Spiderweb Games - Make Your Game Easy. Then Make It Easier.

skavenhorde said:

I also don't agree with Jeff's closing statement from the article:

If your game is actually fun, killing the player won't make it more fun. But nothing sucks all of the fun out of a good game faster than repeated failure.

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Yeah. I´d say, if the rest of the game is fun, well thought out and fair challenge will make it only more fun for most of the players. Of course, if it´d just be the quadruple-enemy-hitpoints-and-be-done-with-it variety, that´d be a different story.

Overcoming obstacles is pretty much a defining aspect of almost anything that can be called a game so letting a player be able to sleepwalk through them seems like stripping the game of its essence to me.

Of course, everyone has different thresholds in regards to perceived difficulty, so well implemented difficulty sliders seem like a good solution to me.

turian said:

whats the deal on playing very hard?

just to beat the game on this mode?
nothing more?

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As I implicated above, if the challenge is meaningful, then more difficult obstacles are, more rewarding overcoming them is.

Hindukönig said:

Vince talks about the "hardcore" player. Jeff wants to sell his games to a wider variety of players, thus he is saying: Make your games easier, and add an extra difficulty level for the hardcore player if you want.

So why should Vince not agree with Jeff?

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Well, Vince can say whatever he wants, but until he actually releases something it is all talk. Basically the same as what you or I say on here. I think difficulty should be adjustable to suit everyone...you want an easy combat game, more power to you...some people play for the storey not the slam of a hard battle...some like a middle ground. I see no issues with this at all...if you have a game to hard that the person gives up and never plays again you have lost(not all players will do this.)

All this reaction from an attempted joke about somebody's signature over at Iron Tower. I find this a little strange. Maybe I should of known better than to bring Vince's name up. It always brings out some sort of reaction

In any event, Rune, you're sorta missing the point. it depends on what kind of game you are making. If you are making a game with a more wide appeal then indeed you have lost when somebody gives up, but if you are making a game for a certain fanbase then no you haven't lost.

As an indie you will want to sell enough games to be profitable, but that doesn't mean you have to compromise your game in order to do so. My example of KOTC still fits. A hard game made for a certain type of player and yet it is somewhat popular. Another title might be Armageddon Empires. A game made wih a certain type of gamer in mind. There are a ton of indies out there and they all cater to a specific type of gamer. Even the casual gamer

These are indies we are talking about, not some AAA developer. AAA's target everyone with their games. Indies target specific types of gamers.

This is true. That said, Jeff said AV4 - one of his most linear titles - sold fantastically and really turned things around. Maybe he feels opening the door to a more casual audience gains more than he would lose from his traditional customer base. Dunno.

I'd like to catch up with him again, so I may plan an interview and ask.

I'm not quite sure what to think of this article. On some points I completely agree with him, but overall I think I disagree with his main point. Also I think it's a little strange for Jeff to make such a comment since his games are generally quite hard - although I realize that he points out that fact himself! I guess the point of his post is simply to make a comment on what he believe is right for his next game series.

As it has been said earlier in this thread I think he should be careful about that move though, because I simply don't believe that people who are buying Spiderweb games are very casual players in general. Some might be, and some might complain a lot about the difficulty in his current games, but as a group I think casual gamers will pick up much more polished AAA titles. Especially considering the fact that right now a Spiderweb RPG actually often cost more than a AAA game that has been on the shelf for 6-12 months.

To be honest, even though I think his games are generally great, I think I'm paying overprice for his products - if you compare them to other titles produced by larger companies. And just to make it clear - I'm happy to do so, because I guess I'm a niche gamer and because I understand that he (probably) sells his games as cheaply as he possibly can while still supporting his business.

Dhruin said:

This is true. That said, Jeff said AV4 - one of his most linear titles - sold fantastically and really turned things around. Maybe he feels opening the door to a more casual audience gains more than he would lose from his traditional customer base. Dunno.

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I think I may have come off too "hardcore" gung ho. Since I don't have any of the worries of actually owning an indie business I can't really know what it takes to keep one up and running. Jeff has got all those problems. I'm just the 'armchair developer' In any event I hope he does actually start to make more money and sell more. His more popular ones are just fine by me as well. I would like him to keep them as challenging as his previous titles.

I just hope that what he says about people who play his games isn't true (I have a sinking suspicion it is) in that they want to be bad ass all the time. He would know better than I since I don't get emails from people who actually played his games. From my own experience that isn't that case. I buy a lot of independent games because they are the only ones that are making a more challenging game (though DA comes pretty darn close)

I'd like to catch up with him again, so I may plan an interview and ask.

