Underworld - v1.01 Released

Remember the classic-gaming indie Underworld? Developer Charles writes in to say v1.01 has been released, with improvements taken in part from discussions here on RPGWatch:

The game has considerably evolved, taking into account much of the feedback I read here and other places.
The most visible changes are the UI and the mouse support, but I also upgraded some of the monsters' behavior, put signs above shop doors, tweaked the combat damage algorithm...
You'll find a video on the site that gives a pretty good take of what the game is like now.

Click to expand...

More information.

Played through the demo; I like that there is almost full mouse control, if wanted. I found it more player friendly than Devil's Whiskey.

These kinds of projects make me wish I had more time to play games... As it is now I won't have time to play, and therefore justify buying, a game like this.

Thanks again to rpgwatch for the newsbit!

Santos, I need to know what you mean by that so I looked again for the demo and found a place to download it, but the server is slow (4h at 8kb per second!)

I couldn't find a link on the original site.

SveNitor, it's a good way to take the occasional 30 min break, especially now with the bailout function (F10).

I'm really a terrible salesman

Quite a few people gave me precious feedback last time, I hope they'll come back and do it again! I also need to ask up front if the price is a problem (I bumped it up again to $25)... Perhaps I base my pricing a bit too much on the sweat on my forehead and not enough on objective value?

Well, if you are serious about the feedback, I can offer the following:

1) I meant that it is easier, and has a better "flow", and mouse function than Devil's Whiskey (though, I think DW had incredible artwork and diversity).

2) Yes, I think $25 is a bit steep, especially as I, a demo player, have no idea if the game gets any "deeper" from here on out. There is always a danger when setting your price-point based on "sweat equity", rather than what the market will bare. And, I know that this is a rather taboo subject, but I think most pirates will forgo pirating an indi game do to its low price, as much as they will forgo it for any sort of ethos, and the higher the price, the greater the chances the game will hit "the scene". I don't know for sure, but I think that would worry me, were I a game dev.

3) As for game specific feedback, from the demo, I can suggest:
a) A button to attack first mob in list (so player doesn't need click, pan mouse, click)
b) Full mouse integration (for example, turning in jewels requires the keyboard twice)
c) Set the text delay a bit longer, to give player time to read (i.e. arena victory and during fights)
d) Decrease the chance to miss while assassinating (it just makes sense)
e) Casting is a bit of a pain. Suggestion: allow player to just click name of spell, and don't make them hit "cast" first; extra steps are tedious.

that's all I got, best of luck

Hi Santos,

I don't mind the extra work if it helps me get it right so yes, I take feedback quite seriously. Thanks a lot for yours, there's quite a bit of it!

Piracy may be an issue. Another one that seems very important that you suggested is not knowing if the game gets any deeper. Obviously there is no way to prove that it does (also I'm not sure everyone has the same view of what a deep game is). The main issue I think is that I am new, and that means people don't know and trust my work. In that sense asking people to take a chance at a rather high price may have been too much to ask.

I addressed it both with a price change and a refund guarantee. I'll see how that goes. I considered $15 but being in the eurozone, transaction fees + bank fees + a low $ value makes it pretty difficult for a small niche game. I hope 20 is an acceptable compromise.

I'll have to issue partial refunds again Not just now though. Too tedious for a sunday evening.

Also I rewote part of the site with more emphasis on the story, as well as the combat mechanics (I think a list of individual monsters makes more room for strategy than groups). And I added player friendliness

For the in-game suggestions, I've written them down for v1.02. I did start with an Attack button that went directly for the first monster (MM I&II) but gave up on it. I thought it enticed players to dwell on A. Maybe a rapid fight feature of some sort for the easy battles... Something to think about, I'm undecided for now.

The remaining mouse integration didn't seem all that necessary as it is for punctual exchanges with NPCs and such. I put it lower on the list of priorities...

Text delays can be a bit longer but I have to be careful not to make players wait forever for a list of 10 monsters to finish attacking. For the arena victory I'll do that for v102 because there is more text than in typical fights (and no loot sequence to slow it down).

Also a good call with assassinating.

For the 'C' in casting though when using the keyboard the first step (after'M') is to select the spell level (digit), except if the needed level is 1 (default). Without the C there is no way to tell if the player pressing 2 wants spell #2 of the current level or to switch to spell level 2. But once 'Cast' is selected there is no more room for doubt.

