Darkest Dungeon - The Perils of Early Access

ChienAboyeur · August 23, 2015

screeg said:
Everything seemed to be rolling along nicely until Heart Attacks were added (my opinion) in an attempt to make the game "harder".

Not really. DD's case gives food for thought, that's for sure.

Just after released, the product went through a string of changes to please customers.

In the following weeks, various playstyles exhibited concerning information relatively to the product and the gameplay that could be associated to it.

Players employing the classical playstyle (application of the basic fundamentals associated to the "ugoigo" metagame, minute care etc), as the streamer Kabooki was doing during his streams, exhibited that the dungeons worked at the reverse of the expectations: exploring dungeons was supposed to be a stressful experience, yet, those players usually managed to decrease stress when adventuring in the dungeons.
The dungeons could be used to de stress heroes. As a consequence, the facilities designed to relieve heroes from their stress were made irrelevant.

It would not have been that bad if the use of this playstyle was called by the rest of the features. Not the case as it was shown by the playstyle used by some other players like TheSatellizer.

TheSatellizer self admitted he did not like turn based (ugoigo) games. He played accordingly by ignoring all the factors that were supposed to be lethal.
He ignored the light intensity. He ignored the quirks. He ignored the mental sanity of the heroes, often sending already broken down heroes in the dungeons.
While his parties took the odd casualties, usually, dungeons were clear and the mission successful.

Light intensity: irrelevant, quirks: irrelevant, mental sanity: irrelevant. In return, it showed that players, like Kabooki, used a playstyle that had no cause other than the player's will to use it. The use of it was not demanded by DD.

Both players, while playing differently, were having their fun, making that fun thing a moot point.

Despite all these deep flaws, DD was praised. This is when DD gives food for thought. The praise could not be for stressful dungeons, they were not, it could not be for relief buildings, light, mental sanity, or quirks as relevant elements to take into account in a decision making process to design a successful master plan to achieve success.

The question is why DD had received so much praise: a product hyped as difficult, punishing while success was reached when taking any kind of decision.

Devs' latest additions come brutally against that, it destroyed the illusion.

Sacred_Path · August 23, 2015

ChienAboyeur said:
Not really. DD's case gives food for thought, that's for sure.

Just after released, the product went through a string of changes to please customers.

In the following weeks, various playstyles exhibited concerning information relatively to the product and the gameplay that could be associated to it.

Players employing the classical playstyle (application of the basic fundamentals associated to the "ugoigo" metagame, minute care etc), as the streamer Kabooki was doing during his streams, exhibited that the dungeons worked at the reverse of the expectations: exploring dungeons was supposed to be a stressful experience, yet, those players usually managed to decrease stress when adventuring in the dungeons.
The dungeons could be used to de stress heroes. As a consequence, the facilities designed to relieve heroes from their stress were made irrelevant.

It would not have been that bad if the use of this playstyle was called by the rest of the features. Not the case as it was shown by the playstyle used by some other players like TheSatellizer.

TheSatellizer self admitted he did not like turn based (ugoigo) games. He played accordingly by ignoring all the factors that were supposed to be lethal.
He ignored the light intensity. He ignored the quirks. He ignored the mental sanity of the heroes, often sending already broken down heroes in the dungeons.
While his parties took the odd casualties, usually, dungeons were clear and the mission successful.

Light intensity: irrelevant, quirks: irrelevant, mental sanity: irrelevant. In return, it showed that players, like Kabooki, used a playstyle that had no cause other than the player's will to use it. The use of it was not demanded by DD.

Both players, while playing differently, were having their fun, making that fun thing a moot point.

Despite all these deep flaws, DD was praised. This is when DD gives food for thought. The praise could not be for stressful dungeons, they were not, it could not be for relief buildings, light, mental sanity, or quirks as relevant elements to take into account in a decision making process to design a successful master plan to achieve success.

The question is why DD had received so much praise: a product hyped as difficult, punishing while success was reached when taking any kind of decision.

Devs' latest additions come brutally against that, it destroyed the illusion.

and how is this news? All the Infinity Engine games could be played and won in the most boring ways imaginable. Yet people still praise these games for their tactical depth. IOW, roleplayers don't seem to have mandatory difficulty high up on their priorities list.

fadedc · August 23, 2015

Darkest Dungeon is intended to be very different then an Infinity Engine game though. The very opening blurb talks about how it's a game about making the most of a bad situation, losing quests and heroes. And clearly a cthulhu inspired game where you don't worry about sanity is not doing a very good job with the genre.

