Sword Coast Legends - Extended E3 Press Demo

Oh, you don't fool me. I remember your passionate posts about this being the only proper D&D game likely to ever come forth. How these developers are brave and visionary - and what not ;)
How many other D&D licences do you see in production today? D&D was big in the 80s, man, it doesn't register with the younglings. We had Gold Box days and BG revival and NWN descent into modern times of "fuck D&D lets just rip it off and save money" style Dragon Age or Pillars of Eternity. If they're picking D&D they must know that this appeals to an older demographic and they'll have more oldschool expectations. This is what I'm saying.

In this case, I think you really want a proper NWN successor - much like I do - but the difference is that you've let that desire get in the way of seeing obvious signs that should make you worried.
Or are you letting little nothings get in the way of seeing obvious signs that should make you excited?
You're dismissing each and every one of those pointed out with an amazing lack of rational support.
No, I'm not. What are the issues? A detailed, sortable list system for inventory? Cooldowns on spells? I've explained all of this and you didn't offer a a debate against my explanation.

List each issue you have and I'll go to the effort of finding the replies for you. If you don't want to do this then stop talking shit.

On top of that, you've gone on some completely character-counter quest to pretend you're some kind of wide-eyed optimist, which is just absurd given your posting history.
Are you kidding? Lets discuss our history. I've only ever argued in defense of games. Name one game I was being negative about? Ok? I don't post in threads about games I have no interest in - that's what you do. Endless opinion pieces and never a build idea. Discussion between us was all you saying stupid things like "dark souls is just a diablo clone" and me trying to help you out. Consider it a favour I give to you for being a part of this site.
But as you're obviously a brave gamer-warrior, as your mastery of the computer game known as Dark Souls demonstrates, you should have the courage to simply let the game speak for itself when it's released?
Still mad at me cos you're too bad at games to beat Dark Souls.

News Flash - what else matters on an RPG site? Am I posting shit in Off-topic? If you wanna come to an RPG site and give me shit for being good at RPG you're in the wrong place.

Sure, the game will speak for itself. These are pre-release comments for people who want to be excited and discuss RPGs.
Let's see what it is when it's out - and then we'll know if my doubts were ever rooted in something real.
They are! A real waste of potential.
 
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How many other D&D licences do you see in production today? D&D was big in the 80s, man, it doesn't register with the younglings. We had Gold Box days and BG revival and NWN descent into modern times of "fuck D&D lets just rip it off and save money" style Dragon Age or Pillars of Eternity. If they're picking D&D they must know that this appeals to an older demographic and they'll have more oldschool expectations. This is what I'm saying.

That's quite a positive spin on picking the most popular RP system out there. It's impossible they picked it because of the potential profit involved, right?

Or are you letting little nothings get in the way of seeing obvious signs that should make you excited?

I'm afraid that a good implementation of D&D rules and classes don't represent nothings to me.

No, I'm not. What are the issues? A detailed, sortable list system for inventory? Cooldowns on spells? I've explained all of this and you didn't offer a a debate against my explanation.

I've stated this countless times already. It's the fact that they're not releasing details of the mechanics and rules implementation - and that they've only implemented half the classes. Most of all, though, it's the way the game comes off like a simplistic Diablo clone in the gameplay videos.

The cooldowns are definitely part of that, as I consider it a design-crutch that's never needed except in the old days of MMOs, where latency was a larger concern.

I don't simply assume that the important parts of D&D will be there or that it will come later, just because they say so.

It's probably because I can remember what not showing the good stuff usually means when it comes to PR.

List each issue you have an I'll go to the effort of finding the replies. If you don't want to do this then stop talking shit.

I don't think there's much point in repeating myself to someone unwilling to listen.

Are you kidding? Lets discuss our history. I've only ever argued in defense of games. Name one game I was being negative about? Ok? I don't post in threads about games I have no interest in - that's what you do. Endless opinion pieces and never a build idea. Discussion between us was all you saying stupid things like "dark souls is just a diablo clone" and me trying to help you out. Consider it a favour I give to you for being a part of this site.