Of course using the mouse this problem doesn't exist.

Thanks again for taking the time, Santos, I greatly appreciate it.

Ah, I see what you mean with the casting. Hmmm. Makes me wonder what the ratio is between keyboard and mouse players. Personally, for a casual game, the less keyboard I need to hit, the better. Casting just felt less fluid than it should have.

I believe that your elaboration on your site may help with concerns of depth. I am a loot whore, so, what really would have driven the point home for me, in the demo, is a larger loot pool. Say, for example, if the mobs could drop items that went beyond what the first store could carry, so players got a sense that there was more to come.

I agree that you do not want to slow down the combat any (though, in DW it went far too quickly for me to read, in default mode), but I swear that, in this game, I had fought many fights before I even noticed that there were even "sound effects" (i.e. BAM!) I also agree that full mouse functionality is lower on the priority list, but it's more about consistency (for example, Borderlands caught a lot of shit because their GUI was inconsistent- some screens needed a mouse click, other, very similar screens, needed keyboard, and you could never tell which was needed).

As for players dwelling on mob A, that’s a tough one. First, in the demo, A is most often the most powerful. Very often A is one of the few a melee player can hit. In single mob situations, A is all there is. And, finally, it only makes sense to focus on one mob at a time, until it's dead, to reduce the number of damaging attacks the player will receive per round, in return. All of these factors, within the existing game design, lend a player to focusing on mob A. Acknowledging this with a button doesn't change the dynamics any (I think), but, rather, just makes life easier for the player.

You obviously put a lot of thought and work into this, I hope it works out financially. It always makes me a little sad to see someone put out a good product in a bad economy.

Hmmm... tending to loot whores... something else to consider. Or perhaps just extend the demo to the catacombs. After all afterwards there is still 85-90% of the gametime to go. Items looted in the catacombs are, for the most part, not available in any store. Also there are quests to complete.

Maybe I've been too stingy with the demo...

v1.02 will focus on sound & music. Not sure they're an integral part of game quality for this type of game but it's fun to play around with (started today, yesterday was mostly R&R).

Yeah, bad economy sucks. Then again it's been bad for what... 35 years now? I don't remember many times when economy was said to be flourishing apart from the late 90s. Point being that if I waited for a good economy to create something I may be blind and senile and that's an even bigger obstacle than a low $

Good attitude. I know that in my neck of the woods, this is a worse economy than any in my memory. I can usually afford at least 1 or 2 games a season- not this year. Anyway, I sent you a PM that I thought might help.

As for stingy, perhaps you can let people into the catacombs, but keep the level cap at 5. Having never been down there, you would know better than I if that would work.

I'm going to post here, since Charles sent me a PM.

Devil Whiskey: Well, Decklin bought out Shifting Sun Studios IIRC and now owns Devil Whiskey along with Demise: Rise of the Ku'utan(sp?). You might try googling "Decklins domain", but the Devil Whiskey site has been up and down since he purchased it and I've no idea if he's still selling it as I haven't checked in, in quite some time. (There used to be a demo as well, but again, no idea what Decklin is doing...)

New UI/art: dunno, I guess that it looks a bit better based on images/video on your site.

You might want to dig up some stuff on Grimoire, a game sort of like Wizardry 7 that has yet to see light of day. What's it been now? Like 12y(more?) of development? Wonder if he'll ever finish/release it...

Dhruin IIRC knows most about it, and had a beta...

We actually have an ongoing Grimoire thread, and I'm the alleged expert on the game since I've played it twice!!

I looked up grimoire here and actually found quite a few threads. Some release announcements back in 2007 and stuff about an NDA that leaves little hope of digging much up at all. I thought the 11 days until release thread was entertaining... Is that the one?

I played the DW demo a bit (got it on cnet) but it crashed and doesn't seem to want to uncrash now. It freezes when I try to start it. cnet doesn't necessarily have the latest update though. I've seen the UI and mechanics enough to see it's a quite different project (Bard's Tale), UW being more MM / Wizardry type.

Although I intended it to be very oldschool, now that I started modernizing it I'm adding sound & music.

I think one of my biggest problems though is the project isn't taken too seriously because I did it on my own.

That's just because y'all don't know I'm a genius yet

I wrote the review on DW back at the Dot years ago. It was a good game, but they messed up what could have become an ongoing franchise and totally P@#$%d me off with their attitude!!