Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’

Humanity has risen! · December 18, 2014

I came across this on the Acts 17 Apologetics channel. The guy behind the ministry explains how he used to be a hardcore atheist, but he had a transformational experience where he was redeemed by Jesus Christ. He has now left atheism and is a Christian apologist. He has a degree in biology, two masters and a PhD in philosophy so he is no uneducated fool.

Listen to what horrible things he did in his life… wow! Mind blowing!

Powerful testimonies like his stand as evidence that God can and will deliver anyone from anything if you only commit your soul to Him and accept His Grace. He doesn't care what you've done, He wants you to come back into His fold.

Roq · December 19, 2014

Humanity has risen! said:
I came across this on the Acts 17 Apologetics channel. The guy behind the ministry explains how he used to be a hardcore atheist, but he had a transformational experience where he was redeemed by Jesus Christ. He has now left atheism and is a Christian apologist. He has a degree in biology, two masters and a PhD in philosophy so he is no uneducated fool.

Listen to what horrible things he did in his life… wow! Mind blowing!

Powerful testimonies like his stand as evidence that God can and will deliver anyone from anything if you only commit your soul to Him and accept His Grace. He doesn't care what you've done, He wants you to come back into His fold.

That is confirmation bias - That kind of story is exactly what you were looking for, because it fits in with your already preconceived notions and you no doubt didn't even glance at the cases where people lost their faiths. If you wanted to believe conspiracy theories about the holocaust or the two towers, you could certainly find confirmation of those somewhere too. When you evaluate evidence you need to look at the whole picture not one particular anecdote. And in any case people who claim to be skeptical are not necessarily so and often turn out to be extremely gullible. In a world where some people who should know better can fall for a simple email scam, it is hardly surprising that they fall for duff religions that promise eternal rewards too.

Pladio · December 19, 2014

Humanity has risen! said:
For most of the 20th century contrarily to the rest of North America, Quebec had no path to divorce and the world didn't stop. The older generations were much, much happier than the current ones. It is very easy to see when you compare people from my grandmother's generation to my mother's generation.

It is supposed to be a life-long bond and it is in the interest of society that the bonds people pass with one another are made life long. That is not to say that one should endure an abusive situation due to criminal behavior. If someone commits violent crimes then the police than take him or her away.

But if people simply "fall out of love with each other" or "have a tough time" that should not be ground for divorce. If you can break a marriage on a whim then it means nothing anymore. And the family is a microcosm of society in general.

Again, good politician, but no answer …

Your first paragraph is nothing but your opinion and has no basis in anything but your belief that marriage makes people happier.
For example in India they have arranged marriages in some areas still and some women who are barely of age get forced into marriage with 60 year old men.
You really think those women are happier ?

AGAIN, I understand you think marriage is better than non-marriage, but do you think that divorce should be illegal ?

Humanity has risen! · December 19, 2014

If you think it's not clear enough, yes. Marriage is supposed to be a life-long commitment: one man, one woman, for life.

When I got married to my wife it was with the understanding I would be forever married to her and I would never leave her, or get remarried if she was to leave me one day.

Pladio · December 19, 2014

Humanity has risen! said:
If you think it's not clear enough, yes. Marriage is supposed to be a life-long commitment: one man, one woman, for life.

When I got married to my wife it was with the understanding I would be forever married to her and I would never leave her, or get remarried if she was to leave me one day.

Thank you.

Does this then apply under every single and all circumstances ?

And again, let's start with extremes.
So I'm not talking about people "falling out of love" or "getting tired of being married".

Should divorce be illegal even if your wife decides to hurt you both physically and mentally. Imagine you being abused on a daily basis, being denigrated and even stabbed at some point. Should you be allowed to divorce your wife ?

Humanity has risen! · December 19, 2014

The authorities could intervene, or you could leave, but no, you should always remain married.

Roq · December 19, 2014

Humanity has risen! said:
The authorities could intervene, or you could leave, but no, you should always remain married.

That is why secular morality is so superior to religions. Because it is based on compassion and not immutable laws that should be followed, just because, regardless of how much people suffer. Your complete inflexibility hardly makes a very good case for why anyone should adopt your religion. One just breathes a sigh of relief that there is no sensible reason to do so.

Humanity has risen! · December 19, 2014

Actually, no, as I posted from a completely secular perspective, no civilization in the history of mankind ever survived without strictly enforcing monogamy and marriage.

Nobody is forced to become Christian, but considering that all someone has to do in order to be granted eternal life is to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, I don't see what they have to lose.