Why would I want to discuss our history? It's not important or interesting. It was just relevant in terms of pointing out how unconvincing your "positive upbeat" attitude is in general about this game.

You've always come across as a hostile and abrasive ego-maniac. That doesn't change because of this wonderment shtick you're trying now ;)

You want me to try and convince you that your posting history demonstrates such an individual? I'd have better luck trying to get joxer to admit he's batshit crazy.

Still mad at me cos you're too bad at games to beat Dark Souls. News Flash - what else matters on an RPG site? Am I posting shit in Off-topic? If you wanna come to an RPG site and give me shit for being good at RPG you're in the wrong place.

I'm still not very impressed by your feat, if that's what you're asking. I was poking fun at you, I admit.

Sure, the game will speak for itself. These are pre-release comments for people who want to be excited and discuss RPGs.

Cool, let's see how it plays upon release. It's pretty close, thankfully.
 
That's quite a positive spin on picking the most popular RP system out there. It's impossible they picked it because of the potential profit involved, right?
Profit involved from what? D&D games don't make money.
I'm afraid that a good implementation of D&D rules and classes don't represent nothings to me.
What are the signs this is a bad implementation? You're unfamiliar with 5E rules so you must care more about the implementation being fun than identical to the tabletop game. Your whole thing is "I'm pessimistic, let's wait and see".

You know cooldowns can be fractions of a second? You'll have to wait a long time after casting powerful spells but there's lesser spells you can cast more frequently and there's never nothing to cast. Problem? If there's nothing stopping you from casting your most powerful spell constantly then you can cast 60 of them per second and how is that for game balance? I've been expecting you to talk about cast speed for a while now but you don't understand game design enough to make the points I was waiting for.
I've stated this countless times already. It's the fact that they're not releasing details of the rules implementation - and that they've only implemented half the classes. Most of all, though, it's the way the game comes off like a simplistic Diablo clone in the gameplay videos.

1. No details
Ask Peter Molyneux (Bullfrog, Lionhead, FABLE) what happens to people who promise more than they deliver.
2. Half the classes
It's a small team keeping the project to a manageable scope for the sake of quality over quantity.
3. Simplistic Diablo clone
If Dark Souls appears to you as a Diablo clone then it stands to reason that you'd say SCL looks like a Dark Souls clone. You don't have a clue what anything looks like.
The cooldowns are definitely part of that, as I consider it a design-crutch that's never needed except in the old days of MMOs, where latency was a larger concern.
So how would you handle the problem? You haven't said. Do you know?

I don't think there's much point in repeating myself to someone unwilling to listen.
dude, if I wasn't listening I couldn't trash your shit arguments with a single sentence like I am.
Why would I want to discuss our history? It's not important or interesting. It was just relevant in terms of pointing out how unconvincing your "positive upbeat" attitude is in general about this game.
I want to discuss our history since you brought it up. I think whats really happening here is you look at my evil picture and you've been called a noob by a million elitist jerks and come into our discussions with so much emotional baggage you don't even notice you just go around calling everything shit and I charge in like a knight on shining armour to defend it. This picture isn't me. It's my focus. My nemesis. The archvillan is the most important character in an RPG. You just don't think deeply enough to understand a thing I have to say.
You've always come across as a hostile and abrasive ego-maniac. That doesn't change because of this wonderment shtick you're trying now ;)
I'm a strong leader and you're a bitter wimp. Of course that's how you see me. You'd want me in your party. Stand behind me and this perceived hostility becomes your best ally. Would I want you in mine?
I'm still not very impressed by your feat, if that's what you're asking. I was poking fun at you, I admit.
And I understand why you poke fun at it. Envy.
Go on, say "I just think people who speak proudly of RPG related accomplishments on an RPG site are worthy of ridicule". With your 17,000 RPG related opinions posted with no achievements.

