld, Neverwinter Nights, Final Fantasy, The Witcher, Oblivion, World of Warcraft, Mass Effect, etc.--even Eternal Sonata. All the old titles (which I didn't even remember here) to the modern ones and all deviations that are executed well.
 
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"By the way, does anyone remember back in about 2004 when PC Gamer reported that BG3 was already in development? I wonder if this rumor is about that same game, or if that game was cancelled."
That was the Black Hound. And as far as I know it didn't have anything to do with the bhaalspawn sage. But as a Codex regular I'm surprised that you missed it.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=16837&highlight=black+hound+sawyer


And on disliking 3D cameras I'm totally with KazikluBey. Fighting some 3d camera is not my idea of good gameplay.
 
No it wasn't. PC Gamer implied Atari had started development of a new BG3 with an unnamed developer. I suspect the reality was that Atari wanted to pursue that possibility but never actually began development - probably because they never had the right developer and financing.

I'm not convinced this BG3 exists, either.
 
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Ok, BG3 might not have in been in development in 2004, mentioned by PC Gamer and then cancelled but:
"Q: What is The Black Hound?

A: It is a new unofficial campaign module for Obsidian Entertainment's Neverwinter Nights 2 roleplaying game. The module's author is Josh (J.E.) Sawyer, currently employed by Obsidian as a lead designer, and formerly the lead designer of Icewind Dale 2 and two unannounced (and canceled) Black Isle projects - Baldur's Gate 3 and Fallout 3."
http://theblackhound.googlepages.com/theblackhoundfaq

That was the information I had in the back of my mind.
 
It was PC Gamer UK#184 that had BG3 by Atari

I can't find our threads on it (yet) but here's the Codex':

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5107

I'm not sure if VD typed out the short article verbatim or he's paraphrasing it because of his comment after.

Though BG3 won't be a direct sequel to the storyline of the first two BG games, Atari intends for the game to have similarly epic scope and feature a large gaming world populated by memorable characters.

It will feature cutting-edge 3D graphics, although the gamemakes haven't decided whether to license an existing engine or develop a new one. Atari ambitious design goal is to make a visually stunning RPG that both lives up to BG's great heritage and evolves the genre.

When asked if the follow-up would stick with isometric perspective, John Hight, Atari Executive Producer, indicated that Atari wasn't "afraid to move the camera for cinematic effect. [Your viewpoint] will be immersive then the traditional isometric perspective and bring you closer to the action. You want to see the fear in the orc's eye as you blast him with a fireball, don't you?"

BG3 will use the DnD 3.5 rules for an authentic roleplaying experience.

While there'll naturally be a lot of combat, Atari plans to include a wide variety of quests and incorporate non-combat-oriented skills to give bloodless solutions to some quests

Hight's bottom-line promise: "It will be epic"

I'm still looking for the screenshot. PC Gamer UK (part of CVG) doesn't archive their issues or pics online it seems and uses the same file name every month so its hard to chase this down. I remember someone managed to scan the relevant pages but there was very, very little information.

When the ToEE forums were all aflutter, one of the moderators spilled the beans on BG3 and other games to try to shut all that negativity up. He got in trouble for that IIRC.

In hunting this down I did find this Czech magazine Score cover from the same time period

http://www.score.cz/images/obalky/obalka_108.jpg

It has a subtitle to BG3 that I hadn't heard before and it looks to be newsworthy.

It would be good if we could hunt that issue down and get it translated.

-----

Black Hound is interesting. When JE Sawyer took over from Ferret Baudoin as lead project manager for NWN2 he stopped a lot of the work like Rideable Horses so they can get the project done in time.

Apparently, getting in over their head with a lot of work was the same reason that Jefferson (BI BG3) got stopped. They were trying to make a running a jumping game with a new engine and they overloaded themselves with work.

I don't remember if Ferret was trying to do the same thing with NWN2 but its ironic that Sawyer is trying to make Black Hound with it.
 
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True, but since when has continuation of the preceding installment been a requirement for sequels?

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that sequels, especially RPG sequels, more often that not tend to start with new stories. NWN1->NWN2 is a good example. Even Interplay's BG3 was not going to be a continuation of the bhaalspawn story.

Let's face it, a game called "Baldur's Gate 3" will only be done so for product recognition purposes.

I have no problem with that. However, I have certain expectations of a game that bears such a name, be it BG3, Fallout 3, Arcanum 2, NWN3, etc, especially if there is a number attached. While I won't have my expectations as high as to expect the same game on steroids, the least I would want is to bear at least some resemblance to its predecessors, and keep at least a few of the core elements.
 
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The story about the bhaalspawn is finished.
The Broken Sword Trilogy was finished as well - yet Revolution made another adventure game. (Because THQ - I think it was - wanted it so.)
 
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Yeah, the last time PC Gamer talked about Baldur's Gate 3 was back in '04 in their edition dedicated to the 30th anniversary of D&D. I posted a bunch of details about it on the IGN boards back then: http://boards.ign.com/baldurs_gate/b5445/65403368/p1/?59

This story sounds like pretty much the same hot air. And at this point I'd rather not see a BG3, since it could only mar the satisfactory ending of the series that BG2: Throne of Bhaal accomplished. If they wanted to make a new game with a new story and characters but the same gameplay style, however, that would be fine.
 
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Anyway, this sounds strange. A gaming mag to go as far as to feature a non-existend game is not completely out of the blue (as I read in a local magazine plenty of years ago about a game called NoCraft and am still expecting it :)) but to claim a subtitle? Indeed, something new. Was that a recent issue or an old one?

edit - I get, that was (probably) an extremely old April's Fool joke on their part ...
 
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Baldur's Gate 3 Forever ? :D ;)
 
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And at this point I'd rather not see a BG3, since it could only mar the satisfactory ending of the series that BG2: Throne of Bhaal accomplished. If they wanted to make a new game with a new story and characters but the same gameplay style, however, that would be fine.

I think that's exactly what you'll see. You'll either see a prequel, or a sequel set on the Sword Coast after the Bhaalspawn era that maybe makes passing reference to the events in BG1 and BG2. I don't have much of a problem with this. I really want an authentic party-based D&D game and other than that, I don't care what they call it. If they need to have "Baldurs Gate" in the name to attract fans of the first two games, then that doesn't bother me too much.

That was the Black Hound. And as far as I know it didn't have anything to do with the bhaalspawn sage. But as a Codex regular I'm surprised that you missed it.

I think that Black Hound came about more recently, and wasn't really related to the project that Atari was supposedly funding back in 2004. I got the impression back then that it was happening. i.e. a developer was actively working on it. I wonder if it got killed.
 
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