Pladio · December 19, 2014

Humanity has risen! said:
The authorities could intervene, or you could leave, but no, you should always remain married.

Well then, you see, I am very happy you do not get to define laws for other people.

Your laws would lead to much more pain than you seem to be able to conceive or you do not seem to care.

When I asked whether you shouldn't be divorced if your spouse stabbed you, I was talking about a real life example that happened to someone I know.

Unfortunately, they live in a country which espouses those morals you would like to have and could not easily get divorced without being shunned by the entire community and had to live with her husband for several months before she managed to find a job elsewhere.

By the way, your point about civilisations not lasting due to polygamy is nothing but a red herring by the way. At best you are ignorant of world affairs and history, at worst you point this out knowingly of a religion which promotes polygamy, has lasted for more than 1000 years and is polygamous. Either way, you are wrong.

Roq · December 19, 2014

Humanity has risen! said:
Actually, no, as I posted from a completely secular perspective, no civilization in the history of mankind ever survived without strictly enforcing monogamy and marriage.

Nobody is forced to become Christian, but considering that all someone has to do in order to be granted eternal life is to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, I don't see what they have to lose.

Your religion is just one of millions of religions that exist and have existed, so there is no more reason to bet on that than any of the other ones, if one was really serious about taking Pascal's Wager.

And there is no reason to believe that the success or otherwise of civilizations depends on one man being made to live with one woman by force, come what may. What we can say, with some certainty, is that our happiness and well being in the western world have been greatly facilitated by science and secular moral philosophy based on compassion, whilst those societies still under the sway of rigid religions are not ones most of us would want to contemplate.

Humanity has risen! · December 19, 2014

Roq said:
Your religion is just one of millions of religions that exist and have existed, so there is no more reason to bet on that than any of the other ones, if one was really serious about taking Pascal's Wager.

And there is no reason to believe that the success or otherwise of civilizations depends on one man being made to live with one woman by force, come what may. What we can say, with some certainty, is that our happiness and well being in the western world have been greatly facilitated by science and secular moral philosophy based on compassion, whilst those societies still under the sway of rigid religions are not ones most of us would want to contemplate.

Like St Paul said, you might have the feeling like you have the right to do anything based upon your emotions, but not everything is beneficial.

All I ask of you at this point if is God starts calling out to you, to not reject His call, because He does love you. I will be adding you to the list of Watchers I pray for.

Pladio said:
Well then, you see, I am very happy you do not get to define laws for other people.

Your laws would lead to much more pain than you seem to be able to conceive or you do not seem to care.

When I asked whether you shouldn't be divorced if your spouse stabbed you, I was talking about a real life example that happened to someone I know.

Unfortunately, they live in a country which espouses those morals you would like to have and could not easily get divorced without being shunned by the entire community and had to live with her husband for several months before she managed to find a job elsewhere.

By the way, your point about civilisations not lasting due to polygamy is nothing but a red herring by the way. At best you are ignorant of world affairs and history, at worst you point this out knowingly of a religion which promotes polygamy, has lasted for more than 1000 years and is polygamous. Either way, you are wrong.

I don't advocate for personal tragedies or abuse, but yes I believe marriage is the most sacred vow one can take and that it is until death does you apart.

Actually read up on a book called Sex and Culture by an anthropologist named J.D. Unwin. He studied world history and found out that no rising culture ever proliferated without protecting monogamy.

It is debatable whether Islam is a poligamist culture, poligamist unions always represented a very small part of all marriages within Islam. The consistency is that through history, when things like divorce occured within a culture, it was when said culture was in a steep decline.

Pladio · December 19, 2014

Humanity has risen! said:
I don't advocate for personal tragedies or abuse, but yes I believe marriage is the most sacred vow one can take and that it is until death does you apart.

Again, I'm happy you do not dictate laws.

Also, I am sure it's very easy to say what you're saying when you're not in such a situation.

Actually read up on a book called Sex and Culture by an anthropologist named J.D. Unwin. He studied world history and found out that no rising culture ever proliferated without protecting monogamy.

It is debatable whether Islam is a poligamist culture, poligamist unions always represented a very small part of all marriages within Islam. The consistency is that through history, when things like divorce occured within a culture, it was when said culture was in a steep decline.

Of course it represents a smaller part of civilisation. You cannot take your second or third wife until you've had your first one.
Additionally, many Islamic teachings state that you should not marry multiple wives if you will not be able to be just and fair to them. So, people without the means will in general not marry multiple wives.