You're just lucky I still go by playground rules of "any kid with an Amiga is my friend", or I probably wouldn't give you the time of day.

I'll swap you Black Crypt for Secret of Monkey Island? :)
Cool, let's see how it plays upon release. It's pretty close, thankfully.
Can't wait!
 
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Profit involved from what? D&D games don't make money.

So, they picked the most popular system because they know they won't make money? Makes sense :)

What are the signs this is a bad implementation? You're unfamiliar with 5E rules so you must care more about the implementation being fun than identical to the tabletop game. Your whole thing is "I'm pessimistic, let's wait and see".

How many times must I explain that fun, to me, is not about correct implementation?

You know cooldowns can be fractions of a second? You'll have to wait a long time after casting powerful spells but there's lesser spells you can cast more frequently and there's never nothing to cast. Problem? If there's nothing stopping you from casting your most powerful spell constantly then you can cast 60 of them per second and how is that for game balance? I've been expecting you to talk about cast speed for a while now but you don't understand game design enough to make the points I was waiting for.

So, you're saying that games that don't use cooldowns - including all the good implementations of D&D, are actually bad because they don't have them?

1. No details
Ask Peter Molyneux (Bullfrog, Lionhead, FABLE) what happens to people who promise more than they deliver.

So, you're actually admitting that they can't deliver a good implementation?

So you DO see the signs? Thanks.

2. Half the classes
It's a small team keeping the project to a manageable scope for the sake of quality over quantity.

So, because they can't deliver quality versions of the classes, that's a good thing? I should be happy they know their limitations instead of realising what they are and pointing it out as a potential problem?

3. Simplistic Diablo clone
If Dark Souls appears to you as a Diablo clone then it stands to reason that you'd say SCL looks like a Dark Souls clone. You don't have a clue what anything looks like.

I'm afraid this isn't about me having a clue. It's about me explaining my problems with the game.

You asked what they were, and I'm explaining it to you.

I don't really think you agreeing with me is relevant or important.

So how would you handle the problem? You haven't said. Do you know?

Have you never played a D&D game without cooldowns that you liked?

I thought you had experience with them.

dude, if I wasn't listening I couldn't trash your shit arguments with a single sentence like I am.

I don't know what you mean by trash, but it sounds like a good description of what you're doing.

If you're actually listening before you "trash" them by ignoring what they are - and conjuring strawmen, then that's even worse.

I want to discuss our history since you brought it up. I think whats really happening here is you look at my evil picture and you've been called a noob by a million elitist jerks and come into our discussions with so much emotional baggage you don't even notice you just go around calling everything shit and I charge in like a knight on shining armour to defend it. This picture isn't me. It's my focus. My nemesis. The archvillan is the most important character in an RPG. You just don't think deeply enough to understand a thing I have to say.

Let me put it another way, it's not interesting to me. Could you explain why I should get into our history because it's interesting to you?

I'm a strong leader and you're a bitter wimp. Of course that's how you see me. You'd want me in your party. Stand behind me and this perceived hostility becomes your best ally. Would I want you in mine?

Why would I want you to want me?

And I understand why you poke fun at it. Envy.
Go on, say "I just think people who speak proudly of RPG related accomplishments on an RPG site are worthy of ridicule". With your 17,000 RPG related opinions posted with no achievements.

I don't think I'm ridiculing your feat. I'm ridiculing your estimation of the weight that feat carries with people other than yourself.

That's the difference between people with a solid ego, and people with an insecure inflated ego.

The latter tend to overestimate their own abilities - and they tend to go on about what they think they've accomplished.

You're just lucky I still go by playground rules of "any kid with an Amiga is my friend", or I probably wouldn't give you the time of day.

I don't have an Amiga anymore, though.
 