Heart attacks don't even make the game that much harder unless your completely ignoring the stress of your heroes. They just force you to pay attention to the mechanic.

Ultimately though the reviews for the game are still listed in Steam as being very positive, which means about 80-90% recommend it. The issue was just the vocal minority not the overall popularity. But because Steam lists the reviews with the most up-votes first, 100 people who are determined the tank the game can up-vote the few negative reviews so that they are all you see in the first few pages, even though there are 1000s of positive reviews.

ChienAboyeur · August 23, 2015

People are favourable to crowdfunded projects on the ground they are crowdfunded. This goes up to giving a score of 9/10 to a product that kept crashing and wiping saves in the doing.

The situation is a mess as DD led people to dismiss the crowdfunded card. It takes a lot for that card to be removed.

Sacred_Path said:
and how is this news? All the Infinity Engine games could be played and won in the most boring ways imaginable. Yet people still praise these games for their tactical depth. IOW, roleplayers don't seem to have mandatory difficulty high up on their priorities list.

It has nothing to do with boredom: players had their fun playing the way they play.
It has to do with mattering features and the weight they have in the decision making process.
Very hard to think that a game from the 1990s and early 2000s can match DD.
There are some products that can match DD achievements. They are products made lately.
Concern about gameplay was too high before to release this kind of products.

The trend that is being established: gameplay no longer matters, hence the possibility to release products like DD.

rune_74 · August 23, 2015

ChienAboyeur said:
People are favourable to crowdfunded projects on the ground they are crowdfunded. This goes up to giving a score of 9/10 to a product that kept crashing and wiping saves in the doing.

The situation is a mess as DD led people to dismiss the crowdfunded card. It takes a lot for that card to be removed.

It has nothing to do with boredom: players had their fun playing the way they play.
It has to do with mattering features and the weight they have in the decision making process.
Very hard to think that a game from the 1990s and early 2000s can match DD.
There are some products that can match DD achievements. They are products made lately.
Concern about gameplay was too high before to release this kind of products.

The trend that is being established: gameplay no longer matters, hence the possibility to release products like DD.

Oh give it a rest, you always do these long posts about the game how it is terribly broken and horrible. I think sometimes you do posts like this to show off or something, it is old and tiring at this point.

The game isn't bad at all, regardless of you pointing to a streamer playing it.

fadedc · August 24, 2015

I can't even understand anything that Chien is saying well enough to know if he's attacking the game or defending it.

rune_74 said:
Oh give it a rest, you always do these long posts about the game how it is terribly broken and horrible. I think sometimes you do posts like this to show off or something, it is old and tiring at this point.

The game isn't bad at all, regardless of you pointing to a streamer playing it.

rune_74 · August 24, 2015

fadedc said:
I can't even understand anything that Chien is saying well enough to know if he's attacking the game or defending it.

I was a bit harsh but man....the monologues he goes on....

ChienAboyeur · August 24, 2015

rune_74 said:
Oh give it a rest, you always do these long posts about the game how it is terribly broken and horrible. I think sometimes you do posts like this to show off or something, it is old and tiring at this point.

The game isn't bad at all, regardless of you pointing to a streamer playing it.

Showing off what? to who?

Forums of this kind are supposed to collect opinions by players. Argumented if possible. Argumentations done by people over six years of age are generally expected to be a bit more than the "I like it", "it is fun"

Argumentations that could show DD to be otherwise are welcome. Cant say that for DD or what other products, the offer has been overwhelming so far.

fadedc · August 24, 2015

Well I think part of the problem is that your English skills are nowhere nearly good enough to make the type of advanced arguments that you are trying to make. As a result most of the time none of us can understand what you are trying to say.

If you really want to make these types of arguments, you may want to consider taking some more English classes, or otherwise trying to improve your mastery of the language. I'm not saying this to be insulting, I speak a second language myself, I know how hard it is, and I sometimes get negative feedback myself. But it is important to know when nobody can understand what you are trying to say. I'm sure your fine when it comes to day to day English, but when it comes to having advanced computer game discussions, your English skills don't even come close to being good enough.

ChienAboyeur said:
Showing off what? to who?