I do not see Islam as a dying culture, if anything it is thriving in many areas in the world...

In case you didn't know, the Old testament also has many instances of polygamy, including laws for remarriage :

Deuteronomy 25:5-10
5 If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband’s brother shall take her and marry her and fulfil the duty of a brother-in-law to her. 6 The first son she bears shall carry on the name of the dead brother so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.

7 However, if a man does not want to marry his brother’s wife, she shall go to the elders at the town gate and say, ‘My husband’s brother refuses to carry on his brother’s name in Israel. He will not fulfil the duty of a brother-in-law to me.’ 8 Then the elders of his town shall summon him and talk to him. If he persists in saying, ‘I do not want to marry her,’ 9 his brother’s widow shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, take off one of his sandals, spit in his face and say, ‘This is what is done to the man who will not build up his brother’s family line.’ 10 That man’s line shall be known in Israel as The Family of the Unsandalled.

Roq · December 19, 2014

Humanity has risen! said:
Like St Paul said, you might have the feeling like you have the right to do anything based upon your emotions, but not everything is beneficial.

On the contrary, I don't believe in absolute rights or rigid doctrines for emotional reasons or otherwise. I just notice that other people give the impression of reacting and suffering in much the same way that I do myself and to that extent I can empathize with them and wish them well in situations that I can relate to and favour solutions that I would want myself, should I be in the same situation. And that fellow feeling is the basis of any sensible morality of compassion, not inflexible rules from old books such as the Koran or the Bible which, even if they once had some relevance as rules of thumb, long ago, do not now.

Corwin · December 19, 2014

Just a side note, the Bible does permit divorce for adultery, but suggests that it should be a last resort. Forgiveness should always come first. There are several reasons why Paul spoke against marriage and one of them is that some people (mainly men I suspect) found the monogamy too much of a challenge. I actually have a sermon of the topic of marriage and God's attitude towards it if people are interested, but the postage would be high!!

Damian · December 19, 2014

Corwin said:
Just a side note, the Bible does permit divorce for adultery, but suggests that it should be a last resort. Forgiveness should always come first. There are several reasons why Paul spoke against marriage and one of them is that some people (mainly men I suspect) found the monogamy too much of a challenge. I actually have a sermon of the topic of marriage and God's attitude towards it if people are interested, but the postage would be high!!

Please post it. I am wondering if i agree with it. I have a blanket belief about Christianity, it is about sacrifice in order to change humanity for the better i wonder if that is inline with your sermon.

Caddy · December 20, 2014

I interrupt this thread to wish you all Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas and have a great New Year!!

Corwin · December 20, 2014

Damian said:
Please post it. I am wondering if i agree with it. I have a blanket belief about Christianity, it is about sacrifice in order to change humanity for the better i wonder if that is inline with your sermon.

Damian, it's a DVD; I would have to make a copy and mail it. That costs real money!!

Damian · December 20, 2014

Oh sorry. I thought it was in text form.

Humanity has risen! · December 20, 2014

If I am not mistaken, that passage in Matthew is hotly contested. I do not really think it means infidelity in and of itself. From my own studies of the arguments about its signification I think it rather has to do with a man finding out upon his wedding night that the woman he married was said to be a virgin, and he discovers that he isn't.

Marriages within the Catholic church so long as both parties have understood it are for life.

ChienAboyeur · December 22, 2014

Where does the affirmation that the former germanic laws allowed death penalty for common things like robbery etc?
Usually, it is reported that death penalty was avoided as possible, that compensation,maiming people, banishment were preferred.

Corwin said:
For example, Moslems in Sydney were horrified at what was happening and totally disowned the perp. Far too often extremists of all 'faiths' pretend they are representing that faith, but really they aren't according to the vast majority who adhere to that particular faith. It's quite well known that I have an intense dislike for the so called televangelist send me your money preachers. They often give Christianity a bad name and they make me ill. I'm sure people involved with other religions can relate to something similar!!

These days, Muslims are assigned to a certain position that must be under some others. These are declarations of obedience and have no value.
Soon, muslims are going to be asked to apologize when a muslim burps at a dinner and that it shocks people around.

You must read the books and see what they can justify and what they cant.
The Qran, just like the two other main books, allow to justify the action performed in Sydney.
Again, the old, new testaments, the Qran do not allow to justify everything.
Contraception, for example, is one of these other things that cant be justified using those texts.

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