I'm going to bed now. I expect this thread will be at least two pages longer by the time I wake up, and that's just from the two of you. :)
 
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Hehe, nah, you're right JDR.

I got caught up in another timewaster.

Apologies.

I'll let it rest now.
 
I'm going to bed now. I expect this thread will be at least two pages longer by the time I wake up, and that's just from the two of you. :)


haha ... :)

Hehe, nah, you're right JDR.

I got caught up in another timewaster.

Apologies.

I'll let it rest now.

But at the same time, I actually enjoyed reading through this ... I am interested in the game, am pretty sure I'll buy it on release and play it for a while - yet I have no real passion about it. So reading the back & forth of strongly held opinions was actually of value for me on the outside ... even if it wasn't overly productive for you guys :)
 
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I'd go on if it didn't feel like constant repetition :)

I'm glad someone found it useful, though.
 
Cooldowns being used as replacement for short/long rest just means these devs are incapable of making a d&d game and should not have tried it. And the rest of problems are just toppings on the crap they are marketing
 
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So, they picked the most popular system because they know they won't make money? Makes sense :)
And that's where the passion comes into it.

If you look at D&D games over time.... Goldbox they were selling a good amount for their day for a while then interest just died out. Dark Sun, not selling enough for developer interest. D&D dies... BG is born years later and while we remember it as a classic BG2 didn't even sell well enough to make BG3. NWN tried to shake things up by going 3D and it did alright but NWN2 failed to reproduce the excellent toolkit and mod community the first NWN had and died. NWN3 isn't coming. So... Demon Stone? That crap RTS, Dragonshard? Daggerdale?

There's just no example to show that D&D makes money. It's a huge risk. There's nothing to show that the D&D license sells games and countless examples of D&D dying for years at a time.

We're so lucky that we have this game going back in the right direction that NWN was on.
How many times must I explain that fun, to me, is not about correct implementation?
You misread that one.

Anyway, you think it doesn't look like fun because it has cooldowns, which you haven't tried, which isn't in line with the rules you haven't read and don't care about. Got it.

You're still not telling me your solution.

So, you're saying that games that don't use cooldowns - including all the good implementations of D&D, are actually bad because they don't have them?

No, but maybe they are. I'd have to go with individual basis.

With BG2 co-op the resting mechanic was easily exploitable. You can face every encounter with a full 8 hours rest worth of spells which can trivialize the dungeons.

So do you block resting in dungeons? Is there anything to stop "scumming" where the party tediously treks to the surface to rest then goes back down repeatedly? Do you do what Pillars of Eternity does and have limited resting? If you have mana regeneration its advantageous to sit there and let it regenerate before you move on. Offering these boring ways to scum more power than you should have is what a good RPG has to avoid most of all.

What exactly is resting even adding to my game experience? Do I want to see that campfire screen fade to black or do I just want my spells back?

I don't want to go to the toilet in games, I don't want to do boring things like sharpen my sword. Sleep? I'll sleep when I'm dead!

Then when you consider that resting requirements differ greatly between classes it can just get annoying. a single person will stand out as being the reason we have to rest every 2 seconds. It might even get annoying. Wizard resting more than he should and AOE all the encounters with level9 evocations and the fighters have nothing left to kill.

You can set up your cooldowns in line with memorisations. Lets work out a really simple method right now.
spell_level*1 second.
There. That will mean I can get more level 1 spells in an encounter than I can level 3 spells. So, that didn't take long. Now with a little polish....
 
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Cooldowns being used as replacement for short/long rest just means these devs are incapable of making a d&d game and should not have tried it. And the rest of problems are just toppings on the crap they are marketing

So what's your solution?
 
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I'd go on if it didn't feel like constant repetition :)

I'm glad someone found it useful, though.

You're the one repeating yourself.

I've tried to steer this thread in a few directions, discussion about game design. Grid vs list inventories, rest vs cooldown spells. There are pros on cons on both sides and no one but me is talking game design.