Forums of this kind are supposed to collect opinions by players. Argumented if possible. Argumentations done by people over six years of age are generally expected to be a bit more than the "I like it", "it is fun"

Argumentations that could show DD to be otherwise are welcome. Cant say that for DD or what other products, the offer has been overwhelming so far.

ChienAboyeur · August 25, 2015

Nobody cant understand what was written but yet

Oh give it a rest, you always do these long posts about the game how it is terribly broken and horrible.

As the usual, one thing and its opposite.

There was nothing advanced, only basic and obvious observations on the gameplay.

Players unable to make those basic observations for themselves only display their lack of interest for gameplay.

This is what happened for DD: when devs took measure to try to address the massive flaws, they forgot to take into account that players were not interested in their products for gameplay.

fadedc · August 25, 2015

And again it's very hard to understand what your saying. Sometimes people can understand the gist, but that's usually about it. If your not saying anything advanced, and your having a hard time communicating even basic things in English, then that's all the more reason to consider what you can do to improve your language skills.

ChienAboyeur said:
Nobody cant understand what was written but yet

As the usual, one thing and its opposite.

There was nothing advanced, only basic and obvious observations on the gameplay.

Players unable to make those basic observations for themselves only display their lack of interest for gameplay.

This is what happened for DD: when devs took measure to try to address the massive flaws, they forgot to take into account that players were not interested in their products for gameplay.

ChienAboyeur · August 25, 2015

When people cant observe basic things by themselves, it signals there's nothing to discuss.

screeg · August 25, 2015

fadedc is right, Chien, that's as simple as I can put it. Your English needs work. My French is terrible, I know what I'm talking about.

ChienAboyeur · August 25, 2015

The previous comments contained nothing ground breaking, only basic observations.
Players with an interest for gameplay cant fail to make those observations.
The level of english displayed in the previous comments cant be the cause for the lack of other posts reporting similar observations.
This site could be packed with posts making the observations. It is not.

When people fail to make basic observations for themselves, there is nothing to be discussed.

It is delusional to intent to discuss the birds flying overhead when people fail to see the birds flying overhead.

fadedc · August 25, 2015

Again I can't understand you. I wonder if you understand English well enough to understand what we are saying either.

ChienAboyeur said:
The previous comments contained nothing ground breaking, only basic observations.
Players with an interest for gameplay cant fail to make those observations.
The level of english displayed in the previous comments cant be the cause for the lack of other posts reporting similar observations.
This site could be packed with posts making the observations. It is not.

When people fail to make basic observations for themselves, there is nothing to be discussed.

It is delusional to intent to discuss the birds flying overhead when people fail to see the birds flying overhead.

Wisdom · August 25, 2015

And yet I understand him just fine. His syntax is peculiar but still very understandable.

He has several valid points. It doesn't seem like he is looking for a fight. Just some reasonable arguments pro or con.

Sacred_Path · August 25, 2015

Can't see any birds? That's because only Chien can see them.

He's like the Celtic envoy to Rome who only has a limited grasp of the common language but reads us the auguries so we can divine the quality of unfinished RPG's.

close thread y/n

fadedc · August 25, 2015

Maybe you can translate for us then?

Wisdom said:
And yet I understand him just fine. His syntax is peculiar but still very understandable.

He has several valid points. It doesn't seem like he is looking for a fight. Just some reasonable arguments pro or con.

wolfing · August 26, 2015

His English is not bad, it's just that he speaks like someone from Victorian England with long words and flourishes. Instead of saying "I don't like the game because it's dark" he says something like "The idiosyncrasy of the game is such that the chromatic spectrum is heavily biased towards the ultraviolet aspects, thus rendering useless a wide fulcrum of possibilities".

rune_74 · August 26, 2015

ChienAboyeur said:
When people cant observe basic things by themselves, it signals there's nothing to discuss.

I think, and I could be wrong, but you were trying to insult my intelligence?

I only said what I said, not solely because of what you wrote, but because every time there is a thread on this game you add two to three pages of your opinions that you pass off as facts.

You don't like that game, that's great, don't agree with you as I think it's a solid title...it isn't going to revolutionize the gaming industry but that's not what it's trying to do.

Is it fun or not is totally relevant in discussing video games, due to the fact if it's not fun why bother playing the damn thing.

Darkest Dungeon - The Perils of Early Access

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