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I would love to read that interview.

KasperFauerby said:

To be honest, even though I think his games are generally great, I think I'm paying overprice for his products - if you compare them to other titles produced by larger companies. And just to make it clear - I'm happy to do so, because I guess I'm a niche gamer and because I understand that he (probably) sells his games as cheaply as he possibly can while still supporting his business.

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I've heard this said before and I don't get it. I buy a lot of indie games and I find his prices just about right for what you get. People forget that on top of the registration code, he sends you the cd and there is a lot of content within his games. More than most indie games. Let me give you a list of a few of the games I've purchased or plan to purchase relatively soon.

Kingdom Elemental - $19.95
Eschalon - $19.95
Eschalon II - $24.95
Eschalon II + CD - $34.95
Knights of the Chalice - $24.67
Aztaka - $14.95
Depths of Peril - $19.99
Fastcrawl - $19.95
Mount & Blade - $29.99
Armageddon Empires - $29.99
The Omega Syndrome - $14.95 (BTW, while searching for a price for this one I found a place that sells it again)
Trine - $19.99
Dominions 3 - $54.95
Scallywag - $29.95
Empires & Dungeons - $19.95 + $3.95 extended download service (I hate those)
Devil Whiskey (box set) - $34.95
Demise Download - $24.95
Demise - Rise of Ku'Tan (box set) - $34.95


As you can see the prices vary a lot. The general price for an independent game is between $20 - $30. Some are more and some are less depending if you get the actual CD or not.

Jeff's games are normally $25 for the older ones and $28 for the newer ones. He also has bundled packs.

You can't compare his games prices to the other $5 casual games out there. Those last about 10 seconds. They are like junk food and I really wish those type of games would just go away and die. They are forcing indies into cutting their prices when they work 100X harder on the games than those crap casual games (not all of them are bad. I'm talking about the ones made in about 10 seconds and last just about that long)

And Kasper, I'm not personally attacking what you said. I know you said you have no problem with his prices. It's a little frustrating because I have read about this debate many times and I still don't see where people are getting that his prices are too high. Unless they are comparing his games to those idiotic $5 casual games, which is not even a fair comparison. The games I just listed are a fair comparison.

skavenhorde said:

And Kasper, I'm not personally attacking what you said. I know you said you have no problem with his prices. It's a little frustrating because I have read about this debate many times and I still don't see where people are getting that his prices are too high. Unless they are comparing his games to those idiotic $5 casual games, which is not even a fair comparison. The games I just listed are a fair comparison.

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No offense taken at all.

It's hard to put this down so it comes across just right. But my point is that on the one hand I think his titles are perfectly priced. I mean, if you look at his games in isolation, then $28 is pretty damn cheap and a lot of value for money. That's why I have no problems buying his products myself.

But on the other hand, the competition in this industry is utterly *crushing* for a small indie developer. If I go to my favourite online games store and filter the games to $28 or less, then I get to choose from 1500 PC titles. For the price of Geneforge 5 I could also, for example, get the following:

- All Gothic games AND all Fallout games.
- All Baldurs Gate games
- Arcanum AND Beyond Divinity

.. and many, many more similar titles / combination of titles. When you look at it in this light then it does become harder to argue that Geneforge 5 (even though it's a great game) is *equally good* value for money. These games are all older games, yes, but the Spiderweb games looks and plays like older games as well so I think the comparison is fair. And the combinations I listed above all offers pretty amazing value for money There is simply no way that a small indie developer can compete with such prices, so they'll just need to target a niche market instead (IMO).

All true, except that doesn't apply to people like me who already own those games. They could price it for $1 and it wouldn't matter because I already own it. Geneforge 5 is brand spanking new and still priced reasonably for an indie of it's quality (I mean take a look at Dominions 3. If I didn't get it for a Christmas Present I'm not sure I would of bought it at all. Good thing it comes with that monster sized manual and is as good as they say)

There is one 'but' to my previous statement. If an old game is released again and made playable on a new operating system (like GoG's titles) then I'll buy it again. Unless there is some incentive then like I said they could price it for 1$ and it wouldn't matter to people like me.

You are right in that Jeff needs to target the niche market. He is basically the leader in the old school, rpg, indie genre. However, even within this market, it is split into different groups. I believe, after reading what Dhruin said, Jeff is trying to appease all the different factions within this genre. If you don't know what I mean then just try starting a thread titled "What does RPG mean?" and you will get a thousand and one different opinions In some ways we are like the Democratic Party. Sure we all might be part of the same group, but trying to get us to agree on any one thing is close to impossible

Yeah, I'm with skavenhorde. You're right that if you haven't played some of those games, they represent excellent value. But I played 'em all years ago, so a new Avernum is one of the rare hardcore RPGs I get each year. That makes $28 a good deal.