I even tried to steer it into forming an RPGwatch party and playing together.

If you're feeling a bit redundant try joining the discussion.
DArtagnan said:
Why would I want you to want me?
I just thought you might like someone to play with.
 
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Good back and forth, I enjoyed it with my morning coffee. I hope when I get in this afternoon to pick back up reading.
 
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The Watch has become a very scary place indeed, where people are so desperate they're almost asking for more DArt walls of text ;)
 
The Watch has become a very scary place indeed, where people are so desperate they're almost asking for more DArt walls of text ;)

Meh, you have nothing to say.

Still waiting on your solution to cooldowns from a game design perspective. It ain't coming.

edit: If you can't think of a superior alternative solution I'm sure you'd say "that mean's there isn't one". See, I listen. I see what's going on. You think you're a master game designer with your 32 years experience, culminating in the inability to beat Dark Souls, but when it comes down to it you got nothing of substance to say and the enough ego to call me ego-centric while saying stupid things as though you believe yourself infallible, like "If i can't think of a solution that means there isn't one.".

How about this. You don't know everything, you don't know anything and you don't know yourself.
 
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So what's your solution?

Im curious about all of this (I haven't followed your conversation, but just noticed this comment) - I only looked at 5th Ed (the basic rules) last night and noted this long/short rest division. Why can't they simply allow you to 'camp' and specify how long you want to rest for? If you rest for a full span, you could suffer a very high chance of a random encounter (?) Or they could also introduce supplies as a limiting factor, like they did in PoE. Or maybe you can only do short rests outside of a town/major camp, and you can only take them every so often… Or you can find rare places to do a long rest, but they are infrequent (like spots with no random encounters in old IE games) Or..? I'm pretty sure game designers can come up with more creative solutions that don't fundamentally change important aspects of the game. Or get the community involved if they can't.

I don't think making spells/abilities operate on cooldowns is satisfactory if it's not part of the rules. I alway admired the extent to which the old IE games (and games like ToEE) - implemented D&D….cooldowns are radically different, and I dislike them to be quite honest.
 
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Im curious about all of this (I haven't followed your conversation, but just noticed this comment) - I only looked at 5th Ed (the basic rules) last night and noted this long/short rest division. Why can't they simply allow you to 'camp' and specify how long you want to rest for? If you rest for a full span, you could suffer a very high chance of a random encounter (?) Or they could also introduce supplies as a limiting factor, like they did in PoE. Or maybe you can only do short rests outside of a town/major camp, and you can only take them every so often… Or you can find rare places to do a long rest, but they are infrequent (like spots with no random encounters in old IE games) Or..? I'm pretty sure game designers can come up with more creative solutions that don't fundamentally change important aspects of the game. Or get the community involved if they can't.

I don't think making spells/abilities operate on cooldowns is satisfactory if it's not part of the rules. I alway admired the extent to which the old IE games (and games like ToEE) - implemented D&D….cooldowns are radically different, and I dislike them to be quite honest.

I think the reason they've got cooldowns in SCL is because it's the easiest way to make a multiplayer action RPG flow well, and that's obviously what they're going for.

It's been a trend for balance crutch design for a long time, and it's infested many games over the years.

You can see the same trend in countless fast-paced multiplayer games - and it's one way of minimising downtime in multiplayer (a big no-no), as D&D traditionally limits powers in terms of how many times per day you can use them.

Even Blizzard, which are usually great at designing fun mechanics have taken to implement this MMO mechanic in Diablo 3, where Diablo 2 never used cooldowns before the last patches. At least they were smart enough to restrict them to the "rare" powers.

IIRC, Path of Exile is delightfully free of cooldowns for the most part (there are a few, but I believe they can be circumvented by other powers) - and it's a game with a massive amount of active skills. A good demonstration of how to do it well.

Games like Neverwinter Nights circumvented this by making rest an abstract function, that wasn't so much about resting as it was about restoring powers. That introduces another issue, which is that it feels very gamey. Less gamey than cooldowns, though, at least to me.

That can be solved by restricting where you can rest, and some of the campaigns and modules did that pretty well.

I'd much prefer that over cooldowns, which is 100% counter to what I consider to be fun. Cooldowns is waiting for no reason, nothing more. Well, a weak reason being bad game design.

Another "real-time" implemention of D&D that worked reasonably well is DDO, which introduced the concept of spell points to D&D. It also had time-per-rest powers, but they were limited extra by making rest a thing you could only accomplish at specific shrines.

That's still a much better solution than cooldowns.

The recent Neverwinter MMO, which is one of those D&D games that don't exist if you ask SirJames, is the perfect demonstration of why cooldowns on powers is crap.
 
@booboo
Yeah, you wouldn't hear me complaining about resting if that was what they went for, but you won't hear me complaining about cooldowns because I understand they are there for many reasons. In the end the devs decided that it was better for the game and you know it wasn't a decision made lightly.

To quote myself, "do I want to see the campfire screen fade to black or do I just want my spells back".

One thing I find myself doing in RPG games is hoarding potions for "when I need them more", which, thanks to save/load, mostly never arises.

I think with resting you can get a bit of this mentality entering into your spell selection.

You enter a dungeon. You don't know how long the dungeon is or when you can rest next so you save your best spells that you'd have fun using more often.

You enter a dungeon. You know you can rest at any point. You only use your best spells and demand the party rest constantly. You have more fun at the expense of everyone else.

You enter a dungeon. You know you have 4 rests. You burn through them because 4 rests was all you were ever going to need by design. By time time your 4 rests of spells are gone so will the amount of monsters the 4 rests was designed for be. I won pillars using this method. 4 rests was too many, 1 wouldn't have been enough.

You enter a dungeon. Your spells are on cooldowns. You open with your best spells because you want to start their cooldown timer and therefore get the maximum number of this spell out possible in the time adventuring. This solution has the "just go for it" fun of unlimited resting while also imposing limitations on how many casts you can have and the bonus of the party never having to stop the adventure, however, I can see scumming issues of boringly waiting for your cooldowns or "wait for cooldowns", cries of your party potentially slowing you down in the same place resting would have anyway, however the party might choose to ignore this request during most common encounters, as they can handle it without the wizards best spell, and only wait for CD for the final boss.

Dungeons and Dragons Online decided to throw away resting and go with Mana points. I didn't approve, but it worked. Was the mana really needed, though, or were they just going with standard mmorpg conventions due to the success of WoW?
 
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IIRC, Path of Exile is delightfully free of cooldowns for the most part (there are a few, but I believe they can be circumvented by other powers) - and it's a game with a massive amount of active skills. A good demonstration of how to do it well.
Yeah, fantastic design in that game, and yet you've said Diablo3 was more fun several times. POE used Mana as their mechanic.
I'd much prefer that over cooldowns, which is 100% counter to what I consider to be fun. Cooldowns is waiting for no reason, nothing more. Well, a weak reason being bad game design.
See, here you are saying this… But I know you liked diablo3 and its cooldowns+mana more than mana only POE from previous discussions. (New POE expansion tomorrow!!!)

An example of the whole being more than the sum of its parts and an example why there's nothing to worry about with SCL cooldowns.
The recent Neverwinter MMO, which is one of those D&D games that don't exist if you ask SirJames, is the perfect demonstration of why cooldowns on powers is crap.

4th edition? Never happened. Seriously.
 
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So what's your solution?
There were plenty of D&D games in the past with different rest system. Pick one and if possible improve on it.

Personally I would use PoE system with limited camping supplies or DDO system with specific rest spots that only work once.

In addition to that, let players use short rest outside these spots in any area that is marked as "safe". This would work like in IE games where short rests had a chance to be interrupted by random encounters.
 
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