Dhruin said:

Yeah, I'm with skavenhorde. You're right that if you haven't played some of those games, they represent excellent value. But I played 'em all years ago, so a new Avernum is one of the rare hardcore RPGs I get each year. That makes $28 a good deal.

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Yes, exactly!

But the fact that you own, have played, and probably won *all* the games I listed above (and probably all the other examples that I didn't put on the list) - that makes you a pretty hard-core gamer. A niche customer, turning his eye on a niche market for even more games to play.

And honestly, are you really looking for a more casual RPG experience from Jeffs games? Would you enjoy them, if you breezed through them without really dying or feeling challenged at any point?

KasperFauerby said:

And honestly, are you really looking for a more casual RPG experience from Jeffs games? Would you enjoy them, if you breezed through them without really dying or feeling challenged at any point?

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Do you really think he is actually going to make the games more casual as in 'casual' game type of rpg? I don't think so. Even if he tones down the difficulty I don't think that is possible with his type of games.

It's not a bad decision to make his games have more options in terms of difficulty. It widens his customer base. Take my mother for instance. She actually loves playing RPGs. She is the one that bought me Ultima 3 when I was a kid and she ended up playing it when I wasn't there or a few times we would end up playing till 2 or 3 AM on a school night . But she can't play rpgs on hard at all. She can't even play them on normal. It's just too much for her to handle so she tones it down to easy every single time. If he does what he says he is going to do then she still gets to play the game and live the story and she actually has a chance to survive in the combat portion of the game.

I can see now what Jeff was talking about. Before I only compared it to me. But there is a bigger market even within this niche market if he makes it more accessible to everyone, but still making the game so it still has the option for a more difficult experience. I'm hoping he'll make one series like this and then do something different and maybe a bit harder for another series. Sorta like Avernum being the typical fantasy game where he can make most of his money and then Geneforge being an experiment for the more hardcore crowd looking for something different.

Jeff Vogel talked a lot about the prices of his software in his blog. Just search for it - always very interesting reads!

To sum it up: He makes the prices so that he can make a living out of his games. (That's why he has sales, too.) He does not lower the prices just because he could then "sell more" - because he would have to sell not only more, but also significantly more units (to also get more money, that is). And that's not so easy like just "selling more".

Gareth has an long but interesting comment on this on his blog:
http://scarsofwargame.com/DevBlog/?p=719
I was also interested in his mention of the Gamemaster AI in left4dead - I hadn't heard about it for this game (which hasn't really been on my radar), but the idea is something I have argued about several times here - good to hear this is finally starting to become implemented. In an ideal world you should actually be able to select the "challenge" you want - and the game adjusts its difficulty according to your abilites based on that preference.

GhanBuriGhan said:

and the game adjusts its difficulty according to your abilites based on that preference.

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This idea isn't new. Several years ago I even invented the idea of a self-learning UI.
Which presents things based on what the player uses mostly.

A bit if that idea was implemented in Microsoft's Office 2000 - the menu concentrated on showing what you used most. I just "ported" this idea over to game UIs.

This is how it goes with me and boss battles.
- First time, use usual tactics, hopefully the boss is challenging enough so I die (yes, I enjoy dying the first time)
- 2nd attempt, use better and more boss oriented tactics. Most of the times, I beat the boss in this step.
- Third through… 7th attempt, try different tactics, sit down after a defeat and really try to device a good strategy. This is when I'm having the most fun. If I manage to beat the boss in this stage, it's the apex of gaming ecstasy for me.
- 8th/9th attempt. Here is the dangerous area. If I manage to beat the boss I don't even feel any joy, normally if I beat the boss at this stage it's more because of a lucky streak, after having tried different strategies, and very likely to fail if I try it again.
- 10th attempt. There is no such thing, at this time I'm uninstalling the game.

I don't believe in the" Indy developers & given fanbase" relation , i am a casual gamer who greatly enjoys indy games and a close look to some forums ( evochron series / mount and blade) makes clear that many of the customers come from other genres ( TES or X-series , Freelancer in that case) .

I am always cheating my way into ridiculously level scaled games that i find very hard but still want to play ( like DAO -or other no rewarding rewarding ones ) so no problem with like / dislike and this is not about "feeling badass" but mostly about watching what's next .